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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?
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DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? Follygon wrote: I like it, though the changes might have to be smaller for a start, I'd love to see (just a slight) shift in the game towards making heavies more practical and an actual threat. VGRD, 10/20% has been called modest and too small by some, especially in comparison to the numerous threads calling for 50% auto nerfs. Can't go much lower than 10/20% with a 1-5 rating system. Frostiken wrote: I like, but I totally object to the obvious Infiltrator bias. I don't play INF so any apparent bias towards them would be purely accidental. I'd be happy to fix any problems you point out. The numbers in the thread OP are about half determined by me and about half determined by comment suggestions so suggest away ^^ Wobberjockey wrote: i expected to see a steaming pile of poorly conceived drivel for the OP i was pleasantly surprised Hehe, I know what you mean, there's no telling what tripe you might stumble upon in this forum. I'm glad that I failed to live up to your expectations _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much! Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Fri May 04, 2012 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu May 03, 2012 10:07 am

UnDeaDCyBorG Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 8:48 am Posts: 144	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? Nice ideas going around here, though I mostly lose versus automatics as a heavy because it completely blinds me. I'd personally be in favor of just reducing all damage a heavy takes by 5 or something, it really makes no difference for non-Autos. Can't get much simpler than that, now can it? _________________ uncleanon wrote: If you disagree your opinion is invalid.
Fri May 04, 2012 1:40 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? UnDeaDCyBorG wrote: I'd personally be in favor of just reducing all damage a heavy takes by 5 or something, it really makes no difference for non-Autos. That's another good idea, straight-up defined damage resistance. Could use refining but I'd be happy with something along those lines. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Fri May 04, 2012 1:49 pm

Arrob Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:09 am Posts: 128	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? You forgot something very important. The penetration which you want to include to make Heavies recieve less damage than Lights is already there, but not as difficult, just a easy way. The Guy in the armor obviously always is the same (since you can change it a stations, also look at previous tribes). That means, bot, Heavy and Light, have the same Health. But they have not. This is a simplifiing way to implement armorthickness - just to increase the ones health. If you want to do it most realistic, you need to do make a complicated penetrations system, with every weapon doing different damages to different enemys. But this is just finde, as it has the same effect. Iam talking about it in generall, means also explosive weapons. I wont try to fix automatics in this game, i would remove them.
Sun May 06, 2012 11:09 am

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? Arrob wrote: Heavy and Light, have the same Health. But they have not. This is a simplifiing way to implement armorthickness Are you assuming I didn't know the reasoning behind the health difference? o_0 You're misunderstanding the entire issue that is the cause for this thread... It's not about heavies needing more durability in general, it's about heavies needing more durability against autos. Due to the differences in maneuverability and hitbox sizes heavies are virtually no harder to kill than lights when using an automatic weapon, which defeats the entire purpose behind the heavy. Arrob wrote: The Guy in the armor obviously always is the same Nope, comparing Lights, Mediums and Heavies you see that as you increase the armour size category there are non-armour-related changes that indicate as larger, burlier man inside the suit: Voice pitch is lower in heavier classes. Limb/torso thickness is greater in heavier classes - compare the unarmoured parts of lights and mediums on BE, the lights are skinnier even without armour. Characters are taller in heavier armour - the armour itself contributes a little to the height difference, but especially when comparing lights and mediums it's plain to see that the humans in the Light armour would be the shortest if all classes were unarmoured. The hip and shoulder joints are wider set on heavier classes - armour cannot account for this, the men in the larger armours are just plain bigger with larger skeletons. Conclusion: Light classes are short, skinny men with small skeletons and below average fat and muscle masses. Medium classes are average sized men. Heavy classes are hulking men with large skeletons and above average fat and muscle masses. People come in all shapes and sizes and it makes perfect sense that the larger and stronger you are, the heavier the equipment you are able to wear and carry. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Sun May 06, 2012 11:32 am

