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Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street
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Ixiterra Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:09 am Posts: 336	Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street Dear Hi-Rez, Members of this community have spent many countless hours discussing the state of Tribes: Ascend on these forums to give you feedback and (mostly) constructive discussion. In return, we have received a token developer post here and there but have largely been ignored. Some of the rare feedback we receive has been in the form of HiRezBart's video interviews where the gist of his statements on contentious issues has been, "this is how it is and it's unlikely to change." Now I am fully aware that this is absolutely your game and you fully choose how it gets to where it's going to be. But we are the community supporting your game and that deserves a bit more respect than we have been accorded, in my opinion. When threads reach tens or hundreds of pages long without a single developer post on the issue, when irritating bugs in-game continue to exist that have existed for many months and you release new patches with unbalanced content, when the competitive community has stayed essentially non-existent in a supposed "eSports" title, we have a very imbalanced feedback level. We appear to be giving you all kinds, but you are giving us very little. I want to recap a few of the outstanding major issues many people have with this game: On Game Balance: * Clear goals need to be set for each class that defines its role. To allow for emergent and fun game play, these goals should be somewhat elastic but they should not stray too far lest a class become "overpowered." An example of a class that strays too far is the Technician. They are equipped with two turrets that, while not extremely powerful, are highly annoying and make grabbing the flag difficult when unassisted. This class, even when not physically present, mitigates the ability of flag cappers to do their job. On top of that, the TCN4 gives the technician long range, highly accurate and destructive firepower; the thumper gives them outdoor area denial. The soldier class has been effectively nullified. * Automatic weapons perform better than their grace counterparts in almost every respect. They do more DPS, they are extremely accurate at all ranges, they have essentially unlimited ammo, they deny health regeneration, they crack your visor, and clip reload times are equivalent to a single spinfusor reload. On top of this, weapon switching times are insensibly long and off-hand reloading penalties mean that there is often never a point to not use your automatic. This is highly unbalanced and needs to be severely adjusted to make grace weapons viable again. A few % damage reduction will not be sufficient. On Physics: * The 72kph "speed barrier" is frustrating and unintuitive. I haven't seen a developer post explaining why this exists. It does not hinder capping and it makes chasing a frustrating chore of futility. It makes explosive jumping, one of the most useful tools in a Tribes player's arsenal, effectively useless from a stand still. As an aside, why do nitrons which are already available on the fastest class give so much more impulse than the higher damaging and more prevalent (read: usable by many more classes, see note on elasticity above) disc launcher? It does not promote emergent or fun game play. To keep this post somewhat shorter I'll simply refer you to the hundreds of other threads and thousands of posts on issues players have with the physics of this game. On Irritants: * Screen cracking/blood/shake/etc. This is universally hated. Universally. We are sorry you spent time coding this, but it needs to be removed from the game, or at least made an option to turn off. At the very least, it should only apply to direct disc/thumper hits and grazing mortar hits. * Splash damage. It fails to register damage properly. This is especially obvious on turrets, but it applies just the same to all kinds of shots that register no damage from grace weapons. With the excessively large bullet projectile hitboxes, this is another big disadvantage to using grace weapons. It is bugged, this game is "released," this needs to be addressed before releasing any other additional content. Additionally, splash damage fall-off appears to be unintuitive where a shot generally registers 70% of its damage but then drops immediately to 20 or 30% over a short distance. Anyways, I don't want to make this really long post already longer than it is. You are aware what we complain about, yet we get little to no response as to what direction Hi-Rez intends on taking in these matters. Too little has been done to fix or balance the game before release, and Hi-Rez has already released two patches that are extremely heavy on the content, extremely light on the balance and fixes. At this point I feel I have no choice but to formally protest and stop playing this game until these issues are fixed or at the very least addressed by the developers to know when we can expect changes or if things are clearly set in stone. I think your game is pretty nifty, but the glaring problems keep slapping me in the face and it is ruining my fun.
Thu May 03, 2012 10:17 am

