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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay
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Chargolith Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:40 pm Posts: 43	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay AwwThatsTooBad wrote: Chargolith wrote: As a non-LMG using Jug, I'm to the point that I will not engage a DMB or an LMG using Jug. I'm a huge easy target to hit, and their dps is just off the charts. Best I can do is stay at range and hope to get a lucky MIRV shot off. Raiders and soldiers are also pretty hard to beat, but it's still doable. Light classes depend on the player. Smart ones just stay in the air and hose me, then make sure they land in a place that's hard to hit with a spinfusor. I've lost duels to these guys without even getting a shot off. Of course, this all depends on if they switch to automatics. If they stick with explosive weapons I'll win more often than not. Don't worry , you're far from the only one. Peolpe don't ever bother me more than once or twice with lmg and mines either. I guess sentinel is no longer alone as a class/setup not worth killing or bothering with. Of course I sport the lmg -- you have to. I'll admit this much, I'd probably use the LMG if I didn't have a 100ms ping. Or maybe I'm just a bad shot, but I can't hit much with an automatic. It does seem though, that the ones that chew me up with an auto, always have a sub 50ms ping.
Sun May 13, 2012 9:43 pm

FreaK367 Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm Posts: 587 Location: England Steam Gamer Name: FreaK	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Nobody needs to use the LMG, just learn to use proper weapons. I am a non LMG Juggernaut on a regular basis, and I do just fine. Just came out of game there there being a Juggernaut, without touching the LMG, because it isn't needed, if you need it, you're insulting your own ability. Click the images for the full size versions. See, no LMG = Ownage. Edit: Also, I turned rank 30 inbetween, yayyyy. _________________ Desired: Bind VGS commands to keys. Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap) Large Automatic Nerfs Decent Plasma Gun Nerf Large Jackal Nerf
Sun May 13, 2012 10:18 pm

miqueloz Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:55 pm Posts: 267	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Omg, proof that spinfusors are overpowered. Buff automatics to automagics NOW
Sun May 13, 2012 10:27 pm

supern00b Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:24 am Posts: 551 Location: New Zealand	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay Chargolith wrote: AwwThatsTooBad wrote: Chargolith wrote: As a non-LMG using Jug, I'm to the point that I will not engage a DMB or an LMG using Jug. I'm a huge easy target to hit, and their dps is just off the charts. Best I can do is stay at range and hope to get a lucky MIRV shot off. Raiders and soldiers are also pretty hard to beat, but it's still doable. Light classes depend on the player. Smart ones just stay in the air and hose me, then make sure they land in a place that's hard to hit with a spinfusor. I've lost duels to these guys without even getting a shot off. Of course, this all depends on if they switch to automatics. If they stick with explosive weapons I'll win more often than not. Don't worry , you're far from the only one. Peolpe don't ever bother me more than once or twice with lmg and mines either. I guess sentinel is no longer alone as a class/setup not worth killing or bothering with. Of course I sport the lmg -- you have to. I'll admit this much, I'd probably use the LMG if I didn't have a 100ms ping. Or maybe I'm just a bad shot, but I can't hit much with an automatic. It does seem though, that the ones that chew me up with an auto, always have a sub 50ms ping. Everyone knows to rape with auto you need under 70 or 80 ping. 100-150 tbh your better off with explosives. Arguable on jugg though since you have so much hp if you use autos you can just slowly wittle them down. _________________ Joined: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 4:24 am Left: Wed 05 Mar, 2013 9:35 pm Posts in 2013: 1 I always edit for typos.
Sun May 13, 2012 10:30 pm

FreaK367 Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm Posts: 587 Location: England Steam Gamer Name: FreaK	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay miqueloz wrote: Omg, proof that spinfusors are overpowered. Buff automatics to automagics NOW Tribal Fanatic + Slayer takes a lot more effort than any automatic achievement, I had to duel my ass off to get that without a death, facing Plasma Guns, Automatics and Jackals. Absolute pain in the ass to deal with, but doable, you don't need to stoop down to their level. Only yesterday I seen a Raider using the NJ4 get 43 kills and 16 assists in less time than that, and I can imagine he was sitting back with a bacon sandwich in one hand at the same time. Automatics are horribly overpowered. But I reject the statement that you are required to use one if you want to be amongst the best, you just need to try a hell of a lot harder. Which is often too much to ask of the average player, most just jump on the bandwagon and use the most overpowered crap possible. _________________ Desired: Bind VGS commands to keys. Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap) Large Automatic Nerfs Decent Plasma Gun Nerf Large Jackal Nerf
Sun May 13, 2012 10:47 pm

Xbob42 Beta Tester Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:03 pm Posts: 188	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay FreaK367 wrote: miqueloz wrote: Omg, proof that spinfusors are overpowered. Buff automatics to automagics NOW Tribal Fanatic + Slayer takes a lot more effort than any automatic achievement, I had to duel my ass off to get that without a death, facing Plasma Guns, Automatics and Jackals. Absolute pain in the ass to deal with, but doable, you don't need to stoop down to their level. Oh, it's certainly doable, but once you get a streak like that, 99% of the time you get killed it's going to be from something that isn't "satisfying," you'll be shot to death with an automatic, a turret, friggin' SABER LAUNCHER for some reason. Very rarely do my awesome streaks end in me losing an epic duel. Always just like 6 pissed off people shooting me with automatics. Can't dodge everyone if they're all using autos. Which is fine, I wouldn't expect to, but don't make it out like it's EASY to do this. We can do it because we rise above the typical pub player skill level, which isn't saying much. I think autos need a function that isn't "shoot guy in air." I think they'd be amazing chasing tools if you limited their ammo much more, stripped off damage fall-off while also lowering the overall damage and turned them into tools to chip away at far-off flag cappers and finish off wounded targets that you just can't hit otherwise. Giving them to absolutely every class with tons of tons of ammo and making them super-easy to hit with is just silly, and the damage fall-off goes against the (in my opinion) core purpose of the autos: To get fast flag cappers who are at longer distances who you can't catch.
Sun May 13, 2012 11:41 pm

ebonyknife Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 6:17 am Posts: 519	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay FreaK367 wrote: Nobody needs to use the LMG, just learn to use proper weapons. I am a non LMG Juggernaut on a regular basis, and I do just fine. Just came out of game there there being a Juggernaut, without touching the LMG, because it isn't needed, if you need it, you're insulting your own ability. See, no LMG = Ownage. Edit: Also, I turned rank 30 inbetween, yayyyy. Because game designers have always used massive pubstomps as evidence in balancing. Hey i heard brute is OP because generator brute discoballing can net you ridiculous score. Yes im sure when you are by far the most experienced player in a pub you can do well with default, its still far weaker than LMG though and you wouldn't fare nearly so well against people of equal skill. Quote: Which is often too much to ask of the average player, most just jump on the bandwagon and use the most overpowered crap possible. Why would you not use the best weapons. If its in the game, its fun for them and it happens to be the best weapon setup, then theres no reason they shouldn't do it. Its Hi-Rez's job to balance there game properly. Not the players fault for using the most viable weapons like jackals and automatics. _________________ Autos are fine, stop bitchin
Mon May 14, 2012 3:43 am

pholtos Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:43 pm Posts: 68	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay You know... I have terrible aim with the machine gun. I don't know how to aim the dang thing! - A pure technician.
Mon May 14, 2012 3:57 am

ArchangelXv1 Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:05 pm Posts: 1600 Location: Oahu,Hawaii	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay pholtos, lower your sens to about 10 and increase your mouse-space. You should have no problem once you get used to it. FreaK367 wrote: Nobody needs to use the LMG, just learn to use proper weapons. I am a non LMG Juggernaut on a regular basis, and I do just fine. Just came out of game there there being a Juggernaut, without touching the LMG, because it isn't needed, if you need it, you're insulting your own ability. Click the images for the full size versions. See, no LMG = Ownage. Edit: Also, I turned rank 30 inbetween, yayyyy. This really doesn't mean anything...when I play CnH, I get similar scores. It depends on a variety of factors including the overall skill level of the players you're with. It also doesn't change the fact that I die incessantly to auto with a cheapness and at a distance that I find extremly irritating. _________________ Communication is a very worthy thing. Fool's Epic T1 Movie
Mon May 14, 2012 5:51 am

Rangelost Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:09 pm Posts: 157	Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay I did not read the 200 pages of this thread, although I feel Hi-Rez developers should. And urgently. Automatic bullet weapons as they are designed in Tribes: Ascend do not belong in a Tribes game. Period. Some people who have not played the previous Tribes game may wonder, what made the classic chaingun any better? Here are the key elements. SPIN-UP TIME The classic chaingun has a spin-up time, or a delay before the gun begins firing. While this mechanic exists in Tribes: Ascend, roughly two automatic bullet weapons use it, and it only feels as a poor attempt to excuse the extremely high amount of damage dealt by a single bullet. Speaking of which... LOW DAMAGE OUTPUT The classic chaingun is a finishing weapon. It is meant to kill warriors who are already wounded, not those who just respawned. Because of the insane fire rate of most automatic bullet weapons in Tribes: Ascend, and the unreasonably high damage some of them deal, they are by far stronger than any projectile weapons; not only do they deal more damage per second, but it is also much easier to hit a target with bullets than it is with a disc is most situations. POOR ACCURACY This is without a doubt the most important problem. Because the classic chaingun has always been the only automatic bullet weapon in the Tribes series, it has always had very poor accuracy to balance it; the more you fire, the less accurate it becomes. This prevents people from holding down the mouse button and spinning around like ballerinas to score frags. In Tribes: Ascend, players can actually snipe with automatic bullet weapons, and do not get me started with the excessively large hitboxes of those tiny bullets (some of them exceed 1 m³). Automatic bullet weapons in Tribes: Ascend do not have to be removed, like many seem to claim. They have to be fixed. Having some diversity in the game can be fun; instead of everyone using the same chaingun, different classes get machine guns that shoot different colors. I can deal with that. But they are machine guns, not automatic sniper rifles. The bullets should spread at least tenfold wider than they do now. _________________
Mon May 14, 2012 5:59 am

