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Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.
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Fenwayb Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:32 pm Posts: 24	Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed. IronKane wrote: Fenwayb wrote: Gehnster wrote: I don't think its really fixable. At any given time there are only 2 or 3 servers running for each gametype and region I think. That is hardly enough people to start bringing in tiers. I didn't realize it was that few; That would explain why I can recognize the majority of the stronger players in my chosen game type + region. IronKane wrote: It's such an inflamatory word. It implies a conspiracy. The biggest problem is with "Team Switching" where losers jump to the winning side. And you can't punish those who are using more team work than the other side by forcing random sides. Unless you're a fan of Socialism. Eh, I really don't care whether or not it's on purpose, the fact of the matter is it's going a very long way in nearly ruining this game for me. IronKane wrote: But there should be noob servers available, but not required. Best way to learn Tribes fast is to jump in the deep end and keep at it no matter how badly you're getting your ass handed to you. I don't think it's the noobs who are really ruining it though, it's the one who are so significantly better. If most games were just the noobs + the middle level players, it'd be significantly more balanced. IronKane wrote: And yes, I despise 5-0 5 Minute Maps. But most of the time it's because the losing side has no defense or everyone is attacking or defending the gens. I don't play a lot of capture the flag, but it sounds pretty similar to nobody bothering to get the flag in tdm. IronKane wrote: Btw, there was no need to start a new Teamstacking thread. There's at least 2 or 3 that aren't that old where you can add your $0.02 Sorry, I didn't look too hard for another thread on it. I didn't say it was the noobs fault. I said that there should be noob servers for those who want to learn the game in a less high pressure enviroment. Teamstacking in TDM? As I said, Team Switching is a big contributor. And in TDM, you are going to have some talented players owning everyone around them. But if you see that these guys are working in groups....well, not much to do about that other than play with friends and use some kind of VOIP like Team Speak or Ventrillo. I think you're the first to say anything about Teamstacking in TDM. TDM is where you go to work on your duelling skills. It's not a very strategic game type. Boils down to get possession of the flag and kill everyone you can. Fun, but barely qualifies for the moniker of "Team" DeathMatch. Tdm is what I enjoy, and I don't see any reason it shouldn't be balanced just as the other modes should be. this isn't about teamwork; if people are on vent together, I know it's pretty much impossible to beat them unless I'm doing the same, which is not what I play tribes for. I think you missed my point regarding the noobs. Separating them isn't going to make a massive difference, where as separating the significantly better players will. They are the ones throwing it way off, not the noobs.
Thu May 17, 2012 6:07 pm

111uminate Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:10 am Posts: 387 Steam Gamer Name: WhiteCrow	Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed. I know where the OP's coming from, but hang in there man. Hopefully there's a fix in the works, but in the mean time just keep playing and get better. You will. That won't combat the stacking, but at least your influence on how the match turns out will become more potent. No matter what class you main, being familiar with PTH is always a good thing to have. If you're on a team with none, or one or two chances are your team is going to be severely gimped. Being able to fill that role effectively will drastically improve your odds of winning a game for your team. _________________ IGN: WhiteCrow (Yeah, I'm that guy.) HiRezTodd wrote: Data-porn!
Thu May 17, 2012 6:19 pm

IronKane Beta Tester Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 497	Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed. But where are these superior players supposed to go? Myself, I'd rather play against those who challenge my skill level or are even better than me (in skill, not choice of weapons). I guess that's why I constantly get those guys who keep coming back for revenge no matter how many times I kill them. How do you accurately identify them? You can't go by rank, I've got several years experience playing Tribes and I started off as above average at rank 1. My skills progession in T:A has been a fairly slow growth curve as there is nothing that different in the combat mechanics other than the proliferateion of Autos. What about their right to play with friend who may not be as good as him? I play with several people while on team speak and we're all friended so we have those nice green carets over our heads when we play. I'm sympathetic to the problem, but I doubt there's a solution to it that doesn't ruin the fun of others who aren't trying to stack teams, but are just good duellists. If it's any consolation, the problem is way worse in CTF.
Thu May 17, 2012 6:27 pm