Elysiume Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:33 pm Posts: 1058	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street I'll reserve judgment on a protest, but I absolutely agree that more openness on Hi-Rez's part is a must as development continues. If you look at the dev tracker, almost every post is just addressing bugs. It's been this way for months. Even massive issues (100% inheritance) are lucky to get a single post dismissing the idea. Air strikes, machine guns, inheritance, jetpack behavior, energy regen, screen cracking. I'm sure there are a lot more, but these tend to have large majorities who want change. 100% inheritance was shut down because "internal testers didn't like it" (paraphrased). That was back in beta. Are all of these issues just going to be ignored forever? _________________ 100% inheritance is something the game needs. Jetpacks need to behave more like jetpacks, at all speeds.
Thu May 03, 2012 10:32 am

GrapingTime Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:49 pm Posts: 3	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street +1
Thu May 03, 2012 10:35 am

LordOpeth Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:01 pm Posts: 643	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street While I agree with your points and what you said but staging a protest over a game that is freee to play seems rather absurd. The game appears to be still evolving. I disagree that it should have been put into a released state but if the goal is to bring people to the game the so be it. It appears that the the majority of players of T:A do not contribute to these forums so I can see why that a lot of the design choices are not being made, but only to the "Vets" that have the issues.. I still enjoy playing the game. Its the closest f*** thing I got to a modern day tribes and I wholely support it. I hope it becomes successful that we may see modding and other Tribes sequels with the hopes that one day we get that Tribes game us "vets" want. I have issues with the posts day in and day out that are becoming rather redundant. To constantly discuss the same sit over and over is counter productive. My issues is not with the participants but with the lack of things that will not change so people can either support the game or move on. Also I have an issue with them constantly adding to the game without balancing whats already there. Dont get me started on the prices of skins, something that is purely cosmetic. When HR annoucned this I was happy. Granted I am still bothered by some of the choices that has made it to the build of today I still support HR and will delightfully give them my money when the game becomes more complete. _________________ T1 - MrBungle T2 - (ZOC) MrBungle Why does allot here expcept dieng in big KABOOM glory but dont give honnor to the silent laser thro your head in air HS your dead ? -uFr49
Thu May 03, 2012 10:38 am

mousedisc Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am Posts: 531	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street I'd settle for a "the following threads have been queued for release 1.xxxx" thread every once in a while. _________________ ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS
Thu May 03, 2012 10:46 am

Elysiume Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:33 pm Posts: 1058	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street I'd settle for a dev that posted in threads that were specific changes. I don't expect devs to post in every weapon suggestion deployable suggestion or whatever thread, but there are some more targeted threads that could use responses. We have had dozens (hundreds?) of pages about removing airstrikes, and all we got was +500cr to Tactical Strikes. We have had massive amount of discussion about blanket nerfing automatics to properly fit them into their role as finishers, but have no gotten any response. We have had large agreement in making Quick Draw standard, but having heard a peep in either way. We have had huge and repeated threads requesting a coherent, consistent, and logical physics model, but they've been ignored. I'm not even going to touch on 100% inheritance, because at least that got a response (as short and unsatisfying as it may have been). This forum wants the game to be as good as it can be. I want the game to be as good as it can be. And from what I can tell, Hi-Rez mostly ignores the forums altogether. _________________ 100% inheritance is something the game needs. Jetpacks need to behave more like jetpacks, at all speeds.
Thu May 03, 2012 10:55 am

Ixiterra Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:09 am Posts: 336	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street LordOpeth wrote: While I agree with your points and what you said but staging a protest over a game that is freee to play seems rather absurd. I'm not protesting the game, I'm protesting the lack of feedback we get from the developers. If the game is what it is and the developers like it that way, then so be it. But I want to know that this is what they want and this is how it's going to be. I don't want to be forever led by the carrot in hoping that this will become a game more true to its predecessors. Quote: so I can see why that a lot of the design choices are not being made, but only to the "Vets" that have the issues.. As an anecdote, I had a level 10 or so constantly calling me a "phag" in a CnH yesterday because I was mowing him down in a couple seconds with the TCN4 every time. Quote: My issues is not with the participants but with the lack of things that will not change so people can either support the game or move on. And my issue is that we cannot let anything die when the developers won't tell is what is or isn't set in stone. If someone complains about the same issue for the 100th time, it would be nice if we could simply link them to the post that says "this is how it is and it isn't changing." Quote: When HR annoucned this I was happy. Granted I am still bothered by some of the choices that has made it to the build of today I still support HR and will delightfully give them my money when the game becomes more complete. I'd give them more money in a heartbeat for automatic weapon balance and 72kph/chasing adjustment. But there has been almost no balance compared to content, and no direction for us to see. Again, I'm getting tired of being led by the hope of something better. At least if HR says "deal with it" I can deal with it in whatever way I want. But they haven't even given us that.
Thu May 03, 2012 10:56 am

