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Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)
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JohnBono Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:24 pm Posts: 5	Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!) I've heard a lot of complaints lately from TCN players (especially friends of mine) about how the class isn't strong enough. This always aggravates me because I personally find TCN way too strong at dealing direct damage (mostly with the Thumper) and the Light Turret deals way too much damage in base-rushing situations. (Think how much damage two Light Turrets can do to you, even as a JUG between firing off Mortar rounds.) The problem with the Thumper isn't so much how much damage it deals, but how much of an 'easy mode' weapon it is compared to other explosive weapons. (Mortar and Mirv launcher will bounce at short ranges; Spinfuser shots move more slowly.) It's just too easy to aim. The problem with the Light Turret IMO isn't how much damage it deals, its hitscan nature, or even it's fire rate. It's problem is that it has a SUSTAINED fire rate that is too high. The biggest shortcoming of the TCN is its inability to support in more aspects of the game. SUGGESTIONS: 1) Make the TCN repair gun able to repair allies. This is something every repair gun could do in T1/T2, and it would give the TCN another active role during flag defense, and gives them a reason to attack enemy bases (repairing a more 'tanky' class that you're holed up in the enemy gen room with). 2) Replace the Thumper with a T1/T2 style Grenade Launcher. Give it the same damage/radius, but make it take a little more skill to wield (since it would bounce at short ranges). 3) Make the Light Turret use energy, similar to T1/T2. This would let it keep its initial fast fire rate for a couple of seconds (might even have to buff the fire rate or target acquire rate for balance), and then have it fire at a slower rate as its energy recharges. This would be a slight buff to Raiders (more of incentive to go into bases with EMP Grenades), and synergizes with the next point. 4) Add the Charge Grenade the the game. THE CHARGE GRENADE: The Charge Grenade is a belt item is in a lot of ways the antithesis to the EMP Grenade, with a few added features to make it a great support item. It fills in the design hole that TCN doesn't have a belt item that fits well with the class, and adds another dimension of skill. The Charge Grenade specifically does: 1) Does damage to enemies comparable to other grenades. 2) Adds energy to allies, allied vehicles, and allied Light Turrets in its blast radius. This has a lot of benefits to the TCN, making them able to help a flag runner get the extra juice they need to keep going (think making it up to the flag stand on Crossfire or Arx Novena when you've been knocked off route). It makes them able to keep Light Turrets firing at their high speed for longer (and in an enclosed area, you'd likely be hitting the enemy with it at the same time). 3) Makes a normal Turret fire faster for a short duration. 4) Powers an unpowered structure for a short duration. This can be a Turret, Light Turret, Force Field, Inventory Station, or Vehicle Pad. I think these are a few changes that would make the TCN a much more fun class to play, add a little more skill to playing the class, and address both the areas where the TCN is underpowered and overpowered in its roles. Edit: Clarification on turret energy; Light Turrets would spawn with full energy, and would still be able to fire when the generator is down, so long as they have energy. However, they would not charge naturally if the Generator is down. Last edited by JohnBono on Tue May 08, 2012 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tue May 08, 2012 6:02 pm

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!) I'm not sure what precise problems these changes are designed to solve. The Technician's decently-balanced as long as you aren't transitioning too much between indoor/outdoor play (which each require a different loadout) and I'm not so sure about those charge grenades. For one thing, it makes it pretty pointless to try to prevent enemies from getting vehicles by attacking the generator: Enemies will just go Tech with Wheel-Deal/Pilot, and now Charge grenades, and buy whatever they want whenever they want it. It's not like other grenade types help them while piloting. Also, suicide gives you more grenades, so depending on how long each shot keeps a base turret up... _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Tue May 08, 2012 6:12 pm

terminalinsanity Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:08 pm Posts: 339 Location: Canada	Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!) I dunno who says tcn is underpowered. They're idiots. Its a little bit OVERPOWERED. Especily with the thumper and ability to select a secondary weapon instead of repair gun, you turn the TCN into a soldier with turrets. _________________
Tue May 08, 2012 6:42 pm

tehjester Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:11 pm Posts: 450	Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!) terminalinsanity wrote: I dunno who says tcn is underpowered. They're idiots. Its a little bit OVERPOWERED. Especily with the thumper and ability to select a secondary weapon instead of repair gun, you turn the TCN into a soldier with turrets. Not even close to OP. Have you even played soldier? Much more mobility, has a thumper and an AR at the same time, can play inside and outside at the same time, etc. etc. There is a good reason there are not "three-tech" offenses in comp play, instead of three raiders. They would get owned.
Tue May 08, 2012 7:18 pm