Fenwayb Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:32 pm Posts: 24	Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed. 111uminate wrote: I know where the OP's coming from, but hang in there man. Hopefully there's a fix in the works, but in the mean time just keep playing and get better. You will. That won't combat the stacking, but at least your influence on how the match turns out will become more potent. No matter what class you main, being familiar with PTH is always a good thing to have. If you're on a team with none, or one or two chances are your team is going to be severely gimped. Being able to fill that role effectively will drastically improve your odds of winning a game for your team. As I said, I'm not bad, I'm just not amazing. I can pretty easily top my team, but I can also pretty easily have games where I can barely manage more than a kill or two. I started with the pathfinder, and that was what really made me love this game, but I was pretty terrible at it. I switched over to the Juggernaut, and I absolutely adore it. IronKane wrote: But where are these superior players supposed to go? Myself, I'd rather play against those who challenge my skill level or are even better than me (in skill, not choice of weapons). I guess that's why I constantly get those guys who keep coming back for revenge no matter how many times I kill them. How do you accurately identify them? You can't go by rank, I've got several years experience playing Tribes and I started off as above average at rank 1. My skills progession in T:A has been a fairly slow growth curve as there is nothing that different in the combat mechanics other than the proliferateion of Autos. What about their right to play with friend who may not be as good as him? I play with several people while on team speak and we're all friended so we have those nice green carets over our heads when we play. I'm sympathetic to the problem, but I doubt there's a solution to it that doesn't ruin the fun of others who aren't trying to stack teams, but are just good duellists. If it's any consolation, the problem is way worse in CTF. They should go play against people of their own skill level, or friends who are willing to play against them on a private server. I recognize the problem with identifying them, and I realize that rank isn't a smart way to do it. Average score per a game is the only way I can think of, but even that has its issues. The tiering system would only be for pug servers; if you wanna play with friends, private servers are where that should happen. I appreciate the sympathy, but I don't think putting people with others of their skill level would "ruin their fun", and if it does, then that's their problem. Massacring people of significantly lower skill than you shouldn't be an option whether people enjoy it or not. I know it's worse for CTF, that's one of the main reasons I've never been able to get into it. I also recognize that this solution might have added problems with CTF, but for TDM and likely arena as well I see it as being the easiest fix for the problem. CTF and CAH (the "strategic" game mode I like) might both need their own separate, more complex solution. Last edited by Fenwayb on Thu May 17, 2012 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu May 17, 2012 6:45 pm

Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed. i've played solo rounds and switched to the losing team each time and been accused of team stacking. it's not MY fault i am the only gold payer in the server! the fact is that some people are WAY to oversensitive about this. not saying it doesn't happen, but OMG teamstack is getting just about as popular as OMG HAX. instead of waiting for hi rez to fix it, look at what the other team is doing to win. they likely have a person playing hof. they likely only have 1 or 2 cappers. the rest of the team is likely defending their base, or attacking the enemy base. very few will be DMing in the midfield. now notice what the other team is doing, and your team isn't fill those roles... you don't think it works? guess what the other team is doing right now...filling roles that need to be filled _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Thu May 17, 2012 7:58 pm

Melchi32 Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 11:46 pm Posts: 133	Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed. Joining method (often) ruins team balance Conclusions were : - remove tab/score screen at joining menu - make friend query mutual (to prevent adding every top3 to one's friend list) - only options would be : join BE, join DS, join random, join friend, spectate - if spectate, cannot join a team in this game anymore (still can spectate after choosing a team but no more team join after that, or only same team) - can't change team if already choosed one (auto-balance will still do it for you) _________________ Base XP = time played BonusXP = [25%Base XP/rank] + [badges] + [25%Base XP if win] Thus XP is only based on : 1.time played in the match 2.team choosed 3.position achieved in the team Kills/accolades/credits/score mean nothing. Found on the wikia and checked on many scorescreens.
Thu May 17, 2012 8:24 pm

