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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay
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UltraSexInferno Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:57 pm Posts: 996	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay UniversalPie wrote: miqueloz wrote: The counter-argument is this: automatics are fine. Okay, I can agree with them being fine, if: every class gets a 75% health boost, and all AOE weapons get a 50% damage increase, then yeah, autos are fine as is. That would actually work
Wed May 16, 2012 7:30 pm

Beeman1991 Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:51 am Posts: 6291 Location: British Columbia Steam Gamer Name: beeman1991	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Fingon wrote: their DPS is superior to spinfusors Rapid-fire weapons should, due to lower damage-per-shot, have higher DPS Otherwise there's literally no reason to use them _________________ HELP HIREZDUKE TAKE HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE AS SUPREME DICTATOR GA2
Wed May 16, 2012 7:44 pm

FreaK367 Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm Posts: 587 Location: England Steam Gamer Name: FreaK	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Just a hefty RoF nerf would balance them out, it would make them more skillful, with less of a line of bullets to walk into players, each shot would be more important and less forgiving, they would keep the same per-bullet damage and mechanics, and would as a result have a lower DPS. I've posted my idea in great detail elsewhere in the forums, but the key ideas are All RoF's of: 0.095 become 0.135 0.105 become 0.145 Along with these individual changes: NJ5-B damage down to 110 Chain Gun RoF to 0.135 LAR RoF to 0.42 X1 LMG RoF still at 0.105 & damage to 60 ^ That, keeps all of the DPS in the order they are in now, just between 500 - 600 instead of 700 - 850. The Chain Gun stilll overshadows them though as it should, I still think 955 DPS is too much for it though, if the other automatics got nerfed without the Chain Gun, I can bet you'd see a HELL of a lot more of them and eventually people would be screaming for nerfs. So this example gives the Chain Gun 740 DPS, still 317 more DPS than the Mortar Launcher and 119 more DPS than the MIRV Launcher. One of my reasons for this is using the Chain Gun currently you can kill a Light Class in less than 1 second, a Medium Class in 1.4 seconds, and a fellow Heavy Class in 2.7 seconds. Does that not seem wrong to you? Do the math to work out the DPS if you want, 1 / RoF x Damage = DPS. I'd be much happier with my numbers though, still higher than explosive weapons because people seem to think that's how it should be... but to a more respectable level. And they would be more skillful, and still useful for chasing if that's how you chase, instead of you know, going Pathfinder and using some effort. _________________ Desired: Bind VGS commands to keys. Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap) Large Automatic Nerfs Decent Plasma Gun Nerf Large Jackal Nerf
Wed May 16, 2012 8:18 pm

KoukenNZ Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:31 pm Posts: 50	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay i have 60% off the XI LMG for JUG today, almost bought it then i remembered im not terrible
Wed May 16, 2012 8:25 pm

JongyFong Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:23 am Posts: 7	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay I hesitated to jump on the bandwagon but as more weapons are being unlocked and more players learn to 'bullet stream' their way to victory I have to agree automatics are a cancer. Lately the X1 LMG has been a particular pain in the ass, as in even approaching a decent Juggy is futile. I had a chaingun in all of my load-outs in T1/T2, but they really served a niche as a chase/finish/chip-away weapon. Now every class has autos and they dominate outdoor areas as soon as players become aware of their efficiency/effectiveness.
Wed May 16, 2012 8:42 pm

pzea469 Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:40 am Posts: 1206	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay I think autos are this strong because of chasing in CTF. When you have to imbalance a game to make a game mode work, you know the game mode is flawed. IMO, classes and weapons should be balanced based on dueling, not CTF. There shouldn't be a dueling class. One class can be better at dueling from a distance while another better from close up and so forth. Heavier classes take more damage, lighter ones take less but are more mobile. These autos though really take the soul out of dueling. They have a place but it shouldn't be so dominant. Autos should be weaker and have less dps than explosive weapons. The reason for using autos is that you can hit people in the air a lot easier than with explosive weapons. The advantage to using an auto should be that it can hit people in the air just as easily as things on the ground. THAT'S THE ADVANTAGE. They don't need to have higher dps than explosives. CTF then needs to work around balanced classes and weapons. If chasing is so hard with balanced autos, then that's a flaw and the game mode should be tweaked, not the classes or weapons. You can put the flags indoors as has been suggested, which would do one of many things: first it would make capping at 400 or even 200 impossible because you have to be inside to get the flag. It would require a true assault and teamwork. Lights, mediums, and even heavies would be valid cappers. And returning your flag would be a good thing since it's so secure inside. Spectating would also be much better since a flag wouldn't get capped in 5 seconds with the casters missing everything. More passing to teammates to get a flag capped.
Thu May 17, 2012 12:52 am

