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Automatic weapon balance?
Author	Message
Pkunk Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:42 am Posts: 351	Re: Automatic weapon balance? DeadCellSpawn wrote: if its so easy to use automatics like you say then why is it that only the good players do well with them? the way i see it is this isn't a nerf automatics thread this is a "please nerf the good players i want to be bad but still succeed at the game." you seem to have it backwards if anyone thinks the game is too hard its you people that are crying for nerfs not the other way around. you wouldn't be complaining otherwise. You don't have to be good to take down heavies with automatics. Only Juggers can do something about that and what they do is to use their own automatic. Far too many players think they are "good" while they are spamming their auto (sometimes even combined with a shield) and out dps players that use weapons that actually take skill to use. Sure there is skill in tracking with an auto too but you cannot really compare. Anything that make staying mostly on ground a better tactic than staying in the air makes the Tribes franchise die a little. There is other games for that, games where you cannot get up in teh air. This is easy to fix. The devs just have to give us match maker games that is explosives or classic only. The auto spammers get their games where they can spam each other and the rest of us get what we want. Everybody wins and it was peace and happiness ever after.
Mon May 07, 2012 7:34 am

cameirus Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:32 am Posts: 99	Re: Automatic weapon balance? DeadCellSpawn wrote: if its so easy to use automatics like you say then why is it that only the good players do well with them? the way i see it is this isn't a nerf automatics thread this is a "please nerf the good players i want to be bad but still succeed at the game." you seem to have it backwards if anyone thinks the game is too hard its you people that are crying for nerfs not the other way around. you wouldn't be complaining otherwise. No. a good player with a spinfusor will hit a lot of shots, but is still limited by projectile speed, reload time and the other person being able to dodge the shot. And their oponent can increase their chance fo survival by energy management and staying airborne. With an auto a good player can land practially evey shot. Its a constant stream of death, You can stand, dodge, fly or flee, it does not matter. I can hit you halfway across a map withe ease (the new raider secondary is esp good for this) and kill your health regen. If I catch you in teh air, you cant even dodge, you are just going to eat my bullets and die. the problem is the skill level for autos is pretty low. A bad player will miss yes. A mediocre player with an auto will kill a good player with a spinfusor. And a good player wiht an auto will dominate anyone. For me its not that autos are OP (they are) its that they change the game. With projectiles (spinfusors, explosives) you have a match where speed matters, where keeping airbourne matters, where you can appllaud being killed by that bllueplate special. with autos, it promotes ground based play, which is slow and tends to favour turtleing in bases. And I can get that in any other FPS.
Mon May 07, 2012 7:45 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4888 Location: NA East	Re: Automatic weapon balance? lol why are you still trying to reason with this troll? I've not seen him defend a single nerf. He obviously needs all the help he can get. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Mon May 07, 2012 7:50 am

miqueloz Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:55 pm Posts: 267	Re: Automatic weapon balance? Oishi wrote: Humm so how can i say it nicely..... I can't... Saying auto's need skill shows you level of intelligence. Saying autos don't need skill shows your level of intelligence. That is, you don't have any. Saying anything else is retarded, whether you like autos or not. It is the most simple thing in the world to prove as well. Otherwise all the auto duels would end 50-50, no matter the skill of the user.
Mon May 07, 2012 7:55 am

ArchangelXv1 Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:05 pm Posts: 1600 Location: Oahu,Hawaii	Re: Automatic weapon balance? cameirus wrote: No. a good player with a spinfusor will hit a lot of shots, but is still limited by projectile speed, reload time and the other person being able to dodge the shot. And their oponent can increase their chance fo survival by energy management and staying airborne. With an auto a good player can land practially evey shot. Its a constant stream of death, You can stand, dodge, fly or flee, it does not matter. I can hit you halfway across a map withe ease (the new raider secondary is esp good for this) and kill your health regen. If I catch you in teh air, you cant even dodge, you are just going to eat my bullets and die. the problem is the skill level for autos is pretty low. A bad player will miss yes. A mediocre player with an auto will kill a good player with a spinfusor. And a good player wiht an auto will dominate anyone. For me its not that autos are OP (they are) its that they change the game. With projectiles (spinfusors, explosives) you have a match where speed matters, where keeping airbourne matters, where you can appllaud being killed by that bllueplate special. with autos, it promotes ground based play, which is slow and tends to favour turtleing in bases. And I can get that in any other FPS. Truly an epic post...and the core of the issue. T:A is simply different than previous iterations of Tribes due to the auto-centric gamplay. _________________ Communication is a very worthy thing. Fool's Epic T1 Movie
Mon May 07, 2012 8:18 am