Arrob Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:09 am Posts: 128	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? I dont feel why Heavys really need this improved protection. a player with good aim will hit lights nearly a often as heavies even at midrange. If i play Pathfinder, i get killed by a sentinel in 2 seconds with falcon, realizing that hes able to stay in air way longer. also there is no chance to escape this bullet weapons since you can avoid them. a raider needs only 7 shots of his automatic to kill you. An therefore this is an open game, you stay chanceless. with a juggernaut or brute i feel like i have more chances, since targets hit the ground at least 2 times before i go down, mostly more often. The guy in the armor debate is interesting, iam still convinced that hes the same, due to functionality of supply stations, where you change you class as some kind of re-equippment. Also dont forget the naked spawn which afaik existed in previous tribes. i said this already, but you dont seem to recognize them. Although your arguments are very good too. They are about the graphics mostly. But i think we can stop about that since it doesnt matter and currently there cant be a true answer.
Sun May 06, 2012 7:43 pm

Fallwind Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:36 pm Posts: 740	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? A player with GODLY aim, vs a light that doesn't dodge, will hit a light as often as a heavy. In almost all other cases, the light will get hit less and time-to-kill on the two will be surprisingly close. _________________ BOOMS FOR THE BOOM GOD! Play to win or I will.
Sun May 06, 2012 8:00 pm

Durzaka Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:42 pm Posts: 1276	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? when take into account explosive weapons, even 20% wont make much of a difference. medium. 1200 hp average. Sold. spinfusor 900 (910? not in game so i dont recall). So against a medium a direct hit with 20% armor reduction would do 720. Still requires 2 shots to kill. And if it effected explosions as well as direct hits, while they would be just silly, how does a guns explosion get more armor penetration?
Sun May 06, 2012 8:30 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? Durzaka wrote: how does a guns explosion get more armor penetration? Wut? o_0 What are you trying to say Durzaka? I'm genuinely confused. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Sun May 06, 2012 9:50 pm

BurntToShreds Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:12 am Posts: 100	Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? I strongly agree. In my opinion, this would make for better strategizing and team play. I would love to see it implemented.
Tue May 08, 2012 5:03 pm

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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

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DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

Follygon wrote:

I like it, though the changes might have to be smaller for a start, I'd love to see (just a slight) shift in the game towards making heavies more practical and an actual threat.

VGRD, 10/20% has been called modest and too small by some, especially in comparison to the numerous threads calling for 50% auto nerfs.

Can't go much lower than 10/20% with a 1-5 rating system.

Frostiken wrote:

I like, but I totally object to the obvious Infiltrator bias.

I don't play INF so any apparent bias towards them would be purely accidental.
I'd be happy to fix any problems you point out.

The numbers in the thread OP are about half determined by me and about half determined by comment suggestions so suggest away ^^

Wobberjockey wrote:

i expected to see a steaming pile of poorly conceived drivel for the OP

i was pleasantly surprised

Hehe, I know what you mean, there's no telling what tripe you might stumble upon in this forum.

I'm glad that I failed to live up to your expectations :lol:

_________________
This signature is green. I like the colour green.
Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green.
Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!

Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Fri May 04, 2012 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu May 03, 2012 10:07 am

UnDeaDCyBorG

Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 8:48 am
Posts: 144

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

Nice ideas going around here, though I mostly lose versus automatics as a heavy because it completely blinds me.
I'd personally be in favor of just reducing all damage a heavy takes by 5 or something, it really makes no difference for non-Autos.
Can't get much simpler than that, now can it?

_________________

uncleanon wrote:

If you disagree your opinion is invalid.

Fri May 04, 2012 1:40 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

UnDeaDCyBorG wrote:

I'd personally be in favor of just reducing all damage a heavy takes by 5 or something, it really makes no difference for non-Autos.

That's another good idea, straight-up defined damage resistance. Could use refining but I'd be happy with something along those lines.

Fri May 04, 2012 1:49 pm

Arrob

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:09 am
Posts: 128

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

You forgot something very important. The penetration which you want to include to make Heavies recieve less damage than Lights is already there, but not as difficult, just a easy way. The Guy in the armor obviously always is the same (since you can change it a stations, also look at previous tribes). That means, bot, Heavy and Light, have the same Health. But they have not. This is a simplifiing way to implement armorthickness - just to increase the ones health. If you want to do it most realistic, you need to do make a complicated penetrations system, with every weapon doing different damages to different enemys. But this is just finde, as it has the same effect. Iam talking about it in generall, means also explosive weapons. I wont try to fix automatics in this game, i would remove them.