Arrob Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:09 am Posts: 128	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay pzea469 wrote: first it would make capping at 400 or even 200 impossible because you have to be inside to get the flag. It would require a true assault and teamwork. Lights, mediums, and even heavies would be valid cappers. And returning your flag would be a good thing since it's so secure inside. Spectating would also be much better since a flag wouldn't get capped in 5 seconds with the casters missing everything. More passing to teammates to get a flag capped. Never do this. Those guys want to destroy this games core (speed), just because they cant handle/reach high speeds theirself. CTF needs a mode with no defense. grabbing the flag would be easy, capping not because the other teams grabs aswell. so the point would be about chasing and skiing (the capper needs to avoid enemys while maintaining speed, which requires more skill than routes). Also Chasers have enough time since noone can cap, and the team with better chasers (and cappers) win. There would be no other class then pth and no rifle needed, even not for chasing. would be so much fun.
Thu May 17, 2012 4:09 am

SpecialOpZ Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:46 pm Posts: 13	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay The auto weapons need to have some sort of kick to them. I know it's a game but if you tried to fly and fire on automatic in real life you will end up in a mess. I don't like how the weapons just fire forever at what you are aiming. There should be kick so the user has to manage the weapon.
Thu May 17, 2012 6:01 am

kine Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:16 pm Posts: 16	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Arrob wrote: pzea469 wrote: first it would make capping at 400 or even 200 impossible because you have to be inside to get the flag. It would require a true assault and teamwork. Lights, mediums, and even heavies would be valid cappers. And returning your flag would be a good thing since it's so secure inside. Spectating would also be much better since a flag wouldn't get capped in 5 seconds with the casters missing everything. More passing to teammates to get a flag capped. Never do this. Those guys want to destroy this games core (speed), just because they cant handle/reach high speeds theirself. CTF needs a mode with no defense. grabbing the flag would be easy, capping not because the other teams grabs aswell. so the point would be about chasing and skiing (the capper needs to avoid enemys while maintaining speed, which requires more skill than routes). Also Chasers have enough time since noone can cap, and the team with better chasers (and cappers) win. There would be no other class then pth and no rifle needed, even not for chasing. would be so much fun. heh why not just say "i want team rabbit w/o autos!". cuz thats exactly what i want! imo hi-rez need to stop takin their queues from CoD and keep with what made Tribes 1, (screw t2, t:v) so amazing... what hi-rez, and most other gaming developers for that matter, need to realize is that makin a game "easy" or "newb friendly" deters the hardcore players, who are much more likely to spend money if the game is kept very difficult. cuz lets face it, 90% of the auto spamming kids out there dont have their own income or even a debit card of their own to purchase anything. thes are the kids who drive away the hardcore players. who mostly DO have their own incomes and credit/debit cards.... what made the original tribes so amazing was there were no mediocre players, you either completely sucked and just started, or were very good. the learning curve got rid of the children. this needs to happen with T:A. so hi-rez, would you rather cater to children w/o jobs or any type of plastic, or to the hardcore old school players? sure there maybe less of us, but way more who have our own money and would be more willing to spend it on a game tailored to us.
Thu May 17, 2012 6:03 am

Arrob Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:09 am Posts: 128	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay kine wrote: heh why not just say "i want team rabbit w/o autos!". cuz thats exactly what i want! [...] Team rabbit? Wouldnt that be exactly TDM with some minor changes (credits)? One Team holding the flag while other chasing them. I would miss the possibility to either chase or defend at any time, and some tactics (e.g. 1 preparing for e-grab while others chase/defend, timed return etc.). Of course everyone pth with spinfusor only. The rest of your text seems unrealistic. you say hirez should decide for the hardcore gamers and get away those unskilled masses. that will never happen, especially if you realize that 20 kids which spend 10 dollar each (which they have and are willing to spend) are worth more than 1 real gamer which spends 30 dollar. As i said, you could satisfie both groups. just add one or more new game modes, which get rid of those silly classes and unavoidable weapons (all automatics, pistols, rifles).
Thu May 17, 2012 6:29 am

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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

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UltraSexInferno

Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:57 pm
Posts: 996

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

UniversalPie wrote:

miqueloz wrote:

The counter-argument is this: automatics are fine.

