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Do sentinels really add to the experience?
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MrLordcaptain Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm Posts: 654	Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience? Fingon wrote: MrLordcaptain wrote: So I started playing SEN the last few days. I am not good but I can make it to the mid of the scoreboard. The main thing with SEN is that they're in a game that relies on movement instead of cover to evade being hit and SEN have a hitscan weapon. Its rather hard to learn going againt a 250 sanic capper that goes for a back to front but the main problem is that missing is only due to the failure of the SEN, the PTH can do nothing about it (beside strafe, which most do anyways). tl;dr I admire the skill of good snipers but a hitscan long range weapon shouldn't be in a non cover fast paste shooter. Give them long range projectile weapons and energy draining pistols. Make them Sentinels not Snipers. They will most likely get a projectile sniper of some sort. However Hi-rez have claimed that there is trouble with creating really fast projectiles in this engine. Well they are other ways to create a light defense class; adding long range projectile only helps if they remove bxt and phase. _________________ Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns
Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:32 am

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience? Naota wrote: If it stays, it's in dire need of a far more limited maximum range/falloff (no base-to-base sniping from the spawn platforms on Crossfire). IMO more of a particular defect in the Crossfire map than in the gameplay rules. _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:42 am

Katuiros Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:47 pm Posts: 81	Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience? A good sentinel is the only real answer to enemy cappers. _________________
Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:54 am

DrEuthanasia Beta Tester Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm Posts: 1101	Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience? Fingon wrote: In the last week I've had maybe 2 matches with cappers going below 300 km/h. That maybe because i play against friends quite often who can cap properly. of course it's not that hard to kill cappers going 150-200. Then again I can chase them down with a juggernaut at leisure at those speeds. The sentinel is the only defence against 300+ cappers once they have the flag. Now the load time of a full 500 shot is 5 seconds therefore my calculation of 15 seconds is slightly skewed because you might have a shot loaded beforehand. However considering a busy 16v16 with proper players this often isn't the case due to either a large amount of capper and/or disruption. It's wrong to balance things around the mediocre players because this will make good players unstoppable. Now I agree that sentinels are not fun to fight against. however untill they find a way to stop proper cappers with anything other then a sentinel... (once he has the flag of course. I main Soldier flag defence, so I won't be letting the pesky buggers go off in a hurry!) You won't find me arguing that 300+ cappers are something that anyone besides Sentinels can deal with once they leave the stand, but that doesn't stop me from hating both of them for a variety of reasons. I understand that no resolution to the problem exists which doesn't involve nerfing both unstoppable caps and unstoppable hitscan attacks, but again, this is a Sentinel thread. I'm obligated to only propose solutions to the problem which are also relevant to the discussion at hand, even if they paint an incomplete picture. It is wrong to balance things around mediocre players, but here exists a problem which cannot be mitigated by skill. No matter how good you are, a Sentinel will hit you if you are within his line of sight and his aim is sufficient. There are no effective methods to avoid line of sight (especially at high speeds, but low speeds are hardly better off), and no methods at all to interfere with another player's aim, so the problem is only worsened by increasing the general skill level. Pubs suffer the least, and the problem is universal, although its solution will create its own repercussions that must be solved in turn - we seem to agree on this, if nothing else. The first question we have to answer is "How can we nerf Sentinels effectively, in a way which makes the class at least as desirable to play as it is now?". From there we can move on to "How do we limit or weaken the now-uncontested flag capping methods that will result from these nerfs?"
Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:02 am

Naota Beta Tester Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:21 pm Posts: 160	Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience? MrLordcaptain wrote: Well they are other ways to create a light defense class; adding long range projectile only helps if they remove bxt and phase. Absolutely true - they would need to rework both of the existing rifles or nothing would change. As long as it gives non-capper classes some sort of reasonable counterplay beyond just never going outside/through the open I'd be happy. Katuiros wrote: A good sentinel is the only real answer to enemy cappers. It is, and this just as much of a problem. Both cappers and Sentinels need serious attention because they have far too much influence on the outcome of the game without any opportunity for skilled counterplay. hvcterr wrote: Naota wrote: If it stays, it's in dire need of a far more limited maximum range/falloff (no base-to-base sniping from the spawn platforms on Crossfire). IMO more of a particular defect in the Crossfire map than in the gameplay rules. It is, and Crossfire is a humdinger of an awkward map in several other ways, but the issue of snipers covering the entire map from one practically unassailable spot exists in many other maps as well. You have it in both spawn towers on Drydock, just about any outer dune or base structure on Sunstar, dozens of hills and towers on Raindance, the upper levels of the Temple Ruins base, and any of the big outer set pieces on Tartarus. Crossfire is simply the most egregious example. If you were to make these less convenient, Sentinels would still find tall hills and geometry with a commanding view and oppress the entire level - it would simply take them 5-10 seconds longer to get there. That's helpful for anyone playing 100% dedicated sniper hunter to set them back further, but it doesn't really solve the problem of their unavoidable level-wide influence.
Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:18 am