DeadCellSpawn Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:12 am Posts: 407	Re: Automatic weapon balance? -AEnubis- wrote: lol why are you still trying to reason with this troll? I've not seen him defend a single nerf. He obviously needs all the help he can get. haha he called me a troll. literally every thread i see you in is you crying for nerfs for practically every single thing in the game. obviously you are the one in need of all the help you can get by nerfing anything that kills you.
Mon May 07, 2012 8:29 am

starlinvf Beta Tester Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:31 am Posts: 1478	Re: Automatic weapon balance? ArchangelXv1 wrote: cameirus wrote: snip Truly an epic post...and the core of the issue. T:A is simply different than previous iterations of Tribes due to the auto-centric gamplay. You can also trace that back to the floaty physics, coupled with the weak jets, which also changed the face of Disk fights. Autos aren't hindered by this, it benefits actually, and then took it one step further by removing the 2 core balance elements.... Spin up and penalizing sustained fire (be it CoF bloom, low ammo reserves, heating, etc). Without those counter-aspects, there is no disadvantage to just spamming shots in the hopes enough of them will hit to kill your opponent, while putting continuous pressure that keeps them from getting into a better position. Since the explosives oddly require more precision to be used effectively, positioning is critical. _________________ "Even if it is just a gimmick, you can bet it'll be a crowd pleaser to see a player's feet kick up in the air and initiate a top down attack."
Mon May 07, 2012 8:35 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4888 Location: NA East	Re: Automatic weapon balance? DeadCellSpawn wrote: obviously you are the one in need of all the help you can get by nerfing anything that kills you. Same flame, different post. Trolls gonna troll. -AEnubis- wrote: This quote says it all: Cyberlink wrote: Todd actually brought up this fact in an interview. "People thought the game was too hard.." And now you have what is Tribes:Ascend. Reaching a wider audience is more important. Anyone defending equipment or a mechanic in this game that is arguably OP falls on the same side of this fence. Either you think aspects of this game are too hard, or they need to be nerfed into balance. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Mon May 07, 2012 8:58 am

seffarox Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:14 am Posts: 53	Re: Automatic weapon balance? I play a jugg and it is completely unfair that players who chase me stop me from regenerating through hitting me on long range, they do not deal much damage that way, because their aim sucks, its completely luck if they hit me on long range but it works. They on the other hand when being chase by me are long over a hill, shooting a spin fuser after them is useless. Or they wait on a hill on capture and hold, they wait for me and they fly the whole time till im dead, Well, hitting them in the air might solve this problem, but im not that good yet to get many blue plates. It isnt fun, I would love to play against others, who only play with explosives instead of players who only wait for me to be on low health to finish me off or players who hit me few times run away hit me few times and so on _________________
Mon May 07, 2012 9:15 am

Mabeline Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:56 am Posts: 329 Location: eSports	Re: Automatic weapon balance? Oishi wrote: Humm so how can i say it nicely..... I can't... Saying auto's need skill shows you level of intelligence. These zealots, man... This thread is getting seriously ridiculous, there are a couple classes (raider, jugg) that have some whack combos (shield/nj4 and disc/lmg respectively) that can be slightly adjusted, but most of this thread is just a bunch of pubbers claiming they understand balance and then claiming previous Tribes never devolved into a chainfest (spoiler: it did). When it comes to real games I'll often rather be in the air than on the ground where I will get instagibbed by the hugely forgiving splash damage, especially in standoff situations where you dying can mean a win or a loss. Explosive weapons account for a huge percentage of kills in real games and their very presence has a huge effect on positioning, especially in teamplay situations. I'd like to see some changes to the way explosives work (faster projectile, slightly bigger hitbox, slightly faster reload) to compensate for the relatively high air control, slower disc, and smaller player hitboxes. T2C disc was ~15% faster with a 0.1s shorter reload (T1 disc had something like a 0.3s shorter reload), and the player hitboxes were significantly larger even though the projectile hitboxes were not. There are a bunch of secondary knobs that could be fiddled, sure, but this doesn't even resemble rational discussion. _________________ SkepticTA wrote: The only thing comp needs to ban is Mabel.
Mon May 07, 2012 9:26 am