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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

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Chargolith

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:40 pm
Posts: 43

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

AwwThatsTooBad wrote:

Chargolith wrote:

As a non-LMG using Jug, I'm to the point that I will not engage a DMB or an LMG using Jug. I'm a huge easy target to hit, and their dps is just off the charts. Best I can do is stay at range and hope to get a lucky MIRV shot off.

Raiders and soldiers are also pretty hard to beat, but it's still doable.

Light classes depend on the player. Smart ones just stay in the air and hose me, then make sure they land in a place that's hard to hit with a spinfusor. I've lost duels to these guys without even getting a shot off.

Of course, this all depends on if they switch to automatics. If they stick with explosive weapons I'll win more often than not.

Don't worry , you're far from the only one. Peolpe don't ever bother me more than once or twice with lmg and mines either.

I guess sentinel is no longer alone as a class/setup not worth killing or bothering with. Of course I sport the lmg -- you have to.

I'll admit this much, I'd probably use the LMG if I didn't have a 100ms ping. Or maybe I'm just a bad shot, but I can't hit much with an automatic. It does seem though, that the ones that chew me up with an auto, always have a sub 50ms ping.

Sun May 13, 2012 9:43 pm

FreaK367

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 587
Location: England
Steam Gamer Name: FreaK

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Nobody needs to use the LMG, just learn to use proper weapons. I am a non LMG Juggernaut on a regular basis, and I do just fine. Just came out of game there there being a Juggernaut, without touching the LMG, because it isn't needed, if you need it, you're insulting your own ability.

Click the images for the full size versions.

See, no LMG = Ownage.

Edit: Also, I turned rank 30 inbetween, yayyyy. :mrgreen:

_________________

Desired:
Bind VGS commands to keys.
Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap)
Large Automatic Nerfs
Decent Plasma Gun Nerf
Large Jackal Nerf

Sun May 13, 2012 10:18 pm

miqueloz

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:55 pm
Posts: 267

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Omg, proof that spinfusors are overpowered. Buff automatics to automagics NOW

Sun May 13, 2012 10:27 pm

supern00b

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:24 am
Posts: 551
Location: New Zealand

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

Chargolith wrote:

AwwThatsTooBad wrote:

Chargolith wrote:

Everyone knows to rape with auto you need under 70 or 80 ping.
100-150 tbh your better off with explosives. Arguable on jugg though since you have so much hp if you use autos you can just slowly wittle them down.

_________________
Joined: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 4:24 am
Left: Wed 05 Mar, 2013 9:35 pm
Posts in 2013: 1
I always edit for typos.

Sun May 13, 2012 10:30 pm

FreaK367

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 587
Location: England
Steam Gamer Name: FreaK

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

miqueloz wrote:

Omg, proof that spinfusors are overpowered. Buff automatics to automagics NOW

Tribal Fanatic + Slayer takes a lot more effort than any automatic achievement, I had to duel my ass off to get that without a death, facing Plasma Guns, Automatics and Jackals. Absolute pain in the ass to deal with, but doable, you don't need to stoop down to their level.

Only yesterday I seen a Raider using the NJ4 get 43 kills and 16 assists in less time than that, and I can imagine he was sitting back with a bacon sandwich in one hand at the same time. Automatics are horribly overpowered. But I reject the statement that you are required to use one if you want to be amongst the best, you just need to try a hell of a lot harder.

Which is often too much to ask of the average player, most just jump on the bandwagon and use the most overpowered crap possible.

_________________

Desired:
Bind VGS commands to keys.
Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap)
Large Automatic Nerfs
Decent Plasma Gun Nerf
Large Jackal Nerf

Sun May 13, 2012 10:47 pm

Xbob42

Beta Tester

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:03 pm
Posts: 188

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

FreaK367 wrote:

miqueloz wrote:

Omg, proof that spinfusors are overpowered. Buff automatics to automagics NOW

Oh, it's certainly doable, but once you get a streak like that, 99% of the time you get killed it's going to be from something that isn't "satisfying," you'll be shot to death with an automatic, a turret, friggin' SABER LAUNCHER for some reason. Very rarely do my awesome streaks end in me losing an epic duel. Always just like 6 pissed off people shooting me with automatics. Can't dodge everyone if they're all using autos.

