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Pitifull attempt to fix autos!
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raptorak Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:36 am Posts: 1271	Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos! Yep, autos are still OP by their very nature as automatic weapons. If jetting and gravity were stronger, things might be different. As it stands, there are only a few options for balancing. 1. Increase explosives reload speed 25%, projectille speed 25%. 2. Nerf auto damage 40% (pretty sad). 3. Improve jetting and gravity, increase resistance to autos based on armour class, air resistance to slow down the pathfinders, increased disk jump efficiency, increase all player health 50%, +20% projectile speed on all explosives.
Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:01 am

Pittyswains Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am Posts: 2120	Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos! GIVE THE AUTOS MOTHER EFFIN INHERITANCE. They'll always be too easy to aim without that one little change. _________________ shayd wrote: Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun
Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:44 am

CreativeConstraints Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:17 am Posts: 1193	Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos! They will actually be easier to aim with 100% inheritance. See: Every tribes game not T:A.
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:08 am

Pittyswains Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am Posts: 2120	Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos! CreativeConstraints wrote: They will actually be easier to aim with 100% inheritance. See: Every tribes game not T:A. They will be easier in certain situations, much of the time they will be more difficult. Are you that dense, or have you not played any of the other tribes games? Riddle me this, is aiming a gun with one variable easier, or one with two variables? HMMM _________________ shayd wrote: Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:10 am

CreativeConstraints Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:17 am Posts: 1193	Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos! With one of course, which is exactly why it is easier to aim with 100% when using a weapon that requires pinpoint-precision. With 100% the only variable factor I need to account for is the relative velocity/direction difference between myself and the target. With the current situation, I need to account for my own speed's effect on the bullet velocity, as well as the velocities of me and my target. How is the later easier than the former when it adds one more fluctuating variable to the equation of determinating a lead?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:24 am

Pittyswains Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am Posts: 2120	Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos! You sir, have no idea how inheritance works. CreativeConstraints wrote: With one of course, which is exactly why it is easier to aim with 100% when using a weapon that requires pinpoint-precision. Least you got that right. CreativeConstraints wrote: With 100% the only variable factor I need to account for is the relative velocity/direction difference between myself and the target. That's 2 variables you have to keep track of, you're just combining them into a sum and convincing yourself it's 1. You have to feel how your own speed affects your bullet, as well as how much lead you need to add/subtract according to the enemy's movement. This results in the total difference between the two players. CreativeConstraints wrote: With the current situation, I need to account for my own speed's effect on the bullet velocity, as well as the velocities of me and my target. With the current system, you only have to keep track of one variable. That would be the enemy's trajectory. If the guy I'm shooting at is moving 50km/h to the right and I have to aim 1 cm in front of him to hit while I'm standing still, then how far should I lead my gun if I'm moving in any other direction? I'll give you a hint, it's 1 cm in front of the enemy no matter how fast or in what direction you're moving. Also, what you described is actually 100% inheritance. _________________ shayd wrote: Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:38 am

DrNope Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:04 am Posts: 296	Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos! If the goal is to make autos finishers and chasing weapons, ...why not doing something like this: (except for: hirez no want ) move all autos except for DMB chain to secondary slot -> explosives are always primary (for the tech that needs two weapons, too... return the repairpack for all classes, give tech a better one, use the dispensers to chage to default repair pack... and yes, the pack comes with the gun, so we can even keep the repair gun models) removing damage falloff from autos reduce hitbox size to bullet size... (having a bigger hitbox than a disc is really odd for a bullet, if thats still the case) restrict available ammo instead (2 mags or sth. like ~60-100 bullets max, nugget gives back like 8 to 15 bullets or one third of a magazine, so theres no easy refill) - again with exception of DMB who needs the chain as primary to fill his role, maybe nerf damage a little here ... heavier autos have more ammo, lighter autos have less 100% inheritance (the chain had this in the first three tribes games for a reason... but hirez stated that this discussion is over and they won't do it ) highly welcome: remove screen/shake and screen cracking for ALL weapons (the red flash and sound should be enough for damage indication) Effect: Better for chasing at high speeds (better aiming on parallel routes and dealing normal damage over large distances) People need to spare bullets for hitting cappers or deny regen Skillless spamming is punished (every bullet counts) Everyone has to stick to slow projectile weapons except for chasing and finishing! _________________ Ingame: DrNoes Credits alternative Fix Fusion Mortar physics Give autos their role as finishers and for chasing
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:44 am

Pittyswains Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am Posts: 2120	Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos! DrNope wrote: []100% inheritance (the chain had this in the first three tribes games for a reason... but hirez stated that this discussion is over and they won't do it ) HOLY f THEY ACTUALLY SAID THAT? Are you sure they didn't mean the discussion was over for projectiles? If this is the case then holy f*, I've just lost a lot of faith in HR. _________________ shayd wrote: Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun
Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:03 am

DrNope Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:04 am Posts: 296	Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos! Pittyswains wrote: DrNope wrote: []100% inheritance (the chain had this in the first three tribes games for a reason... but hirez stated that this discussion is over and they won't do it ) HOLY f** THEY ACTUALLY SAID THAT? IIRC, after the 200+ pages inheritance thread... (still hoping it just was a rumor, at least for autos, don't have much problem with it for the rest) _________________ Ingame: DrNoes Credits alternative Fix Fusion Mortar physics Give autos their role as finishers and for chasing Last edited by DrNope on Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:07 am

Fingon Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:55 pm Posts: 1467	Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos! DrNope wrote: If the goal is to make autos finishers and chasing weapons, ...why not doing something like this: (except for: hirez no want ) move all autos except for DMB chain to secondary slot -> explosives are always primary (for the tech that needs two weapons, too... return the repairpack for all classes, give tech a better one, use the dispensers to chage to default repair pack... and yes, the pack comes with the gun, so we can even keep the repair gun models) removing damage falloff from autos reduce hitbox size to bullet size... (having a bigger hitbox than a disc is really odd for a bullet, if thats still the case) restrict available ammo instead (2 mags or sth. like ~60-100 bullets max, nugget gives back like 8 to 15 bullets or one third of a magazine, so theres no easy refill) - again with exception of DMB who needs the chain as primary to fill his role, maybe nerf damage a little here ... heavier autos have more ammo, lighter autos have less 100% inheritance (the chain had this in the first three tribes games for a reason... but hirez stated that this discussion is over and they won't do it ) highly welcome: remove screen/shake and screen cracking for ALL weapons (the red flash and sound should be enough for damage indication) Better for chasing at high speeds (better aiming on parallel routes and dealing normal damage over large distances) People need to spare bullets for hitting cappers or deny regen Skillless spamming is punished (every bullet counts) Everyone has to stick to slow projectile weapons except for chasing and finishing! In my opinion that's how auto's should be used. Then again there are so many auto lovers on this forum that I can't ever see something like this happening. What I'd also like to see is removing the auto of non-essential classes like the raider. What does the raider need an auto for? He's disruption and asset destruction. Wouldn't a shotgun fit his role far far better? the juggernaut should be outdoor disruption, the brute indoor, and the raider should be the in-between class with the advantage of the jammer pack for turrets and so on. But this won't ever happen. Call me cynical, call me bitter, but when discussing on this forum I've lost all faith in the community on the topic of fixing auto's. Effect: _________________ Please support the cause for better CTF PUB games! TOP forum Thread Fingon's montages http://www.twitch.tv/Fingonar -Fingon, Flamboyant Teammember.
Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:07 am

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Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

Author

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raptorak

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:36 am
Posts: 1271

Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

Yep, autos are still OP by their very nature as automatic weapons.

If jetting and gravity were stronger, things might be different. As it stands, there are only a few options for balancing.

1. Increase explosives reload speed 25%, projectille speed 25%.

2. Nerf auto damage 40% (pretty sad).

3. Improve jetting and gravity, increase resistance to autos based on armour class, air resistance to slow down the pathfinders, increased disk jump efficiency, increase all player health 50%, +20% projectile speed on all explosives.

Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:01 am

Pittyswains

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 2120

Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

GIVE THE AUTOS MOTHER EFFIN INHERITANCE. They'll always be too easy to aim without that one little change.

_________________

shayd wrote:

Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun

Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:44 am

CreativeConstraints

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:17 am
Posts: 1193

Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

They will actually be easier to aim with 100% inheritance.

See: Every tribes game not T:A.

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:08 am

Pittyswains

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 2120

Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

CreativeConstraints wrote:

They will actually be easier to aim with 100% inheritance.

See: Every tribes game not T:A.

They will be easier in certain situations, much of the time they will be more difficult. Are you that dense, or have you not played any of the other tribes games?

Riddle me this, is aiming a gun with one variable easier, or one with two variables? HMMM

_________________

shayd wrote:

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:10 am

CreativeConstraints

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:17 am
Posts: 1193

Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

With one of course, which is exactly why it is easier to aim with 100% when using a weapon that requires pinpoint-precision.

With 100% the only variable factor I need to account for is the relative velocity/direction difference between myself and the target.

With the current situation, I need to account for my own speed's effect on the bullet velocity, as well as the velocities of me and my target.

How is the later easier than the former when it adds one more fluctuating variable to the equation of determinating a lead?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:24 am

Pittyswains

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 2120

Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

You sir, have no idea how inheritance works.

CreativeConstraints wrote:

With one of course, which is exactly why it is easier to aim with 100% when using a weapon that requires pinpoint-precision.

Least you got that right.

CreativeConstraints wrote:

With 100% the only variable factor I need to account for is the relative velocity/direction difference between myself and the target.

That's 2 variables you have to keep track of, you're just combining them into a sum and convincing yourself it's 1. You have to feel how your own speed affects your bullet, as well as how much lead you need to add/subtract according to the enemy's movement. This results in the total difference between the two players.

CreativeConstraints wrote:

With the current situation, I need to account for my own speed's effect on the bullet velocity, as well as the velocities of me and my target.

With the current system, you only have to keep track of one variable. That would be the enemy's trajectory. If the guy I'm shooting at is moving 50km/h to the right and I have to aim 1 cm in front of him to hit while I'm standing still, then how far should I lead my gun if I'm moving in any other direction? I'll give you a hint, it's 1 cm in front of the enemy no matter how fast or in what direction you're moving.

Also, what you described is actually 100% inheritance.

_________________

shayd wrote:

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:38 am

DrNope

Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:04 am
Posts: 296

Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

If the goal is to make autos finishers and chasing weapons, ...why not doing something like this:
(except for: hirez no want :lol:

)

move all autos except for DMB chain to secondary slot -> explosives are always primary
(for the tech that needs two weapons, too... return the repairpack for all classes, give tech a better one, use the dispensers to chage to default repair pack... and yes, the pack comes with the gun, so we can even keep the repair gun models)
removing damage falloff from autos
reduce hitbox size to bullet size... (having a bigger hitbox than a disc is really odd for a bullet, if thats still the case)
restrict available ammo instead (2 mags or sth. like ~60-100 bullets max, nugget gives back like 8 to 15 bullets or one third of a magazine, so theres no easy refill) - again with exception of DMB who needs the chain as primary to fill his role, maybe nerf damage a little here ... heavier autos have more ammo, lighter autos have less
100% inheritance (the chain had this in the first three tribes games for a reason... but hirez stated that this discussion is over and they won't do it )
highly welcome: remove screen/shake and screen cracking for ALL weapons (the red flash and sound should be enough for damage indication)

Effect:

Better for chasing at high speeds (better aiming on parallel routes and dealing normal damage over large distances)
People need to spare bullets for hitting cappers or deny regen
Skillless spamming is punished (every bullet counts)
Everyone has to stick to slow projectile weapons except for chasing and finishing!

_________________
Ingame: DrNoes
Credits alternative
Fix Fusion Mortar physics
Give autos their role as finishers and for chasing

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:44 am

Pittyswains

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 2120

Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

DrNope wrote:

[*]100% inheritance (the chain had this in the first three tribes games for a reason... but hirez stated that this discussion is over and they won't do it :cry:

)

HOLY f*** THEY ACTUALLY SAID THAT? Are you sure they didn't mean the discussion was over for projectiles? If this is the case then holy f***, I've just lost a lot of faith in HR.

_________________

shayd wrote:

Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:03 am

DrNope

Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:04 am
Posts: 296

Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

Pittyswains wrote:

DrNope wrote:

[*]100% inheritance (the chain had this in the first three tribes games for a reason... but hirez stated that this discussion is over and they won't do it :cry:

)

HOLY f*** THEY ACTUALLY SAID THAT?

IIRC, after the 200+ pages inheritance thread... (still hoping it just was a rumor, at least for autos, don't have much problem with it for the rest)

_________________
Ingame: DrNoes
Credits alternative
Fix Fusion Mortar physics
Give autos their role as finishers and for chasing

Last edited by DrNope on Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:07 am

Fingon

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:55 pm
Posts: 1467

Re: Pitifull attempt to fix autos!

DrNope wrote:

If the goal is to make autos finishers and chasing weapons, ...why not doing something like this:
(except for: hirez no want :lol:

)

move all autos except for DMB chain to secondary slot -> explosives are always primary
(for the tech that needs two weapons, too... return the repairpack for all classes, give tech a better one, use the dispensers to chage to default repair pack... and yes, the pack comes with the gun, so we can even keep the repair gun models)
removing damage falloff from autos
reduce hitbox size to bullet size... (having a bigger hitbox than a disc is really odd for a bullet, if thats still the case)
restrict available ammo instead (2 mags or sth. like ~60-100 bullets max, nugget gives back like 8 to 15 bullets or one third of a magazine, so theres no easy refill) - again with exception of DMB who needs the chain as primary to fill his role, maybe nerf damage a little here ... heavier autos have more ammo, lighter autos have less
100% inheritance (the chain had this in the first three tribes games for a reason... but hirez stated that this discussion is over and they won't do it )
highly welcome: remove screen/shake and screen cracking for ALL weapons (the red flash and sound should be enough for damage indication)

Better for chasing at high speeds (better aiming on parallel routes and dealing normal damage over large distances)
People need to spare bullets for hitting cappers or deny regen
Skillless spamming is punished (every bullet counts)
Everyone has to stick to slow projectile weapons except for chasing and finishing!

In my opinion that's how auto's should be used. Then again there are so many auto lovers on this forum that I can't ever see something like this happening. What I'd also like to see is removing the auto of non-essential classes like the raider. What does the raider need an auto for? He's disruption and asset destruction. Wouldn't a shotgun fit his role far far better? the juggernaut should be outdoor disruption, the brute indoor, and the raider should be the in-between class with the advantage of the jammer pack for turrets and so on.

But this won't ever happen. Call me cynical, call me bitter, but when discussing on this forum I've lost all faith in the community on the topic of fixing auto's.
Effect:

_________________

Please support the cause for better CTF PUB games!
TOP forum Thread
Fingon's montages
http://www.twitch.tv/Fingonar
-Fingon, Flamboyant Teammember.

Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:07 am

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Pitifull attempt to fix autos!