Fenwayb Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:32 pm Posts: 24	Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed. Melchi32 wrote: Joining method (often) ruins team balance Conclusions were : - remove tab/score screen at joining menu - make friend query mutual (to prevent adding every top3 to one's friend list) - only options would be : join BE, join DS, join random, join friend, spectate - if spectate, cannot join a team in this game anymore (still can spectate after choosing a team but no more team join after that, or only same team) - can't change team if already choosed one (auto-balance will still do it for you) I don't think making it random is going to fix it, mainly because I think it's only a small portion of people doing it on purpose. Most of it is just bad luck, and the only way to fix that is with a proper tiering system. Wobberjockey wrote: i've played solo rounds and switched to the losing team each time and been accused of team stacking. it's not MY fault i am the only gold payer in the server! the fact is that some people are WAY to oversensitive about this. not saying it doesn't happen, but OMG teamstack is getting just about as popular as OMG HAX. instead of waiting for hi rez to fix it, look at what the other team is doing to win. they likely have a person playing hof. they likely only have 1 or 2 cappers. the rest of the team is likely defending their base, or attacking the enemy base. very few will be DMing in the midfield. now notice what the other team is doing, and your team isn't fill those roles... you don't think it works? guess what the other team is doing right now...filling roles that need to be filled I know you likely didn't read much of this thread other than the title and maybe the OP, so I can kind of understand your only partially related post. This thread is more about teamstacking in tdm. For those who don't know, there are basically 2 roles in tdm; someone who isn't completely retarded at running/chasing a flag, and then everybody else. And still 90% of the time those 2 roles can't seem to be filled due to the terrible matching system.
Thu May 17, 2012 10:30 pm

Melchi32 Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 11:46 pm Posts: 133	Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed. Fenwayb wrote: I don't think making it random is going to fix it, mainly because I think it's only a small portion of people doing it on purpose. Most of it is just bad luck, and the only way to fix that is with a proper tiering system. "A small portion", to me 10% is a small portion. It should make around 3 or 4 per game. Oh crap, that's already a fair amount of people to ruin team balance. Tiering system is also a good solution, applying both this and random join could be best. _________________ Base XP = time played BonusXP = [25%Base XP/rank] + [badges] + [25%Base XP if win] Thus XP is only based on : 1.time played in the match 2.team choosed 3.position achieved in the team Kills/accolades/credits/score mean nothing. Found on the wikia and checked on many scorescreens.
Thu May 17, 2012 10:42 pm

Fenwayb Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:32 pm Posts: 24	Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed. Melchi32 wrote: Fenwayb wrote: I don't think making it random is going to fix it, mainly because I think it's only a small portion of people doing it on purpose. Most of it is just bad luck, and the only way to fix that is with a proper tiering system. "A small portion", to me 10% is a small portion. It should make around 3 or 4 per game. Oh crap, that's already a fair amount of people to ruin team balance. Tiering system is also a good solution, applying both this and random join could be best. 10% of a full game would be 1.6 people if I'm not mistaken...
Thu May 17, 2012 10:43 pm

Melchi32 Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 11:46 pm Posts: 133	Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed. Fenwayb wrote: 10% of a full game would be 1.6 people if I'm not mistaken... 16 on each team, 16+16=32, 32*10%=3.2 _________________ Base XP = time played BonusXP = [25%Base XP/rank] + [badges] + [25%Base XP if win] Thus XP is only based on : 1.time played in the match 2.team choosed 3.position achieved in the team Kills/accolades/credits/score mean nothing. Found on the wikia and checked on many scorescreens.
Thu May 17, 2012 10:45 pm

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Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

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Fenwayb

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:32 pm
Posts: 24

Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

IronKane wrote:

Fenwayb wrote:

Gehnster wrote:

I don't think its really fixable. At any given time there are only 2 or 3 servers running for each gametype and region I think. That is hardly enough people to start bringing in tiers.

I didn't realize it was that few; That would explain why I can recognize the majority of the stronger players in my chosen game type + region.

IronKane wrote:

It's such an inflamatory word. It implies a conspiracy. The biggest problem is with "Team Switching" where losers jump to the winning side. And you can't punish those who are using more team work than the other side by forcing random sides. Unless you're a fan of Socialism.