ponyhof Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:35 pm Posts: 318	Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience? DrEuthanasia wrote: It's not fun to watch them come back a mere 5 seconds after you do manage to kill them, only to get shot and repeat the process all over again. welcome to a shooter game, where one respawns after getting killed. Btw. this doesnt apply only to sentinels. DrEuthanasia wrote: People leave servers to escape a good Sentinel - that tells me all that I need to know Me too leaves servers if the enemy team is too good because it isnt fun. I'm sure its a massive reason to nerf something... HazzleHOF wrote: Actually, I think it would be better if we simply implemented global naked spawns. Why? 'Cause it'd nerf Sents not only sents, it nerfs everyone. Have fun retaking your base against 5 self-healing heavies and gen down. FreaK367 wrote: They ruin duels that they aren't even involved in as soon they shoot, they ARE involved DrEuthanasia wrote: Players sail through the air in slow (from your perspective, of course) parabolic arcs, and since you yourself are all but immune to retaliation and your weapon fires so quickly, there's no real need to sweat the small mistakes. well, then dont fly high arcs if a good sniper is present. This only shows why we need effective sentinels in the game, to prevent 300km/h cappers arcing in the air freely with impunity. This should not happen. In the end sentinels slow down cappers and they kill cappers. Its a welcome thing.
Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:23 am

SoundGuy Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:55 am Posts: 1097	Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience? Katuiros wrote: A good sentinel is the only real answer to enemy cappers. THIS being true, also tells you all you need to know why the Sent needs fixing. It's sooo powerful that it is the ONLY thing to stop/slow down the "Best/fastest" cappers. So what does it do to the rest of the players and playing experience? It tells you that there is other things to fix in the game. Cap/Chase (among other things) Which isn't new to Comp Scene or Pubbers!
Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:17 am

IronKane Beta Tester Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 497	Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience? I'll say it again: Give the Sentinel a non-lethal, route interrupting, energy sapping weapon. Call it an EMP bullet or ElectroShock bullet or whatever. Turn it into a purely defensive role that requires working with others to stop the cappers from getting away. He can keep his Falcon for short-mid range fighting/self defense.
Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:26 pm

DrEuthanasia Beta Tester Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm Posts: 1101	Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience? ponyhof wrote: welcome to a shooter game, where one respawns after getting killed. Btw. this doesnt apply only to sentinels. Yes, but everyone else is limited by range. Killing them forces them to wait 5 seconds, and then however long it takes for them to reach the area you were fighting in. If it was just the two of you, your health has ample time to regenerate between the first and second confrontation with a dedicated defender. If you kill someone following a capper, they've lost their only chance because the distance and momentum they'll lose as a result cannot be regained fast enough. ponyhof wrote: Me too leaves servers if the enemy team is too good because it isnt fun. I'm sure its a massive reason to nerf something... I don't leave servers if the enemy team has a good Soldier who kicks my ass in duels every time I fight him, I just avoid that Soldier. I don't feel the need to quit the game because he doesn't have a personal vendetta against me and it's a simple matter to stay out of his way and leave fighting him to the rest of my team. No such luck with a Sentinel - they see you everywhere and they won't miss. ponyhof wrote: HazzleHOF wrote: Actually, I think it would be better if we simply implemented global naked spawns. Why? 'Cause it'd nerf Sents not only sents, it nerfs everyone. Have fun retaking your base against 5 self-healing heavies and gen down. I've never once seen this become a problem in a naked spawn server. Call-in inventory stations still work, after all, so even if the enemy is dedicated enough to put five heavies in your basement, they can be safely ignored most of the time. Unfortunately, this also means that Sentinels are hardly affected by the generator being down, so there is that. ponyhof wrote: FreaK367 wrote: They ruin duels that they aren't even involved in as soon they shoot, they ARE involved Yeah, I'm sure that if I were to go out and shoot one of two fencers practicing against each other, my "involvement" would be much appreciated by both of them. What you say is true in a literal sense, but the expectation in any fight is that you'll be able to fight back against everyone participating in it. This might not be a reasonable expectation in a realistic setting, but the purpose of this game is for people to have fun playing it. ponyhof wrote: well, then dont fly high arcs if a good sniper is present. This only shows why we need effective sentinels in the game, to prevent 300km/h cappers arcing in the air freely with impunity. This should not happen. In the end sentinels slow down cappers and they kill cappers. Its a welcome thing. Or we could just prevent 300 km/h cappers by nerfing them and Sentinels so that the other 7 classes in this game can once again have something to contribute. Not to mention that Sentinels slow down and kill a whole lot more than just cappers - they do that to absolutely everyone, and it's only justified against cappers because they are the only possible solution.
Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:55 pm