Fallwind Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:36 pm Posts: 740	Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!) as a defensive class the TCN needs to be able to deal with raiders, jugs, infs, slds and brutes. There is no advantage to having a better repair tool if you can't clear the room first, to that end there are only two ways you can balance the TCN vs those classes. 1) lower the power of their primary weapon and balance the tcn on the assumption that their turrets are up. This would result in a nerf to both the thumper and the smg, but a very large increase in turret hp. Turrets would also need to be taken off the gen as the tcn would need their added firepower at all times to help clear the room. 2) have the power in the hands of the tcn's primary weapon and keep the turrets extremely fragile. This way the tcn is balanced around their turrets either not working at all (gens are down) or not working for long (takes one or two shots from any class they are likely to be defending against). Now, I understand the OP would rather nerf the thumper and put the power in the hands of the aim-botted turrets, but I must respectfully disagree. _________________ BOOMS FOR THE BOOM GOD! Play to win or I will.
Tue May 08, 2012 7:29 pm

JohnBono Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:24 pm Posts: 5	Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!) hvcterr wrote: I'm not sure what precise problems these changes are designed to solve. The big issues I'm trying to solve are: TCN doesn't have a belt item that fits its role; Light Turrets a little too good at DPS (when powered); TCNs aren't good enough at clearing the base with Gens down; TCN could be more fun to play; and the Thumper is too much guaranteed damage for a support class. The Charge Grenade solves the first, and when combined with the turret change, solves the second. I'll clarify it in the OP, but Light Turrets would spawn with full energy, and wouldn't recharge when the gen is down, but would still be operational assuming they have energy. Quote: For one thing, it makes it pretty pointless to try to prevent enemies from getting vehicles by attacking the generator: Enemies will just go Tech with Wheel-Deal/Pilot, and now Charge grenades, and buy whatever they want whenever they want it. It's not like other grenade types help them while piloting. Also, suicide gives you more grenades, so depending on how long each shot keeps a base turret up... Is this really a terrible consequence? I've never decided to attack a gen room because the other team had too many vehicles. You couldn't keep a Turret up indefinitely by re-spawning because you would have to keep traveling to it, and even then you'd be devoting a lot of energy to it. Fallwind wrote: Now, I understand the OP would rather nerf the thumper and put the power in the hands of the aim-botted turrets, but I must respectfully disagree. I don't see this as a buff to the Turrets, but a re-balance that fixes it's high long-term DPS while giving it more strength when actively attended by a TCN, and give it some functionality when the gens are down.
Tue May 08, 2012 10:05 pm

terminalinsanity Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:08 pm Posts: 339 Location: Canada	Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!) tehjester wrote: terminalinsanity wrote: I dunno who says tcn is underpowered. They're idiots. Its a little bit OVERPOWERED. Especily with the thumper and ability to select a secondary weapon instead of repair gun, you turn the TCN into a soldier with turrets. Not even close to OP. Have you even played soldier? Much more mobility, has a thumper and an AR at the same time, can play inside and outside at the same time, etc. etc. There is a good reason there are not "three-tech" offenses in comp play, instead of three raiders. They would get owned. The TCN's smg is arguably the best in the game. I have no problem taking out nearly anyone with it, especially heavy armors. The thumper is unlockable for the TCN also if you like explosives. And the repair gun can be replaced by the sparrow which is extremely good, or a hitscan shotgun which is very OP especially vs light armors TCN rarely repairs his own turrets anyways, I more often just grab a new one from inv station instead of wasting time repairing them I've done a lot of midmap harassment as TCN and can confirm, the tcn is by no means underpowered. _________________
Tue May 08, 2012 10:10 pm