Eh, I really don't care whether or not it's on purpose, the fact of the matter is it's going a very long way in nearly ruining this game for me.

IronKane wrote:

But there should be noob servers available, but not required. Best way to learn Tribes fast is to jump in the deep end and keep at it no matter how badly you're getting your ass handed to you.

I don't think it's the noobs who are really ruining it though, it's the one who are so significantly better. If most games were just the noobs + the middle level players, it'd be significantly more balanced.

IronKane wrote:

And yes, I despise 5-0 5 Minute Maps. But most of the time it's because the losing side has no defense or everyone is attacking or defending the gens.

I don't play a lot of capture the flag, but it sounds pretty similar to nobody bothering to get the flag in tdm.

IronKane wrote:

Btw, there was no need to start a new Teamstacking thread. There's at least 2 or 3 that aren't that old where you can add your $0.02

Sorry, I didn't look too hard for another thread on it.

I didn't say it was the noobs fault. I said that there should be noob servers for those who want to learn the game in a less high pressure enviroment.

Teamstacking in TDM? As I said, Team Switching is a big contributor. And in TDM, you are going to have some talented players owning everyone around them. But if you see that these guys are working in groups....well, not much to do about that other than play with friends and use some kind of VOIP like Team Speak or Ventrillo.

I think you're the first to say anything about Teamstacking in TDM. TDM is where you go to work on your duelling skills. It's not a very strategic game type. Boils down to get possession of the flag and kill everyone you can. Fun, but barely qualifies for the moniker of "Team" DeathMatch.

Tdm is what I enjoy, and I don't see any reason it shouldn't be balanced just as the other modes should be.

this isn't about teamwork; if people are on vent together, I know it's pretty much impossible to beat them unless I'm doing the same, which is not what I play tribes for.

I think you missed my point regarding the noobs. Separating them isn't going to make a massive difference, where as separating the significantly better players will. They are the ones throwing it way off, not the noobs.

Thu May 17, 2012 6:07 pm

111uminate

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:10 am
Posts: 387
Steam Gamer Name: WhiteCrow

Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

I know where the OP's coming from, but hang in there man. Hopefully there's a fix in the works, but in the mean time just keep playing and get better. You will. That won't combat the stacking, but at least your influence on how the match turns out will become more potent.

No matter what class you main, being familiar with PTH is always a good thing to have. If you're on a team with none, or one or two chances are your team is going to be severely gimped. Being able to fill that role effectively will drastically improve your odds of winning a game for your team.

_________________

IGN: WhiteCrow (Yeah, I'm that guy.)

HiRezTodd wrote:

Data-porn!

Thu May 17, 2012 6:19 pm

IronKane

Beta Tester

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 497

Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

But where are these superior players supposed to go? Myself, I'd rather play against those who challenge my skill level or are even better than me (in skill, not choice of weapons). I guess that's why I constantly get those guys who keep coming back for revenge no matter how many times I kill them.

How do you accurately identify them? You can't go by rank, I've got several years experience playing Tribes and I started off as above average at rank 1. My skills progession in T:A has been a fairly slow growth curve as there is nothing that different in the combat mechanics other than the proliferateion of Autos.

What about their right to play with friend who may not be as good as him? I play with several people while on team speak and we're all friended so we have those nice green carets over our heads when we play.

I'm sympathetic to the problem, but I doubt there's a solution to it that doesn't ruin the fun of others who aren't trying to stack teams, but are just good duellists.

If it's any consolation, the problem is way worse in CTF.

Thu May 17, 2012 6:27 pm

Fenwayb

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:32 pm
Posts: 24

Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

111uminate wrote:

As I said, I'm not bad, I'm just not amazing. I can pretty easily top my team, but I can also pretty easily have games where I can barely manage more than a kill or two.

I started with the pathfinder, and that was what really made me love this game, but I was pretty terrible at it. I switched over to the Juggernaut, and I absolutely adore it.

IronKane wrote:

They should go play against people of their own skill level, or friends who are willing to play against them on a private server.