Sun May 06, 2012 11:09 am

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

Arrob wrote:

Heavy and Light, have the same Health. But they have not. This is a simplifiing way to implement armorthickness

Are you assuming I didn't know the reasoning behind the health difference? o_0

You're misunderstanding the entire issue that is the cause for this thread...

It's not about heavies needing more durability in general, it's about heavies needing more durability against autos.
Due to the differences in maneuverability and hitbox sizes heavies are virtually no harder to kill than lights when using an automatic weapon, which defeats the entire purpose behind the heavy.

Arrob wrote:

The Guy in the armor obviously always is the same

Nope, comparing Lights, Mediums and Heavies you see that as you increase the armour size category there are non-armour-related changes that indicate as larger, burlier man inside the suit:

Voice pitch is lower in heavier classes.
Limb/torso thickness is greater in heavier classes - compare the unarmoured parts of lights and mediums on BE, the lights are skinnier even without armour.
Characters are taller in heavier armour - the armour itself contributes a little to the height difference, but especially when comparing lights and mediums it's plain to see that the humans in the Light armour would be the shortest if all classes were unarmoured.
The hip and shoulder joints are wider set on heavier classes - armour cannot account for this, the men in the larger armours are just plain bigger with larger skeletons.

Conclusion:
Light classes are short, skinny men with small skeletons and below average fat and muscle masses.
Medium classes are average sized men.
Heavy classes are hulking men with large skeletons and above average fat and muscle masses.

People come in all shapes and sizes and it makes perfect sense that the larger and stronger you are, the heavier the equipment you are able to wear and carry.

Sun May 06, 2012 11:32 am

Arrob

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:09 am
Posts: 128

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

I dont feel why Heavys really need this improved protection. a player with good aim will hit lights nearly a often as heavies even at midrange. If i play Pathfinder, i get killed by a sentinel in 2 seconds with falcon, realizing that hes able to stay in air way longer. also there is no chance to escape this bullet weapons since you can avoid them. a raider needs only 7 shots of his automatic to kill you. An therefore this is an open game, you stay chanceless. with a juggernaut or brute i feel like i have more chances, since targets hit the ground at least 2 times before i go down, mostly more often.

The guy in the armor debate is interesting, iam still convinced that hes the same, due to functionality of supply stations, where you change you class as some kind of re-equippment. Also dont forget the naked spawn which afaik existed in previous tribes. i said this already, but you dont seem to recognize them. Although your arguments are very good too. They are about the graphics mostly. But i think we can stop about that since it doesnt matter and currently there cant be a true answer.

Sun May 06, 2012 7:43 pm

Fallwind

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:36 pm
Posts: 740

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

A player with GODLY aim, vs a light that doesn't dodge, will hit a light as often as a heavy. In almost all other cases, the light will get hit less and time-to-kill on the two will be surprisingly close.

_________________
BOOMS FOR THE BOOM GOD!

Play to win or I will.

Sun May 06, 2012 8:00 pm

Durzaka

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:42 pm
Posts: 1276

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

when take into account explosive weapons, even 20% wont make much of a difference.

medium. 1200 hp average.

Sold. spinfusor 900 (910? not in game so i dont recall). So against a medium a direct hit with 20% armor reduction would do 720. Still requires 2 shots to kill.

And if it effected explosions as well as direct hits, while they would be just silly, how does a guns explosion get more armor penetration?

Sun May 06, 2012 8:30 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

Durzaka wrote:

how does a guns explosion get more armor penetration?

Wut? o_0

What are you trying to say Durzaka? I'm genuinely confused.

Sun May 06, 2012 9:50 pm

BurntToShreds

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:12 am
Posts: 100

Re: [Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

I strongly agree. In my opinion, this would make for better strategizing and team play. I would love to see it implemented.

Tue May 08, 2012 5:03 pm

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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?