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Automatic weapon balance?

Author

Message

Pkunk

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:42 am
Posts: 351

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

DeadCellSpawn wrote:

if its so easy to use automatics like you say then why is it that only the good players do well with them?

the way i see it is this isn't a nerf automatics thread this is a "please nerf the good players i want to be bad but still succeed at the game."

you seem to have it backwards if anyone thinks the game is too hard its you people that are crying for nerfs not the other way around. you wouldn't be complaining otherwise.

You don't have to be good to take down heavies with automatics. Only Juggers can do something about that and what they do is to use their own automatic. Far too many players think they are "good" while they are spamming their auto (sometimes even combined with a shield) and out dps players that use weapons that actually take skill to use. Sure there is skill in tracking with an auto too but you cannot really compare.

Anything that make staying mostly on ground a better tactic than staying in the air makes the Tribes franchise die a little. There is other games for that, games where you cannot get up in teh air.

This is easy to fix. The devs just have to give us match maker games that is explosives or classic only. The auto spammers get their games where they can spam each other and the rest of us get what we want. Everybody wins and it was peace and happiness ever after.

Mon May 07, 2012 7:34 am

cameirus

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:32 am
Posts: 99

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

DeadCellSpawn wrote:

No.

a good player with a spinfusor will hit a lot of shots, but is still limited by projectile speed, reload time and the other person being able to dodge the shot. And their oponent can increase their chance fo survival by energy management and staying airborne.

With an auto a good player can land practially evey shot. Its a constant stream of death, You can stand, dodge, fly or flee, it does not matter. I can hit you halfway across a map withe ease (the new raider secondary is esp good for this) and kill your health regen.
If I catch you in teh air, you cant even dodge, you are just going to eat my bullets and die.

the problem is the skill level for autos is pretty low. A bad player will miss yes. A mediocre player with an auto will kill a good player with a spinfusor. And a good player wiht an auto will dominate anyone.

For me its not that autos are OP (they are) its that they change the game. With projectiles (spinfusors, explosives) you have a match where speed matters, where keeping airbourne matters, where you can appllaud being killed by that bllueplate special.

with autos, it promotes ground based play, which is slow and tends to favour turtleing in bases. And I can get that in any other FPS.

Mon May 07, 2012 7:45 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4888
Location: NA East

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

lol why are you still trying to reason with this troll? I've not seen him defend a single nerf. He obviously needs all the help he can get.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Mon May 07, 2012 7:50 am

miqueloz

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:55 pm
Posts: 267

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

Oishi wrote:

Humm so how can i say it nicely..... I can't...
Saying auto's need skill shows you level of intelligence.

Saying autos don't need skill shows your level of intelligence. That is, you don't have any. Saying anything else is retarded, whether you like autos or not. It is the most simple thing in the world to prove as well. Otherwise all the auto duels would end 50-50, no matter the skill of the user.

Mon May 07, 2012 7:55 am

ArchangelXv1

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:05 pm
Posts: 1600
Location: Oahu,Hawaii

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

cameirus wrote:

Truly an epic post...and the core of the issue. T:A is simply different than previous iterations of Tribes due to the auto-centric gamplay.

_________________
Communication is a very worthy thing.

Fool's Epic T1 Movie

Mon May 07, 2012 8:18 am

DeadCellSpawn

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:12 am
Posts: 407

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

-AEnubis- wrote:

lol why are you still trying to reason with this troll? I've not seen him defend a single nerf. He obviously needs all the help he can get.

haha he called me a troll.

literally every thread i see you in is you crying for nerfs for practically every single thing in the game. obviously you are the one in need of all the help you can get by nerfing anything that kills you.