Okay, I can agree with them being fine, if: every class gets a 75% health boost, and all AOE weapons get a 50% damage increase, then yeah, autos are fine as is.

That would actually work :lol:

Wed May 16, 2012 7:30 pm

Beeman1991

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:51 am
Posts: 6291
Location: British Columbia
Steam Gamer Name: beeman1991

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Fingon wrote:

their DPS is superior to spinfusors

Rapid-fire weapons should, due to lower damage-per-shot, have higher DPS
Otherwise there's literally no reason to use them

_________________
HELP HIREZDUKE TAKE HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE AS SUPREME DICTATOR GA2

Wed May 16, 2012 7:44 pm

FreaK367

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 587
Location: England
Steam Gamer Name: FreaK

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Just a hefty RoF nerf would balance them out, it would make them more skillful, with less of a line of bullets to walk into players, each shot would be more important and less forgiving, they would keep the same per-bullet damage and mechanics, and would as a result have a lower DPS.

I've posted my idea in great detail elsewhere in the forums, but the key ideas are

All RoF's of:
0.095 become 0.135
0.105 become 0.145

Along with these individual changes:
NJ5-B damage down to 110
Chain Gun RoF to 0.135
LAR RoF to 0.42
X1 LMG RoF still at 0.105 & damage to 60

^ That, keeps all of the DPS in the order they are in now, just between 500 - 600 instead of 700 - 850. The Chain Gun stilll overshadows them though as it should, I still think 955 DPS is too much for it though, if the other automatics got nerfed without the Chain Gun, I can bet you'd see a HELL of a lot more of them and eventually people would be screaming for nerfs. So this example gives the Chain Gun 740 DPS, still 317 more DPS than the Mortar Launcher and 119 more DPS than the MIRV Launcher.
One of my reasons for this is using the Chain Gun currently you can kill a Light Class in less than 1 second, a Medium Class in 1.4 seconds, and a fellow Heavy Class in 2.7 seconds. Does that not seem wrong to you?

Do the math to work out the DPS if you want, 1 / RoF x Damage = DPS. I'd be much happier with my numbers though, still higher than explosive weapons because people seem to think that's how it should be... but to a more respectable level. And they would be more skillful, and still useful for chasing if that's how you chase, instead of you know, going Pathfinder and using some effort.

_________________

Desired:
Bind VGS commands to keys.
Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap)
Large Automatic Nerfs
Decent Plasma Gun Nerf
Large Jackal Nerf

Wed May 16, 2012 8:18 pm

KoukenNZ

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:31 pm
Posts: 50

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

i have 60% off the XI LMG for JUG today, almost bought it

then i remembered im not terrible

Wed May 16, 2012 8:25 pm

JongyFong

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 7

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

I hesitated to jump on the bandwagon but as more weapons are being unlocked and more players learn to 'bullet stream' their way to victory I have to agree automatics are a cancer.

Lately the X1 LMG has been a particular pain in the ass, as in even approaching a decent Juggy is futile.

I had a chaingun in all of my load-outs in T1/T2, but they really served a niche as a chase/finish/chip-away weapon. Now every class has autos and they dominate outdoor areas as soon as players become aware of their efficiency/effectiveness.

Wed May 16, 2012 8:42 pm

pzea469

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:40 am
Posts: 1206

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

I think autos are this strong because of chasing in CTF. When you have to imbalance a game to make a game mode work, you know the game mode is flawed.

IMO, classes and weapons should be balanced based on dueling, not CTF. There shouldn't be a dueling class. One class can be better at dueling from a distance while another better from close up and so forth. Heavier classes take more damage, lighter ones take less but are more mobile. These autos though really take the soul out of dueling. They have a place but it shouldn't be so dominant.