JohnBono Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:24 pm Posts: 5	Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!) I feel like the TCN SMG is good, but not excellent. A slight nerf to falloff range might be in order, but I'd make a small tweak to it after any other balance changes Hi-Rez might already be considering. Now if you want to nerf an SMG, make it the Rhino. That thing needs to be mid-to-close range only.
Thu May 10, 2012 10:15 pm

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Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)

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JohnBono

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:24 pm
Posts: 5

Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)

I've heard a lot of complaints lately from TCN players (especially friends of mine) about how the class isn't strong enough. This always aggravates me because I personally find TCN way too strong at dealing direct damage (mostly with the Thumper) and the Light Turret deals way too much damage in base-rushing situations. (Think how much damage two Light Turrets can do to you, even as a JUG between firing off Mortar rounds.)
The problem with the Thumper isn't so much how much damage it deals, but how much of an 'easy mode' weapon it is compared to other explosive weapons. (Mortar and Mirv launcher will bounce at short ranges; Spinfuser shots move more slowly.) It's just too easy to aim.
The problem with the Light Turret IMO isn't how much damage it deals, its hitscan nature, or even it's fire rate. It's problem is that it has a SUSTAINED fire rate that is too high.
The biggest shortcoming of the TCN is its inability to support in more aspects of the game.

SUGGESTIONS:

1) Make the TCN repair gun able to repair allies. This is something every repair gun could do in T1/T2, and it would give the TCN another active role during flag defense, and gives them a reason to attack enemy bases (repairing a more 'tanky' class that you're holed up in the enemy gen room with).
2) Replace the Thumper with a T1/T2 style Grenade Launcher. Give it the same damage/radius, but make it take a little more skill to wield (since it would bounce at short ranges).
3) Make the Light Turret use energy, similar to T1/T2. This would let it keep its initial fast fire rate for a couple of seconds (might even have to buff the fire rate or target acquire rate for balance), and then have it fire at a slower rate as its energy recharges. This would be a slight buff to Raiders (more of incentive to go into bases with EMP Grenades), and synergizes with the next point.
4) Add the Charge Grenade the the game.

THE CHARGE GRENADE:

The Charge Grenade is a belt item is in a lot of ways the antithesis to the EMP Grenade, with a few added features to make it a great support item. It fills in the design hole that TCN doesn't have a belt item that fits well with the class, and adds another dimension of skill. The Charge Grenade specifically does:
1) Does damage to enemies comparable to other grenades.
2) Adds energy to allies, allied vehicles, and allied Light Turrets in its blast radius. This has a lot of benefits to the TCN, making them able to help a flag runner get the extra juice they need to keep going (think making it up to the flag stand on Crossfire or Arx Novena when you've been knocked off route). It makes them able to keep Light Turrets firing at their high speed for longer (and in an enclosed area, you'd likely be hitting the enemy with it at the same time).
3) Makes a normal Turret fire faster for a short duration.
4) Powers an unpowered structure for a short duration. This can be a Turret, Light Turret, Force Field, Inventory Station, or Vehicle Pad.

I think these are a few changes that would make the TCN a much more fun class to play, add a little more skill to playing the class, and address both the areas where the TCN is underpowered and overpowered in its roles.

Edit: Clarification on turret energy; Light Turrets would spawn with full energy, and would still be able to fire when the generator is down, so long as they have energy. However, they would not charge naturally if the Generator is down.

Last edited by JohnBono on Tue May 08, 2012 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tue May 08, 2012 6:02 pm

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)

I'm not sure what precise problems these changes are designed to solve. The Technician's decently-balanced as long as you aren't transitioning too much between indoor/outdoor play (which each require a different loadout) and I'm not so sure about those charge grenades.

For one thing, it makes it pretty pointless to try to prevent enemies from getting vehicles by attacking the generator: Enemies will just go Tech with Wheel-Deal/Pilot, and now Charge grenades, and buy whatever they want whenever they want it. It's not like other grenade types help them while piloting.

Also, suicide gives you more grenades, so depending on how long each shot keeps a base turret up...

_________________
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Tue May 08, 2012 6:12 pm

terminalinsanity

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:08 pm
Posts: 339
Location: Canada

Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)

I dunno who says tcn is underpowered. They're idiots.