Which is fine, I wouldn't expect to, but don't make it out like it's EASY to do this. We can do it because we rise above the typical pub player skill level, which isn't saying much.

I think autos need a function that isn't "shoot guy in air."

I think they'd be amazing chasing tools if you limited their ammo much more, stripped off damage fall-off while also lowering the overall damage and turned them into tools to chip away at far-off flag cappers and finish off wounded targets that you just can't hit otherwise.

Giving them to absolutely every class with tons of tons of ammo and making them super-easy to hit with is just silly, and the damage fall-off goes against the (in my opinion) core purpose of the autos: To get fast flag cappers who are at longer distances who you can't catch.

Sun May 13, 2012 11:41 pm

ebonyknife

Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 6:17 am
Posts: 519

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

FreaK367 wrote:

Because game designers have always used massive pubstomps as evidence in balancing.

Hey i heard brute is OP because generator brute discoballing can net you ridiculous score.

Yes im sure when you are by far the most experienced player in a pub you can do well with default, its still far weaker than LMG though and you wouldn't fare nearly so well against people of equal skill.

Quote:

Which is often too much to ask of the average player, most just jump on the bandwagon and use the most overpowered crap possible.

Why would you not use the best weapons.

If its in the game, its fun for them and it happens to be the best weapon setup, then theres no reason they shouldn't do it.

Its Hi-Rez's job to balance there game properly. Not the players fault for using the most viable weapons like jackals and automatics.

_________________
Autos are fine, stop bitchin

Mon May 14, 2012 3:43 am

pholtos

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:43 pm
Posts: 68

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

You know... I have terrible aim with the machine gun. I don't know how to aim the dang thing!

- A pure technician.

Mon May 14, 2012 3:57 am

ArchangelXv1

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:05 pm
Posts: 1600
Location: Oahu,Hawaii

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

pholtos, lower your sens to about 10 and increase your mouse-space. You should have no problem once you get used to it.

FreaK367 wrote:

See, no LMG = Ownage.

Edit: Also, I turned rank 30 inbetween, yayyyy. :mrgreen:

This really doesn't mean anything...when I play CnH, I get similar scores.

It depends on a variety of factors including the overall skill level of the players you're with. It also doesn't change the fact that I die incessantly to auto with a cheapness and at a distance that I find extremly irritating.

_________________
Communication is a very worthy thing.

Fool's Epic T1 Movie

Mon May 14, 2012 5:51 am

Rangelost

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:09 pm
Posts: 157

Re: Machine guns are destroying good gameplay

I did not read the 200 pages of this thread, although I feel Hi-Rez developers should. And urgently. Automatic bullet weapons as they are designed in Tribes: Ascend do not belong in a Tribes game. Period. Some people who have not played the previous Tribes game may wonder, what made the classic chaingun any better? Here are the key elements.

SPIN-UP TIME
The classic chaingun has a spin-up time, or a delay before the gun begins firing. While this mechanic exists in Tribes: Ascend, roughly two automatic bullet weapons use it, and it only feels as a poor attempt to excuse the extremely high amount of damage dealt by a single bullet. Speaking of which...

LOW DAMAGE OUTPUT
The classic chaingun is a finishing weapon. It is meant to kill warriors who are already wounded, not those who just respawned. Because of the insane fire rate of most automatic bullet weapons in Tribes: Ascend, and the unreasonably high damage some of them deal, they are by far stronger than any projectile weapons; not only do they deal more damage per second, but it is also much easier to hit a target with bullets than it is with a disc is most situations.

POOR ACCURACY
This is without a doubt the most important problem. Because the classic chaingun has always been the only automatic bullet weapon in the Tribes series, it has always had very poor accuracy to balance it; the more you fire, the less accurate it becomes. This prevents people from holding down the mouse button and spinning around like ballerinas to score frags. In Tribes: Ascend, players can actually snipe with automatic bullet weapons, and do not get me started with the excessively large hitboxes of those tiny bullets (some of them exceed 1 m³).

Automatic bullet weapons in Tribes: Ascend do not have to be removed, like many seem to claim. They have to be fixed. Having some diversity in the game can be fun; instead of everyone using the same chaingun, different classes get machine guns that shoot different colors. I can deal with that. But they are machine guns, not automatic sniper rifles. The bullets should spread at least tenfold wider than they do now.

_________________

Mon May 14, 2012 5:59 am

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Machine guns are destroying good gameplay