Melanious Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:22 pm Posts: 1991 Location: NA West	Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience? Quote: I'll say it again: Give the Sentinel a non-lethal, route interrupting, energy sapping weapon. Call it an EMP bullet or ElectroShock bullet or whatever. Turn it into a purely defensive role that requires working with others to stop the cappers from getting away. He can keep his Falcon for short-mid range fighting/self defense. Right? I'm not sure why everyone is ignoring this.. its a win win all around except for the sent's kill score at the end (oh darn). If they are worried about points at the end throw some awards at them for hitting fc with a charge shot or whatever.. This is really the simplest solution that keeps the team play aspect of the sniper in while limiting fast caps still.. and your team chaser will get some more fun rather then watching the capper touch ground once at 300+ for your one nitron chance. This is also fun (though more difficult) for the capper as if he is slowed he might have to put up a fight for the flag or toss it to a mid soldier to go the rest of the way. Also really.. just put a 200 sanic cap on flag holding and capping/chasing fixed, really.. if they implemented this without damage nerfing sniper even it'd be more fun for everyone (pub and comp) and comp could just ban sentinel altogether as they do with other OP things in game that doesn't mesh. _________________ Unstoppable Mid Air Disks - NA West
Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:17 pm

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Do sentinels really add to the experience?

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MrLordcaptain

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm
Posts: 654

Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience?

Fingon wrote:

MrLordcaptain wrote:

So I started playing SEN the last few days. I am not good but I can make it to the mid of the scoreboard. The main thing with SEN is that they're in a game that relies on movement instead of cover to evade being hit and SEN have a hitscan weapon.
Its rather hard to learn going againt a 250 sanic capper that goes for a back to front but the main problem is that missing is only due to the failure of the SEN, the PTH can do nothing about it (beside strafe, which most do anyways).

tl;dr
I admire the skill of good snipers but a hitscan long range weapon shouldn't be in a non cover fast paste shooter.
Give them long range projectile weapons and energy draining pistols. Make them Sentinels not Snipers.

They will most likely get a projectile sniper of some sort. However Hi-rez have claimed that there is trouble with creating really fast projectiles in this engine.

Well they are other ways to create a light defense class; adding long range projectile only helps if they remove bxt and phase.

_________________
Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:32 am

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience?

Naota wrote:

If it stays, it's in dire need of a far more limited maximum range/falloff (no base-to-base sniping from the spawn platforms on Crossfire).

IMO more of a particular defect in the Crossfire map than in the gameplay rules.

_________________
Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:42 am

Katuiros

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:47 pm
Posts: 81

Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience?

A good sentinel is the only real answer to enemy cappers.

_________________

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:54 am

DrEuthanasia

Beta Tester

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 1101

Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience?

Fingon wrote:

In the last week I've had maybe 2 matches with cappers going below 300 km/h. That maybe because i play against friends quite often who can cap properly. of course it's not that hard to kill cappers going 150-200. Then again I can chase them down with a juggernaut at leisure at those speeds.

The sentinel is the only defence against 300+ cappers once they have the flag. Now the load time of a full 500 shot is 5 seconds therefore my calculation of 15 seconds is slightly skewed because you might have a shot loaded beforehand. However considering a busy 16v16 with proper players this often isn't the case due to either a large amount of capper and/or disruption.