I recognize the problem with identifying them, and I realize that rank isn't a smart way to do it. Average score per a game is the only way I can think of, but even that has its issues.

The tiering system would only be for pug servers; if you wanna play with friends, private servers are where that should happen.

I appreciate the sympathy, but I don't think putting people with others of their skill level would "ruin their fun", and if it does, then that's their problem. Massacring people of significantly lower skill than you shouldn't be an option whether people enjoy it or not.

I know it's worse for CTF, that's one of the main reasons I've never been able to get into it. I also recognize that this solution might have added problems with CTF, but for TDM and likely arena as well I see it as being the easiest fix for the problem. CTF and CAH (the "strategic" game mode I like) might both need their own separate, more complex solution.

Last edited by Fenwayb on Thu May 17, 2012 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu May 17, 2012 6:45 pm

Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

i've played solo rounds and switched to the losing team each time and been accused of team stacking.

it's not MY fault i am the only gold payer in the server!

the fact is that some people are WAY to oversensitive about this.

not saying it doesn't happen, but OMG teamstack is getting just about as popular as OMG HAX.

instead of waiting for hi rez to fix it, look at what the other team is doing to win.

they likely have a person playing hof.
they likely only have 1 or 2 cappers.
the rest of the team is likely defending their base, or attacking the enemy base. very few will be DMing in the midfield.

now notice what the other team is doing, and your team isn't fill those roles... you don't think it works?

guess what the other team is doing right now...filling roles that need to be filled

_________________

original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Thu May 17, 2012 7:58 pm

Melchi32

Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 11:46 pm
Posts: 133

Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

Joining method (often) ruins team balance

Conclusions were :
- remove tab/score screen at joining menu
- make friend query mutual (to prevent adding every top3 to one's friend list)
- only options would be : join BE, join DS, join random, join friend, spectate
- if spectate, cannot join a team in this game anymore (still can spectate after choosing a team but no more team join after that, or only same team)
- can't change team if already choosed one (auto-balance will still do it for you)

_________________
Base XP = time played
BonusXP = [25%Base XP/rank] + [badges] + [25%Base XP if win]
Thus XP is only based on :
1.time played in the match
2.team choosed
3.position achieved in the team
Kills/accolades/credits/score mean nothing.
Found on the wikia and checked on many scorescreens.

Thu May 17, 2012 8:24 pm

Fenwayb

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:32 pm
Posts: 24

Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

Melchi32 wrote:

I don't think making it random is going to fix it, mainly because I think it's only a small portion of people doing it on purpose. Most of it is just bad luck, and the only way to fix that is with a proper tiering system.

Wobberjockey wrote:

I know you likely didn't read much of this thread other than the title and maybe the OP, so I can kind of understand your only partially related post. This thread is more about teamstacking in tdm. For those who don't know, there are basically 2 roles in tdm; someone who isn't completely retarded at running/chasing a flag, and then everybody else. And still 90% of the time those 2 roles can't seem to be filled due to the terrible matching system.

Thu May 17, 2012 10:30 pm

Melchi32

Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 11:46 pm
Posts: 133

Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

Fenwayb wrote:

"A small portion", to me 10% is a small portion. It should make around 3 or 4 per game. Oh crap, that's already a fair amount of people to ruin team balance. :roll:

Tiering system is also a good solution, applying both this and random join could be best.

Thu May 17, 2012 10:42 pm

Fenwayb

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:32 pm
Posts: 24

Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

Melchi32 wrote:

Fenwayb wrote:

"A small portion", to me 10% is a small portion. It should make around 3 or 4 per game. Oh crap, that's already a fair amount of people to ruin team balance. :roll:

Tiering system is also a good solution, applying both this and random join could be best.

10% of a full game would be 1.6 people if I'm not mistaken...

Thu May 17, 2012 10:43 pm

Melchi32

Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 11:46 pm
Posts: 133

Re: Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.

Fenwayb wrote:

10% of a full game would be 1.6 people if I'm not mistaken...

16 on each team, 16+16=32, 32*10%=3.2

Thu May 17, 2012 10:45 pm

Forum rules

Teamstacking really, really needs to be fixed.