mousedisc Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am Posts: 531	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street You can't have devs posting in every thread because one people saw that a certain thread had a dev posting in it, you would have a million other people jump into the thread and yell about changes they want too. I'm fine with some sort of after the fact notification. Also, imo I could care less about the dev, I want the guy who is charge of scheduling the devs time aka who has patch approval. I would hope that guy has all the inputs he needs (pubbing community/competitive community etc) before assigning a dev to the task. I would be surprised if devs just randomly read a thread and go "sounds like a good idea" lol. _________________ ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS
Thu May 03, 2012 11:19 am

mousedisc Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am Posts: 531	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street I do completely agree we need more communication from hirez as to whether or not our ideas are getting in. _________________ ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS
Thu May 03, 2012 11:20 am

DemoEvolved Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:28 am Posts: 2031	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street I think your specific examples were catastrophically bad. Tech turrets blocking unassisted cappers is probably the worst argument you could make for getting a dev response. Also, the request to define tight roles for every class might be a short view. I think its very likely every class will recieve equipment options to diversify their roles over time, its just too big to define which exceptions to this goal right now. Very likely there will be a means for Sentinels to attempt to cap in lieu of base d and shutting down flag runners post grab. It would be nice to get more dev posts and guidance, but the forums are really brutal in the extreme vs any dev post with solid statements, its not worth an extended fight when they can just make actual game content instead.
Thu May 03, 2012 11:47 am

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Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

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Ixiterra

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:09 am
Posts: 336

Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

Dear Hi-Rez,

Members of this community have spent many countless hours discussing the state of Tribes: Ascend on these forums to give you feedback and (mostly) constructive discussion. In return, we have received a token developer post here and there but have largely been ignored. Some of the rare feedback we receive has been in the form of HiRezBart's video interviews where the gist of his statements on contentious issues has been, "this is how it is and it's unlikely to change."

Now I am fully aware that this is absolutely your game and you fully choose how it gets to where it's going to be. But we are the community supporting your game and that deserves a bit more respect than we have been accorded, in my opinion. When threads reach tens or hundreds of pages long without a single developer post on the issue, when irritating bugs in-game continue to exist that have existed for many months and you release new patches with unbalanced content, when the competitive community has stayed essentially non-existent in a supposed "eSports" title, we have a very imbalanced feedback level. We appear to be giving you all kinds, but you are giving us very little.

I want to recap a few of the outstanding major issues many people have with this game:

On Game Balance:
* Clear goals need to be set for each class that defines its role. To allow for emergent and fun game play, these goals should be somewhat elastic but they should not stray too far lest a class become "overpowered."

An example of a class that strays too far is the Technician. They are equipped with two turrets that, while not extremely powerful, are highly annoying and make grabbing the flag difficult when unassisted. This class, even when not physically present, mitigates the ability of flag cappers to do their job. On top of that, the TCN4 gives the technician long range, highly accurate and destructive firepower; the thumper gives them outdoor area denial. The soldier class has been effectively nullified.

* Automatic weapons perform better than their grace counterparts in almost every respect. They do more DPS, they are extremely accurate at all ranges, they have essentially unlimited ammo, they deny health regeneration, they crack your visor, and clip reload times are equivalent to a single spinfusor reload. On top of this, weapon switching times are insensibly long and off-hand reloading penalties mean that there is often never a point to not use your automatic. This is highly unbalanced and needs to be severely adjusted to make grace weapons viable again. A few % damage reduction will not be sufficient.