It's wrong to balance things around the mediocre players because this will make good players unstoppable. Now I agree that sentinels are not fun to fight against. however untill they find a way to stop proper cappers with anything other then a sentinel...

(once he has the flag of course. I main Soldier flag defence, so I won't be letting the pesky buggers go off in a hurry!)

You won't find me arguing that 300+ cappers are something that anyone besides Sentinels can deal with once they leave the stand, but that doesn't stop me from hating both of them for a variety of reasons. I understand that no resolution to the problem exists which doesn't involve nerfing both unstoppable caps and unstoppable hitscan attacks, but again, this is a Sentinel thread. I'm obligated to only propose solutions to the problem which are also relevant to the discussion at hand, even if they paint an incomplete picture.

It is wrong to balance things around mediocre players, but here exists a problem which cannot be mitigated by skill. No matter how good you are, a Sentinel will hit you if you are within his line of sight and his aim is sufficient. There are no effective methods to avoid line of sight (especially at high speeds, but low speeds are hardly better off), and no methods at all to interfere with another player's aim, so the problem is only worsened by increasing the general skill level. Pubs suffer the least, and the problem is universal, although its solution will create its own repercussions that must be solved in turn - we seem to agree on this, if nothing else.

The first question we have to answer is "How can we nerf Sentinels effectively, in a way which makes the class at least as desirable to play as it is now?". From there we can move on to "How do we limit or weaken the now-uncontested flag capping methods that will result from these nerfs?"

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:02 am

Naota

Beta Tester

Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:21 pm
Posts: 160

Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience?

MrLordcaptain wrote:

Well they are other ways to create a light defense class; adding long range projectile only helps if they remove bxt and phase.

Absolutely true - they would need to rework both of the existing rifles or nothing would change. As long as it gives non-capper classes some sort of reasonable counterplay beyond just never going outside/through the open I'd be happy.

Katuiros wrote:

A good sentinel is the only real answer to enemy cappers.

It is, and this just as much of a problem. Both cappers and Sentinels need serious attention because they have far too much influence on the outcome of the game without any opportunity for skilled counterplay.

hvcterr wrote:

Naota wrote:

If it stays, it's in dire need of a far more limited maximum range/falloff (no base-to-base sniping from the spawn platforms on Crossfire).

IMO more of a particular defect in the Crossfire map than in the gameplay rules.

It is, and Crossfire is a humdinger of an awkward map in several other ways, but the issue of snipers covering the entire map from one practically unassailable spot exists in many other maps as well.

You have it in both spawn towers on Drydock, just about any outer dune or base structure on Sunstar, dozens of hills and towers on Raindance, the upper levels of the Temple Ruins base, and any of the big outer set pieces on Tartarus. Crossfire is simply the most egregious example.

If you were to make these less convenient, Sentinels would still find tall hills and geometry with a commanding view and oppress the entire level - it would simply take them 5-10 seconds longer to get there. That's helpful for anyone playing 100% dedicated sniper hunter to set them back further, but it doesn't really solve the problem of their unavoidable level-wide influence.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:18 am

ponyhof

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:35 pm
Posts: 318

Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience?

DrEuthanasia wrote:

It's not fun to watch them come back a mere 5 seconds after you do manage to kill them, only to get shot and repeat the process all over again.

welcome to a shooter game, where one respawns after getting killed. Btw. this doesnt apply only to sentinels.

DrEuthanasia wrote:

People leave servers to escape a good Sentinel - that tells me all that I need to know

Me too leaves servers if the enemy team is too good because it isnt fun. I'm sure its a massive reason to nerf something...

HazzleHOF wrote:

Actually, I think it would be better if we simply implemented global naked spawns. Why? 'Cause it'd
nerf Sents

not only sents, it nerfs everyone. Have fun retaking your base against 5 self-healing heavies and gen down.

FreaK367 wrote:

They ruin duels that they aren't even involved in

as soon they shoot, they ARE involved

DrEuthanasia wrote:

Players sail through the air in slow (from your perspective, of course) parabolic arcs, and since you yourself are all but immune to retaliation and your weapon fires so quickly, there's no real need to sweat the small mistakes.

well, then dont fly high arcs if a good sniper is present. This only shows why we need effective sentinels in the game, to prevent 300km/h cappers arcing in the air freely with impunity. This should not happen. In the end sentinels slow down cappers and they kill cappers. Its a welcome thing.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:23 am

SoundGuy

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:55 am
Posts: 1097

Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience?