Its a little bit OVERPOWERED. Especily with the thumper and ability to select a secondary weapon instead of repair gun, you turn the TCN into a soldier with turrets.

_________________

Tue May 08, 2012 6:42 pm

tehjester

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 450

Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)

terminalinsanity wrote:

Not even close to OP. Have you even played soldier? Much more mobility, has a thumper and an AR at the same time, can play inside and outside at the same time, etc. etc. There is a good reason there are not "three-tech" offenses in comp play, instead of three raiders. They would get owned.

Tue May 08, 2012 7:18 pm

Fallwind

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:36 pm
Posts: 740

Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)

as a defensive class the TCN needs to be able to deal with raiders, jugs, infs, slds and brutes. There is no advantage to having a better repair tool if you can't clear the room first, to that end there are only two ways you can balance the TCN vs those classes.

1) lower the power of their primary weapon and balance the tcn on the assumption that their turrets are up. This would result in a nerf to both the thumper and the smg, but a very large increase in turret hp. Turrets would also need to be taken off the gen as the tcn would need their added firepower at all times to help clear the room.

2) have the power in the hands of the tcn's primary weapon and keep the turrets extremely fragile. This way the tcn is balanced around their turrets either not working at all (gens are down) or not working for long (takes one or two shots from any class they are likely to be defending against).

Now, I understand the OP would rather nerf the thumper and put the power in the hands of the aim-botted turrets, but I must respectfully disagree.

_________________
BOOMS FOR THE BOOM GOD!

Play to win or I will.

Tue May 08, 2012 7:29 pm

JohnBono

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:24 pm
Posts: 5

Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)

hvcterr wrote:

I'm not sure what precise problems these changes are designed to solve.

The big issues I'm trying to solve are: TCN doesn't have a belt item that fits its role; Light Turrets a little too good at DPS (when powered); TCNs aren't good enough at clearing the base with Gens down; TCN could be more fun to play; and the Thumper is too much guaranteed damage for a support class.
The Charge Grenade solves the first, and when combined with the turret change, solves the second. I'll clarify it in the OP, but Light Turrets would spawn with full energy, and wouldn't recharge when the gen is down, but would still be operational assuming they have energy.

Quote:

For one thing, it makes it pretty pointless to try to prevent enemies from getting vehicles by attacking the generator: Enemies will just go Tech with Wheel-Deal/Pilot, and now Charge grenades, and buy whatever they want whenever they want it. It's not like other grenade types help them while piloting.
Also, suicide gives you more grenades, so depending on how long each shot keeps a base turret up...

Is this really a terrible consequence? I've never decided to attack a gen room because the other team had too many vehicles. You couldn't keep a Turret up indefinitely by re-spawning because you would have to keep traveling to it, and even then you'd be devoting a lot of energy to it.

Fallwind wrote:

Now, I understand the OP would rather nerf the thumper and put the power in the hands of the aim-botted turrets, but I must respectfully disagree.

I don't see this as a buff to the Turrets, but a re-balance that fixes it's high long-term DPS while giving it more strength when actively attended by a TCN, and give it some functionality when the gens are down.

Tue May 08, 2012 10:05 pm

terminalinsanity

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:08 pm
Posts: 339
Location: Canada

Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)

tehjester wrote:

terminalinsanity wrote:

The TCN's smg is arguably the best in the game. I have no problem taking out nearly anyone with it, especially heavy armors. The thumper is unlockable for the TCN also if you like explosives. And the repair gun can be replaced by the sparrow which is extremely good, or a hitscan shotgun which is very OP especially vs light armors

TCN rarely repairs his own turrets anyways, I more often just grab a new one from inv station instead of wasting time repairing them

I've done a lot of midmap harassment as TCN and can confirm, the tcn is by no means underpowered.

_________________

Tue May 08, 2012 10:10 pm

JohnBono

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:24 pm
Posts: 5

Re: Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)

I feel like the TCN SMG is good, but not excellent. A slight nerf to falloff range might be in order, but I'd make a small tweak to it after any other balance changes Hi-Rez might already be considering.
Now if you want to nerf an SMG, make it the Rhino. That thing needs to be mid-to-close range only.

Thu May 10, 2012 10:15 pm

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Slight Rebalancing of TCN (With Charge Grenades!)