On Physics:
* The 72kph "speed barrier" is frustrating and unintuitive. I haven't seen a developer post explaining why this exists. It does not hinder capping and it makes chasing a frustrating chore of futility. It makes explosive jumping, one of the most useful tools in a Tribes player's arsenal, effectively useless from a stand still. As an aside, why do nitrons which are already available on the fastest class give so much more impulse than the higher damaging and more prevalent (read: usable by many more classes, see note on elasticity above) disc launcher? It does not promote emergent or fun game play.

To keep this post somewhat shorter I'll simply refer you to the hundreds of other threads and thousands of posts on issues players have with the physics of this game.

On Irritants:
* Screen cracking/blood/shake/etc. This is universally hated. Universally. We are sorry you spent time coding this, but it needs to be removed from the game, or at least made an option to turn off. At the very least, it should only apply to direct disc/thumper hits and grazing mortar hits.

* Splash damage. It fails to register damage properly. This is especially obvious on turrets, but it applies just the same to all kinds of shots that register no damage from grace weapons. With the excessively large bullet projectile hitboxes, this is another big disadvantage to using grace weapons. It is bugged, this game is "released," this needs to be addressed before releasing any other additional content. Additionally, splash damage fall-off appears to be unintuitive where a shot generally registers 70% of its damage but then drops immediately to 20 or 30% over a short distance.

Anyways, I don't want to make this really long post already longer than it is. You are aware what we complain about, yet we get little to no response as to what direction Hi-Rez intends on taking in these matters. Too little has been done to fix or balance the game before release, and Hi-Rez has already released two patches that are extremely heavy on the content, extremely light on the balance and fixes.

At this point I feel I have no choice but to formally protest and stop playing this game until these issues are fixed or at the very least addressed by the developers to know when we can expect changes or if things are clearly set in stone. I think your game is pretty nifty, but the glaring problems keep slapping me in the face and it is ruining my fun.

Thu May 03, 2012 10:17 am

Elysiume

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 1058

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

I'll reserve judgment on a protest, but I absolutely agree that more openness on Hi-Rez's part is a must as development continues. If you look at the dev tracker, almost every post is just addressing bugs. It's been this way for months. Even massive issues (100% inheritance) are lucky to get a single post dismissing the idea.

Air strikes, machine guns, inheritance, jetpack behavior, energy regen, screen cracking. I'm sure there are a lot more, but these tend to have large majorities who want change. 100% inheritance was shut down because "internal testers didn't like it" (paraphrased). That was back in beta. Are all of these issues just going to be ignored forever?

_________________
100% inheritance is something the game needs.
Jetpacks need to behave more like jetpacks, at all speeds.

Thu May 03, 2012 10:32 am

GrapingTime

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:49 pm
Posts: 3

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

Thu May 03, 2012 10:35 am

LordOpeth

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:01 pm
Posts: 643

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

While I agree with your points and what you said but staging a protest over a game that is freee to play seems rather absurd.

The game appears to be still evolving. I disagree that it should have been put into a released state but if the goal is to bring people to the game the so be it. It appears that the the majority of players of T:A do not contribute to these forums so I can see why that a lot of the design choices are not being made, but only to the "Vets" that have the issues..

I still enjoy playing the game. Its the closest f*** thing I got to a modern day tribes and I wholely support it. I hope it becomes successful that we may see modding and other Tribes sequels with the hopes that one day we get that Tribes game us "vets" want.

I have issues with the posts day in and day out that are becoming rather redundant. To constantly discuss the same sit over and over is counter productive. My issues is not with the participants but with the lack of things that will not change so people can either support the game or move on. Also I have an issue with them constantly adding to the game without balancing whats already there. Dont get me started on the prices of skins, something that is purely cosmetic.

When HR annoucned this I was happy. Granted I am still bothered by some of the choices that has made it to the build of today I still support HR and will delightfully give them my money when the game becomes more complete.

_________________
T1 - MrBungle
T2 - (ZOC) MrBungle

Why does allot here expcept dieng in big KABOOM glory but dont give honnor to the silent laser thro your head in air HS your dead ? -uFr49

Thu May 03, 2012 10:38 am

mousedisc

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am
Posts: 531

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

I'd settle for a "the following threads have been queued for release 1.xxxx" thread every once in a while.

_________________
ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O
RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS

Thu May 03, 2012 10:46 am

Elysiume

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 1058

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

I'd settle for a dev that posted in threads that were specific changes. I don't expect devs to post in every weapon suggestion deployable suggestion or whatever thread, but there are some more targeted threads that could use responses.

We have had dozens (hundreds?) of pages about removing airstrikes, and all we got was +500cr to Tactical Strikes.

We have had massive amount of discussion about blanket nerfing automatics to properly fit them into their role as finishers, but have no gotten any response.

We have had large agreement in making Quick Draw standard, but having heard a peep in either way.

We have had huge and repeated threads requesting a coherent, consistent, and logical physics model, but they've been ignored.

I'm not even going to touch on 100% inheritance, because at least that got a response (as short and unsatisfying as it may have been). This forum wants the game to be as good as it can be. I want the game to be as good as it can be. And from what I can tell, Hi-Rez mostly ignores the forums altogether.

_________________
100% inheritance is something the game needs.
Jetpacks need to behave more like jetpacks, at all speeds.

Thu May 03, 2012 10:55 am

Ixiterra

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:09 am
Posts: 336

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

LordOpeth wrote:

While I agree with your points and what you said but staging a protest over a game that is freee to play seems rather absurd.

I'm not protesting the game, I'm protesting the lack of feedback we get from the developers. If the game is what it is and the developers like it that way, then so be it. But I want to know that this is what they want and this is how it's going to be. I don't want to be forever led by the carrot in hoping that this will become a game more true to its predecessors.

Quote:

so I can see why that a lot of the design choices are not being made, but only to the "Vets" that have the issues..

As an anecdote, I had a level 10 or so constantly calling me a "phag" in a CnH yesterday because I was mowing him down in a couple seconds with the TCN4 every time.

Quote:

My issues is not with the participants but with the lack of things that will not change so people can either support the game or move on.

And my issue is that we cannot let anything die when the developers won't tell is what is or isn't set in stone. If someone complains about the same issue for the 100th time, it would be nice if we could simply link them to the post that says "this is how it is and it isn't changing."

Quote:

When HR annoucned this I was happy. Granted I am still bothered by some of the choices that has made it to the build of today I still support HR and will delightfully give them my money when the game becomes more complete.

I'd give them more money in a heartbeat for automatic weapon balance and 72kph/chasing adjustment. But there has been almost no balance compared to content, and no direction for us to see. Again, I'm getting tired of being led by the hope of something better. At least if HR says "deal with it" I can deal with it in whatever way I want. But they haven't even given us that.

Thu May 03, 2012 10:56 am

mousedisc

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am
Posts: 531

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

You can't have devs posting in every thread because one people saw that a certain thread had a dev posting in it, you would have a million other people jump into the thread and yell about changes they want too.

I'm fine with some sort of after the fact notification.

Also, imo I could care less about the dev, I want the guy who is charge of scheduling the devs time aka who has patch approval. I would hope that guy has all the inputs he needs (pubbing community/competitive community etc) before assigning a dev to the task.

I would be surprised if devs just randomly read a thread and go "sounds like a good idea" lol.

_________________
ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O
RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS

Thu May 03, 2012 11:19 am

mousedisc

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am
Posts: 531

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

I do completely agree we need more communication from hirez as to whether or not our ideas are getting in.

_________________
ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O
RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS

Thu May 03, 2012 11:20 am

DemoEvolved

Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:28 am
Posts: 2031

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

I think your specific examples were catastrophically bad. Tech turrets blocking unassisted cappers is probably the worst argument you could make for getting a dev response.

Also, the request to define tight roles for every class might be a short view. I think its very likely every class will recieve equipment options to diversify their roles over time, its just too big to define which exceptions to this goal right now. Very likely there will be a means for Sentinels to attempt to cap in lieu of base d and shutting down flag runners post grab.

It would be nice to get more dev posts and guidance, but the forums are really brutal in the extreme vs any dev post with solid statements, its not worth an extended fight when they can just make actual game content instead.

Thu May 03, 2012 11:47 am

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Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street