Katuiros wrote:

A good sentinel is the only real answer to enemy cappers.

THIS being true, also tells you all you need to know why the Sent needs fixing.
It's sooo powerful that it is the ONLY thing to stop/slow down the "Best/fastest" cappers.
So what does it do to the rest of the players and playing experience?

It tells you that there is other things to fix in the game. Cap/Chase (among other things)
Which isn't new to Comp Scene or Pubbers!

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:17 am

IronKane

Beta Tester

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 497

Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience?

I'll say it again: Give the Sentinel a non-lethal, route interrupting, energy sapping weapon. Call it an EMP bullet or ElectroShock bullet or whatever. Turn it into a purely defensive role that requires working with others to stop the cappers from getting away. He can keep his Falcon for short-mid range fighting/self defense.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:26 pm

DrEuthanasia

Beta Tester

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 1101

Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience?

ponyhof wrote:

welcome to a shooter game, where one respawns after getting killed. Btw. this doesnt apply only to sentinels.

Yes, but everyone else is limited by range. Killing them forces them to wait 5 seconds, and then however long it takes for them to reach the area you were fighting in. If it was just the two of you, your health has ample time to regenerate between the first and second confrontation with a dedicated defender. If you kill someone following a capper, they've lost their only chance because the distance and momentum they'll lose as a result cannot be regained fast enough.

ponyhof wrote:

Me too leaves servers if the enemy team is too good because it isnt fun. I'm sure its a massive reason to nerf something...

I don't leave servers if the enemy team has a good Soldier who kicks my ass in duels every time I fight him, I just avoid that Soldier. I don't feel the need to quit the game because he doesn't have a personal vendetta against me and it's a simple matter to stay out of his way and leave fighting him to the rest of my team. No such luck with a Sentinel - they see you everywhere and they won't miss.

ponyhof wrote:

HazzleHOF wrote:

Actually, I think it would be better if we simply implemented global naked spawns. Why? 'Cause it'd
nerf Sents

not only sents, it nerfs everyone. Have fun retaking your base against 5 self-healing heavies and gen down.

I've never once seen this become a problem in a naked spawn server. Call-in inventory stations still work, after all, so even if the enemy is dedicated enough to put five heavies in your basement, they can be safely ignored most of the time. Unfortunately, this also means that Sentinels are hardly affected by the generator being down, so there is that.

ponyhof wrote:

FreaK367 wrote:

They ruin duels that they aren't even involved in

as soon they shoot, they ARE involved

Yeah, I'm sure that if I were to go out and shoot one of two fencers practicing against each other, my "involvement" would be much appreciated by both of them. What you say is true in a literal sense, but the expectation in any fight is that you'll be able to fight back against everyone participating in it. This might not be a reasonable expectation in a realistic setting, but the purpose of this game is for people to have fun playing it.

ponyhof wrote:

Or we could just prevent 300 km/h cappers by nerfing them and Sentinels so that the other 7 classes in this game can once again have something to contribute. Not to mention that Sentinels slow down and kill a whole lot more than just cappers - they do that to absolutely everyone, and it's only justified against cappers because they are the only possible solution.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:55 pm

Melanious

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:22 pm
Posts: 1991
Location: NA West

Re: Do sentinels really add to the experience?

Quote:

Right? I'm not sure why everyone is ignoring this.. its a win win all around except for the sent's kill score at the end (oh darn). If they are worried about points at the end throw some awards at them for hitting fc with a charge shot or whatever..

This is really the simplest solution that keeps the team play aspect of the sniper in while limiting fast caps still.. and your team chaser will get some more fun rather then watching the capper touch ground once at 300+ for your one nitron chance. This is also fun (though more difficult) for the capper as if he is slowed he might have to put up a fight for the flag or toss it to a mid soldier to go the rest of the way.

Also really.. just put a 200 sanic cap on flag holding and capping/chasing fixed, really.. if they implemented this without damage nerfing sniper even it'd be more fun for everyone (pub and comp) and comp could just ban sentinel altogether as they do with other OP things in game that doesn't mesh.

_________________

Unstoppable Mid Air Disks - NA West

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:17 pm

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Do sentinels really add to the experience?