Mon May 07, 2012 8:29 am

starlinvf

Beta Tester

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:31 am
Posts: 1478

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

ArchangelXv1 wrote:

cameirus wrote:

*snip*

Truly an epic post...and the core of the issue. T:A is simply different than previous iterations of Tribes due to the auto-centric gamplay.

You can also trace that back to the floaty physics, coupled with the weak jets, which also changed the face of Disk fights. Autos aren't hindered by this, it benefits actually, and then took it one step further by removing the 2 core balance elements.... Spin up and penalizing sustained fire (be it CoF bloom, low ammo reserves, heating, etc).

Without those counter-aspects, there is no disadvantage to just spamming shots in the hopes enough of them will hit to kill your opponent, while putting continuous pressure that keeps them from getting into a better position. Since the explosives oddly require more precision to be used effectively, positioning is critical.

_________________
"Even if it is just a gimmick, you can bet it'll be a crowd pleaser to see a player's feet kick up in the air and initiate a top down attack."

Mon May 07, 2012 8:35 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4888
Location: NA East

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

DeadCellSpawn wrote:

obviously you are the one in need of all the help you can get by nerfing anything that kills you.

Same flame, different post. Trolls gonna troll.

-AEnubis- wrote:

This quote says it all:

Cyberlink wrote:

Todd actually brought up this fact in an interview.

"People thought the game was too hard.."

And now you have what is Tribes:Ascend. Reaching a wider audience is more important.

Anyone defending equipment or a mechanic in this game that is arguably OP falls on the same side of this fence. Either you think aspects of this game are too hard, or they need to be nerfed into balance.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Mon May 07, 2012 8:58 am

seffarox

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:14 am
Posts: 53

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

I play a jugg and it is completely unfair that players who chase me stop me from regenerating
through hitting me on long range, they do not deal much damage that way, because their aim sucks, its completely luck if they hit me on long range but it works.
They on the other hand when being chase by me are long over a hill, shooting a spin fuser after them is useless.
Or they wait on a hill on capture and hold, they wait for me and they fly the whole time till im dead,
Well, hitting them in the air might solve this problem, but im not that good yet to get many blue plates. It isnt fun, I would love to play against others, who only play with explosives instead of
players who only wait for me to be on low health to finish me off or players who hit me few times
run away hit me few times and so on

_________________

Mon May 07, 2012 9:15 am

Mabeline

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:56 am
Posts: 329
Location: eSports

Re: Automatic weapon balance?

Oishi wrote:

Humm so how can i say it nicely..... I can't...
Saying auto's need skill shows you level of intelligence.

These zealots, man...

This thread is getting seriously ridiculous, there are a couple classes (raider, jugg) that have some whack combos (shield/nj4 and disc/lmg respectively) that can be slightly adjusted, but most of this thread is just a bunch of pubbers claiming they understand balance and then claiming previous Tribes never devolved into a chainfest (spoiler: it did). When it comes to real games I'll often rather be in the air than on the ground where I will get instagibbed by the hugely forgiving splash damage, especially in standoff situations where you dying can mean a win or a loss.

Explosive weapons account for a huge percentage of kills in real games and their very presence has a huge effect on positioning, especially in teamplay situations. I'd like to see some changes to the way explosives work (faster projectile, slightly bigger hitbox, slightly faster reload) to compensate for the relatively high air control, slower disc, and smaller player hitboxes. T2C disc was ~15% faster with a 0.1s shorter reload (T1 disc had something like a 0.3s shorter reload), and the player hitboxes were significantly larger even though the projectile hitboxes were not.

There are a bunch of secondary knobs that could be fiddled, sure, but this doesn't even resemble rational discussion.

_________________

SkepticTA wrote:

The only thing comp needs to ban is Mabel.

Mon May 07, 2012 9:26 am

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Automatic weapon balance?