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Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?
Author	Message
raptorak Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:36 am Posts: 1271	Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons? Real Tribes doesn't even have reloading. And getting rid of the passive reload would just be a massive nerf to the mortar and spinfusor, since they are practically useless without quickdraw as it is. No passive reload means clip based weapons (all the autos) get a buff.
Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:33 pm

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4824 Location: NA East	Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons? Sci-fi shooters are about twitch gameplay. Reloading is lolz. L2 quake/unreal/tribes _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:51 pm

caaok Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm Posts: 1110	Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons? Gierling wrote: Wall of text Tribes has always been a twitch shooter at heart. Yes, its former iterations were tactical FPS games and ages ahead of their time in that regard, but combat was largely twitch based. Less so than Quake, but much more so than modern FPS games. Former titles didn't have clips, had much faster weapon switch, and had passive reload. Tribes combat has always been about switching weapons mid-combat to fight with the ideal tools for any given situation (usually Disc/Chain/GL) but this is largely lost on every loadout except Quickdraw soldiers. This is not COD with jetpacks, we don't care about your silly reload timing. _________________ What we lose with hitscan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY
Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:33 pm

Karakara Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 3:28 pm Posts: 187	Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons? Gierling wrote: I've been playing since the beginning of the closed beta, and I have regularly posted on the relevant forums since 1995. (since Tribes1 was a class based sidescrolling action game named FEAR). Which probably doesn't mean anything, but since we are making people verify thier credentials it is apparantly necessary. I tend to think that passive reload is shenannigans, and should be removed. It discourages strategic thinking and encourages twitch gameplay. Throughout the games development there has been a very vocal group which has called for more "Skill" based play using a very narrow definition of skill... namely manual dexterity and reflexes. This has been to the detriment of those who posess analytical planning and strategic understanding "skill". To be frank, removing the players ability to be caught unprepared in a situation which does not favor thier current equipment hollows out the gameplay experience by catering to a small subset of playstyles. Superior Strategy needs to be a counterbalance to superior physical skill within the game, becoming "good" at the game should require relatively even amounts of both. Also, one should be able to counter for a deficiency in one with a surplus of the other only to a degree. I can not mention enough how damaging this is to the core gameplay and community of Tribes, TRIBES WAS NOT POPULARIZED AS A TWITCH GAME! Tribes original appeal was as one of the first true team oriented shooters, which allowed people to contribute to thier teams success relatively independent of individual twitch skills. Way back in the day when Quake was king there were lots of players who wanted a game that they could do something meaningful in without having preternatural reflexes. Suddenly along comes Tribes and you can be essential to your teams victory without ever shooting an enemy (placing mines, repairing, piloting vehicles etc). A lot of people were attracted to that, and a vast community sprang up (Which eventually produced a healthy and robust competitive scene). I digress however, my point remains that changing the game to emphasize pixel perfect aim, twitch reflexes and more traditional shooter skills over strategic planning, tactical acumen and thorough knowledge of game mechanics is damaging to the game and the community by rewarding a small, vocal (and self important) subset of players. You may hate to lose a fight because you got into a situation you weren't prepared for. Especially to an "Inferior" player. However if you change the game to remove such situations the "Inferior" players are not going to just stand around and let you hit them in the face repeatedly. They are just going to leave. If you remove the ability to counter superior skill with superior strategy you basically just tell a large swath of the community that they are less important across the board, and they are going to get discouraged, and they are going to stop playing. Very good post. This guy knows what hes talking about. Theres no way I could have said it any better on all counts. +1 - Anyway, like the above quote mentioned, a game should be balanced between the two; twitching and actual strategy. Passive reloading is a small strategic thing that I think TA needs more of. It adds sorely lacking depth, if even just a tad. Im surprised so many people are against it. BTW, Im not opposed to games that do not require reloading... just make all the weapons clipless then; dont try and play both sides at once. It doesnt make any sense.
Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:00 pm

Pittyswains Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am Posts: 2120	Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons? It should be noted, since people are bitching that old tribes didn't have reload, that T1 and T2 actually did have reload functions built in. The difference was that the game forced you to reload before allowing you to switch guns. This could be bypassed if you were willing to ditch your gun in order to switch guns. An example: Using your Shock Lance entailed a long reload, that ditching it after a shot was a common thing to see. Tribes Vengeance introduced the passive reload IIRC. _________________ shayd wrote: Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun
Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:29 pm

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4824 Location: NA East	Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons? That's not reloading. That's just the shot fire resolution. Even quake does that. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:51 pm

Oroibahazopi Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:26 pm Posts: 1139	Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons? Twitch gameplay in tribes? lol
Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:52 am

Pittyswains Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am Posts: 2120	Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons? -AEnubis- wrote: That's not reloading. That's just the shot fire resolution. Even quake does that. There's really no difference, besides animation. _________________ shayd wrote: Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun
Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:12 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4824 Location: NA East	Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons? There is a significant difference, especially in weapons when you don't have a clip. The point of a "Rate of Fire" is to keep an individual weapon consistent, acknowledging the idea that weapon switching is a skill. If a weapon has an automated process for each round, like most semi automatic weapons do, then it doesn't need to be in your hand to resolve that process. In UT2003, you could fire lightning, switch to rockets, fire rockets, and get back to your lightning gun before you were able to shoot it again. The important thing was, you weren't able to fire lightning any faster than if you hadn't switched weapons. Having the talent to switch between weapons, adjust your aim for the new weapon, hit anything, and get back to that weapon in time for the next available shot was skill. The idea of having to watch your weapon prep the next round, or reload in a sci-fi shooter is defeating the point of it being a sci-fi shooter. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:14 am

naokomoon Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:41 am Posts: 135	Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons? caaok wrote: Tribes has always been a twitch shooter at heart. Yes, its former iterations were tactical FPS games and ages ahead of their time in that regard, but combat was largely twitch based. Less so than Quake, but much more so than modern FPS games. Really now, how so? Even highlight reels of T1/T2 involve aiming/leading targets before firing- none of that snap to your target and fire as fast as one can blink like a modern fps. The only twitch shooting you see frequently in T1/T2 is with the sniper rifle. Perhaps we are working with different definitions of "Twitch"; for me, Twitch gameplay essentially refers to games which require extremely fast response time. Modern shooters (CoD/BF/whatever) require far faster reaction time than T1/T2 since a fatal bullet exchange lasts a whole 0.2 seconds from the moment someone pops out of cover. In Tribes, you will typically see your opponent coming out of the fog and have time to aim/predict his movements for seconds before a disc is ever launched. _________________
Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:40 am

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Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

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raptorak

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:36 am
Posts: 1271

Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

Real Tribes doesn't even have reloading.

And getting rid of the passive reload would just be a massive nerf to the mortar and spinfusor, since they are practically useless without quickdraw as it is.

No passive reload means clip based weapons (all the autos) get a buff.

Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:33 pm

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4824
Location: NA East

Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

Sci-fi shooters are about twitch gameplay.

Reloading is lolz. L2 quake/unreal/tribes

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:51 pm

caaok

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 1110

Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

Gierling wrote:

Wall of text

Tribes has always been a twitch shooter at heart. Yes, its former iterations were tactical FPS games and ages ahead of their time in that regard, but combat was largely twitch based. Less so than Quake, but much more so than modern FPS games. Former titles didn't have clips, had much faster weapon switch, and had passive reload. Tribes combat has always been about switching weapons mid-combat to fight with the ideal tools for any given situation (usually Disc/Chain/GL) but this is largely lost on every loadout except Quickdraw soldiers. This is not COD with jetpacks, we don't care about your silly reload timing.

_________________
What we lose with hitscan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY

Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:33 pm

Karakara

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 187

Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

Gierling wrote:

I've been playing since the beginning of the closed beta, and I have regularly posted on the relevant forums since 1995. (since Tribes1 was a class based sidescrolling action game named FEAR). Which probably doesn't mean anything, but since we are making people verify thier credentials it is apparantly necessary.

I tend to think that passive reload is shenannigans, and should be removed. It discourages strategic thinking and encourages twitch gameplay. Throughout the games development there has been a very vocal group which has called for more "Skill" based play using a very narrow definition of skill... namely manual dexterity and reflexes.

This has been to the detriment of those who posess analytical planning and strategic understanding "skill".

To be frank, removing the players ability to be caught unprepared in a situation which does not favor thier current equipment hollows out the gameplay experience by catering to a small subset of playstyles.

Superior Strategy needs to be a counterbalance to superior physical skill within the game, becoming "good" at the game should require relatively even amounts of both. Also, one should be able to counter for a deficiency in one with a surplus of the other only to a degree.

I can not mention enough how damaging this is to the core gameplay and community of Tribes, TRIBES WAS NOT POPULARIZED AS A TWITCH GAME! Tribes original appeal was as one of the first true team oriented shooters, which allowed people to contribute to thier teams success relatively independent of individual twitch skills. Way back in the day when Quake was king there were lots of players who wanted a game that they could do something meaningful in without having preternatural reflexes. Suddenly along comes Tribes and you can be essential to your teams victory without ever shooting an enemy (placing mines, repairing, piloting vehicles etc). A lot of people were attracted to that, and a vast community sprang up (Which eventually produced a healthy and robust competitive scene).

I digress however, my point remains that changing the game to emphasize pixel perfect aim, twitch reflexes and more traditional shooter skills over strategic planning, tactical acumen and thorough knowledge of game mechanics is damaging to the game and the community by rewarding a small, vocal (and self important) subset of players.

You may hate to lose a fight because you got into a situation you weren't prepared for. Especially to an "Inferior" player. However if you change the game to remove such situations the "Inferior" players are not going to just stand around and let you hit them in the face repeatedly. They are just going to leave.

If you remove the ability to counter superior skill with superior strategy you basically just tell a large swath of the community that they are less important across the board, and they are going to get discouraged, and they are going to stop playing.

Very good post. This guy knows what hes talking about.

Theres no way I could have said it any better on all counts.

+1

-

Anyway, like the above quote mentioned, a game should be balanced between the two; twitching and actual strategy. Passive reloading is a small strategic thing that I think TA needs more of. It adds sorely lacking depth, if even just a tad. Im surprised so many people are against it.

BTW, Im not opposed to games that do not require reloading... just make all the weapons clipless then; dont try and play both sides at once. It doesnt make any sense.

Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:00 pm

Pittyswains

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 2120

Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

It should be noted, since people are bitching that old tribes didn't have reload, that T1 and T2 actually did have reload functions built in. The difference was that the game forced you to reload before allowing you to switch guns. This could be bypassed if you were willing to ditch your gun in order to switch guns.

An example: Using your Shock Lance entailed a long reload, that ditching it after a shot was a common thing to see.

Tribes Vengeance introduced the passive reload IIRC.

_________________

shayd wrote:

Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun

Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:29 pm

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4824
Location: NA East

Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

That's not reloading. That's just the shot fire resolution. Even quake does that.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:51 pm

Oroibahazopi

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:26 pm
Posts: 1139

Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

Twitch gameplay in tribes? lol

Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:52 am

Pittyswains

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 2120

Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

-AEnubis- wrote:

That's not reloading. That's just the shot fire resolution. Even quake does that.

There's really no difference, besides animation.

_________________

shayd wrote:

Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:12 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4824
Location: NA East

Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

There is a significant difference, especially in weapons when you don't have a clip.

The point of a "Rate of Fire" is to keep an individual weapon consistent, acknowledging the idea that weapon switching is a skill. If a weapon has an automated process for each round, like most semi automatic weapons do, then it doesn't need to be in your hand to resolve that process.

In UT2003, you could fire lightning, switch to rockets, fire rockets, and get back to your lightning gun before you were able to shoot it again. The important thing was, you weren't able to fire lightning any faster than if you hadn't switched weapons. Having the talent to switch between weapons, adjust your aim for the new weapon, hit anything, and get back to that weapon in time for the next available shot was skill. The idea of having to watch your weapon prep the next round, or reload in a sci-fi shooter is defeating the point of it being a sci-fi shooter.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:14 am

naokomoon

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:41 am
Posts: 135

Re: Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?

caaok wrote:

Really now, how so? Even highlight reels of T1/T2 involve aiming/leading targets before firing- none of that *snap to your target and fire as fast as one can blink* like a modern fps. The only twitch shooting you see frequently in T1/T2 is with the sniper rifle.

Perhaps we are working with different definitions of "Twitch"; for me, Twitch gameplay essentially refers to games which require extremely fast response time. Modern shooters (CoD/BF/whatever) require far faster reaction time than T1/T2 since a fatal bullet exchange lasts a whole 0.2 seconds from the moment someone pops out of cover. In Tribes, you will typically see your opponent coming out of the fog and have time to aim/predict his movements for seconds before a disc is ever launched.

_________________

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:40 am

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Remove passive auto reload when switching weapons?