Autos should be weaker and have less dps than explosive weapons. The reason for using autos is that you can hit people in the air a lot easier than with explosive weapons. The advantage to using an auto should be that it can hit people in the air just as easily as things on the ground. THAT'S THE ADVANTAGE. They don't need to have higher dps than explosives.

CTF then needs to work around balanced classes and weapons. If chasing is so hard with balanced autos, then that's a flaw and the game mode should be tweaked, not the classes or weapons. You can put the flags indoors as has been suggested, which would do one of many things:

first it would make capping at 400 or even 200 impossible because you have to be inside to get the flag. It would require a true assault and teamwork. Lights, mediums, and even heavies would be valid cappers. And returning your flag would be a good thing since it's so secure inside. Spectating would also be much better since a flag wouldn't get capped in 5 seconds with the casters missing everything. More passing to teammates to get a flag capped.

Thu May 17, 2012 12:52 am

Arrob

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:09 am
Posts: 128

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

pzea469 wrote:

first it would make capping at 400 or even 200 impossible because you have to be inside to get the flag. It would require a true assault and teamwork. Lights, mediums, and even heavies would be valid cappers. And returning your flag would be a good thing since it's so secure inside. Spectating would also be much better since a flag wouldn't get capped in 5 seconds with the casters missing everything. More passing to teammates to get a flag capped.

Never do this. Those guys want to destroy this games core (speed), just because they cant handle/reach high speeds theirself.

CTF needs a mode with no defense. grabbing the flag would be easy, capping not because the other teams grabs aswell. so the point would be about chasing and skiing (the capper needs to avoid enemys while maintaining speed, which requires more skill than routes). Also Chasers have enough time since noone can cap, and the team with better chasers (and cappers) win. There would be no other class then pth and no rifle needed, even not for chasing. would be so much fun.

Thu May 17, 2012 4:09 am

SpecialOpZ

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:46 pm
Posts: 13

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

The auto weapons need to have some sort of kick to them. I know it's a game but if you tried to fly and fire on automatic in real life you will end up in a mess.

I don't like how the weapons just fire forever at what you are aiming. There should be kick so the user has to manage the weapon.

Thu May 17, 2012 6:01 am

kine

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:16 pm
Posts: 16

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Arrob wrote:

pzea469 wrote:

heh why not just say "i want team rabbit w/o autos!". cuz thats exactly what i want!

imo hi-rez need to stop takin their queues from CoD and keep with what made Tribes 1, (screw t2, t:v) so amazing...

what hi-rez, and most other gaming developers for that matter, need to realize is that makin a game "easy" or "newb friendly" deters the hardcore players, who are much more likely to spend money if the game is kept very difficult. cuz lets face it, 90% of the auto spamming kids out there dont have their own income or even a debit card of their own to purchase anything. thes are the kids who drive away the hardcore players. who mostly DO have their own incomes and credit/debit cards.... what made the original tribes so amazing was there were no mediocre players, you either completely sucked and just started, or were very good. the learning curve got rid of the children. this needs to happen with T:A.

so hi-rez, would you rather cater to children w/o jobs or any type of plastic, or to the hardcore old school players? sure there maybe less of us, but way more who have our own money and would be more willing to spend it on a game tailored to us.

Thu May 17, 2012 6:03 am

Arrob

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:09 am
Posts: 128

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

kine wrote:

heh why not just say "i want team rabbit w/o autos!". cuz thats exactly what i want!
[...]

Team rabbit? Wouldnt that be exactly TDM with some minor changes (credits)? One Team holding the flag while other chasing them.
I would miss the possibility to either chase or defend at any time, and some tactics (e.g. 1 preparing for e-grab while others chase/defend, timed return etc.). Of course everyone pth with spinfusor only.

The rest of your text seems unrealistic. you say hirez should decide for the hardcore gamers and get away those unskilled masses. that will never happen, especially if you realize that 20 kids which spend 10 dollar each (which they have and are willing to spend) are worth more than 1 real gamer which spends 30 dollar.

As i said, you could satisfie both groups. just add one or more new game modes, which get rid of those silly classes and unavoidable weapons (all automatics, pistols, rifles).

Thu May 17, 2012 6:29 am

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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay