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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...
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caaok Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm Posts: 1110	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... SFJake wrote: Since this is a F2P game with locked classes (not to mention benefits a LOT from some upgrades), you really can't ask ANYONE to change classes, period. You absolutely can. The three starting classes are versatile enough to at least make a half-assed attempt at whatever position your team needs filled. A basic Juggernaut on the stand (or shelling the enemy stand) is far more useful to your team than your super-1337 ninja fully upgraded Inf deathmatching in the enemy generator room. Hell, you could o-snipe deployables and the HoF with a Pathfinder's Light Spinfusor and probably be more useful to your team. _________________ What we lose with hitscan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY
Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:33 pm

Headless97 Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:25 am Posts: 53	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Frostiken wrote: Styel wrote: Whats the problem? That a guy knows how to cap? That he knows how to gain speed? The problem is that behavior like that is going to kill this game. Do you seriously think people are going to get off on constantly losing because of the pubstar Pathfinders that are now commonplace in almost every round? Do you really think the 0/0 Pathfinder is really helping anyone's enjoyment? I honestly don't even see CTF as a team gamemode anymore. 99% of the game is decided by only two or three players. This is compared to, say, Tribes 2 where flags took serious effort to get to and extract from the enemy base, where speeds of that magnitude were basically impossible due to drag and friction, and maps, vehicles, weapons, and classes were designed to make flag caps rare. It's almost to the point where your CTF rounds either end in landslide victory because the token pubstar is on your team, or they end in landslide failure because he ended up on the other. It's amazing how little any of the so-called "Tribes Vets" actually remember of how old CTF games played. From what I recall it was fairly common for rounds to end due to timer and be settled on the number of flag grabs (awarded single points). So, you're saying that CTF would be better if people couldn't capture the flag. Right... He's obviously a great pathfinder. Reaching those speeds takes practice and skill. The fact that he didn't lose much speed when grabbing the flag is equally commendable. He's not ruining the game; he's one of the few playing it right. He didn't need to kill or even assist. His teammates (Jugs/Raiders/Sents) probably cleared the flagstand to make his run easier. Given his apparent skill, he probably had the flag captured in under 30 seconds. Defense has access to radar (to see where enemies are coming from) base turrets, force shields, mines, claymores, Heavy on Flag, light turrets, pathfinders to chase, miniguns for incoming enemies, rockets for airborne enemies, defensive snipers, soldiers to guard the perimeter from mortars, tanks with big guns, shrikes to chase and even ram(!), and grav cycles to chase. If your defense was doing its job, he would have had a much harder time. The real issue is that players are rewarded for disco parties in the generator room and not for playing the game properly. Finally, this is not Tribes 2. Stop trying to make it. I'm not attacking you, though my tone is irritated. HiRez's effort should be to make bad players better and encourage better play rather than nerf or berate skilled players.
Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:54 pm

VashTHT Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:28 pm Posts: 1104	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... poiumty wrote: VashTHT wrote: A great number of TF2 maps are close quarters, short ranged, and the characters have easy to shoot heads. My point was that compared to Tribes, headshots are extremely easy in TF2 and can shut-down even the best medic-heavy combo. The problem I mentioned is simple: A great pathfinder + fractals on the flag stand OR juggernaut firing MIRVS can shut down an entire game. People should be rewarded for teamwork, however, the fact it only takes two people to escape with a flag untouched is the problem this game has. There's just no way to counter EXCEPT for SENTINEL. Offense in Tribes is ridiculously favored, compared to Defense. Doombringer? Really? Oh I can throw a fractal up there and HE IS GONE. I can launch 2 MIRVS and HE IS GONE. Get the trend here? The only map that does much to combat this problem is Sunstar. By severely limiting the entry to the flag when the generator is up, it actually makes defense a viable tactic. But even then, 3 fractals in that small flag area and a pathfinder, and you've got yourself a flag. This game boils down to who has the best Pathfinder and who has the best Sentinel. That isn't a very fun game. TF2 maps are diverse, and if you think getting a headshot on a (good) medic is easier than shooting a (good) pathfinder that you can see coming, you're dead wrong. They both need the same amount of practice. PTH can be shut down, and so can JUGs. You're arguing that a DMB can't hold off a PTH+JUG combo by himself. Well no s***, it's because he shouldn't. I'd like to see the idiot DMB that stands RIGHT THERE through 2 mortar shots. Or one that sees a fractal and doesn't move out of the way. When the fractal's gone, I'll usually go right back to the flag stand. Point is, yes some classes are better suited to winning the game than others. That's the nature of an objective-based shooter. But that can be overcome with good teamwork and organization. There are turrets, mines, proximity grenades, forcefields, chasers and perimeter defense classes. A combination of a few of these can easily shut down an offense that isn't coordinated enough. But you're obviously not going to see these things as much in pubs, because pubs are disorganized by their very nature. And the maps sometimes don't permit for good defense (Drydock, Crossfire). But on maps like Temple Ruins, Sunstar or Raindance I find going DMB is usually the factor that at least lets us prevent a 5 minute game most of the time. Killing a good medic in TF2 is still far easier than killing a Pathfinder going 350MPH. In the time it takes for the DMB/ALL DEPLOYABLES to be destroyed and displaced by 3 fractals and/or MIRV shots, a good capper can easily and unchallenged cap. It is this simple, easily coordinated attack that completely shuts down any Defense. As I've said before, the only class that has any chance of stopping it is the Sentinel, and the skill wall for that class is quite high considering what I hear every game I play where people just can't play it well. Either all the levels need to be reworked to be more like Sunstar, (and even that needs to be reworked somewhat), or the classes need to be altered. 2 Good players should not be able to shutdown an entire game of 16-20 people. _________________ AsuraPhoenix wrote: blackwhiskers wrote: regarding boosting - sometimes nitron jumps indeed do squat, but no dice 8 out of 10 times? dude, you're bad, then. learn to throw nitrons properly behind you, not beneath you. No, i'm not bad. Some people can just recreate bugs easier than others. No offense, I just thought this was hilarious.
Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:57 pm

seffarox Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:14 am Posts: 53	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... because getting the flag is so cool nobody uses other classes I played ctf 5 times only and it always ended quick with everyone trying to get the flagg and no one deffing -i have no doombringer, otherwise i would deff- _________________
Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:59 pm

VashTHT Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:28 pm Posts: 1104	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Headless97 wrote: Frostiken wrote: Styel wrote: Whats the problem? That a guy knows how to cap? That he knows how to gain speed? The problem is that behavior like that is going to kill this game. Do you seriously think people are going to get off on constantly losing because of the pubstar Pathfinders that are now commonplace in almost every round? Do you really think the 0/0 Pathfinder is really helping anyone's enjoyment? I honestly don't even see CTF as a team gamemode anymore. 99% of the game is decided by only two or three players. This is compared to, say, Tribes 2 where flags took serious effort to get to and extract from the enemy base, where speeds of that magnitude were basically impossible due to drag and friction, and maps, vehicles, weapons, and classes were designed to make flag caps rare. It's almost to the point where your CTF rounds either end in landslide victory because the token pubstar is on your team, or they end in landslide failure because he ended up on the other. It's amazing how little any of the so-called "Tribes Vets" actually remember of how old CTF games played. From what I recall it was fairly common for rounds to end due to timer and be settled on the number of flag grabs (awarded single points). So, you're saying that CTF would be better if people couldn't capture the flag. Right... He's obviously a great pathfinder. Reaching those speeds takes practice and skill. The fact that he didn't lose much speed when grabbing the flag is equally commendable. He's not ruining the game; he's one of the few playing it right. He didn't need to kill or even assist. His teammates (Jugs/Raiders/Sents) probably cleared the flagstand to make his run easier. Given his apparent skill, he probably had the flag captured in under 30 seconds. Defense has access to radar (to see where enemies are coming from) base turrets, force shields, mines, claymores, Heavy on Flag, light turrets, pathfinders to chase, miniguns for incoming enemies, rockets for airborne enemies, defensive snipers, soldiers to guard the perimeter from mortars, tanks with big guns, shrikes to chase and even ram(!), and grav cycles to chase. If your defense was doing its job, he would have had a much harder time. The real issue is that players are rewarded for disco parties in the generator room and not for playing the game properly. Finally, this is not Tribes 2. Stop trying to make it. I'm not attacking you, though my tone is irritated. HiRez's effort should be to make bad players better and encourage better play rather than nerf or berate skilled players. The only Defensive asset you listed that has any chance of stopping a good Pathfinder and a Fractal storm/MIRV launch is the SENTINEL. THIS is why the game is completely unbalanced. HiRez's effort should be balancing this game. _________________ AsuraPhoenix wrote: blackwhiskers wrote: regarding boosting - sometimes nitron jumps indeed do squat, but no dice 8 out of 10 times? dude, you're bad, then. learn to throw nitrons properly behind you, not beneath you. No, i'm not bad. Some people can just recreate bugs easier than others. No offense, I just thought this was hilarious.
Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:59 pm

ukkeli Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:45 am Posts: 215	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... True, thats why i stopped playing ctf and play capture and hold. Expecially reach perk makes defending even more useless against high cappers as they dont even have to touch the flag. :/ I hate that primary objective is the easiest thing to do. It would be same as if in diablo2, final boss diablo would be easiest thing to kill in that game.
Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:10 pm

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4808 Location: NA East	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... caaok wrote: SFJake wrote: Since this is a F2P game with locked classes (not to mention benefits a LOT from some upgrades), you really can't ask ANYONE to change classes, period. You absolutely can. The three starting classes are versatile enough to at least make a half-assed attempt at whatever position your team needs filled. ...and you can expand on that all day, but lets just apply it to what I said. 1. Chaser - PTH: You start with him. 2. Capper - PTH: You start with him. 3. HoF - JUG: You start with him. If someone simply maxed these classes out before even buying any other ones, and basically role checked like I described earlier, pubs would be much more tolerable. Then all you need is 3 perks. Reach, Egocentric, and Superheavy. LMG and LAR are the only needed weapons that aren't stock to effectively play these roles. Can we really expect new players to understand these CTF basics when Tribes CTF isn't basic? The scoring system doesn't even encourage you to play correctly. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:07 am

KnockKnockJoke Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:13 am Posts: 129	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... caaok wrote: SFJake wrote: Since this is a F2P game with locked classes (not to mention benefits a LOT from some upgrades), you really can't ask ANYONE to change classes, period. You absolutely can. The three starting classes are versatile enough to at least make a half-assed attempt at whatever position your team needs filled. A basic Juggernaut on the stand (or shelling the enemy stand) is far more useful to your team than your super-1337 ninja fully upgraded Inf deathmatching in the enemy generator room. Hell, you could o-snipe deployables and the HoF with a Pathfinder's Light Spinfusor and probably be more useful to your team. Problem being that absoluteltly nobody cares to defend as the game does not incentivize defense but promotes camping the enemy generator. I played HoF on a regular basis but I stopped because there is no use in it when every incoming pathfinder can kill you when incoming because there is absolutely no backup. Or he just uses the easy mode: strikes. The game simply encourages team-unfriendly behaviour and that is just plain stupid. There have been so many threads about how to fix this, but again, Hi-Rez doesn't care.
Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:45 am

poiumty Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:07 pm Posts: 221	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... VashTHT wrote: Killing a good medic in TF2 is still far easier than killing a Pathfinder going 350MPH. In the time it takes for the DMB/ALL DEPLOYABLES to be destroyed and displaced by 3 fractals and/or MIRV shots, a good capper can easily and unchallenged cap. It is this simple, easily coordinated attack that completely shuts down any Defense. As I've said before, the only class that has any chance of stopping it is the Sentinel, and the skill wall for that class is quite high considering what I hear every game I play where people just can't play it well. Either all the levels need to be reworked to be more like Sunstar, (and even that needs to be reworked somewhat), or the classes need to be altered. 2 Good players should not be able to shutdown an entire game of 16-20 people. Doesn't matter how fast he goes. He's moving in a predictable line. There's not much else to say here. I don't know what games you're usually playing, but the concept of an impenetrable defense is working fine here. Yesterday I played on Crossfire, a map which I consider to be impossible to defend, and with a DMB and a few technicians as well as me (raider) on defense, no one could ever destroy neither the generator nor capture the flag for more than 2 seconds. Regardless how many juggernauts and brutes were bombarding us from range. So disagree with me all you like, my experience says otherwise.
Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:14 am

jimmyv81 Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:13 am Posts: 4	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... I've got no problem with them taking the flag at ridiculous speeds. The issue is they can solo clear out all the deployable defenses by sitting 500 yards away on top of a hill spinfusor sniping. Once that's cleared they then start their run unhindered. IMO the light spinfusor range needs to be severely reduced.
Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:26 am

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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

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caaok

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 1110

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

SFJake wrote:

Since this is a F2P game with locked classes (not to mention benefits a LOT from some upgrades), you really can't ask ANYONE to change classes, period.

You absolutely can. The three starting classes are versatile enough to at least make a half-assed attempt at whatever position your team needs filled. A basic Juggernaut on the stand (or shelling the enemy stand) is far more useful to your team than your super-1337 ninja fully upgraded Inf deathmatching in the enemy generator room. Hell, you could o-snipe deployables and the HoF with a Pathfinder's Light Spinfusor and probably be more useful to your team.

_________________
What we lose with hitscan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:33 pm

Headless97

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:25 am
Posts: 53

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Frostiken wrote:

Styel wrote:

Whats the problem? That a guy knows how to cap? That he knows how to gain speed?

The problem is that behavior like that is going to kill this game.

Do you seriously think people are going to get off on constantly losing because of the pubstar Pathfinders that are now commonplace in almost every round?

Do you really think the 0/0 Pathfinder is really helping anyone's enjoyment? I honestly don't even see CTF as a team gamemode anymore. 99% of the game is decided by only two or three players. This is compared to, say, Tribes 2 where flags took serious effort to get to and extract from the enemy base, where speeds of that magnitude were basically impossible due to drag and friction, and maps, vehicles, weapons, and classes were designed to make flag caps rare.

It's almost to the point where your CTF rounds either end in landslide victory because the token pubstar is on your team, or they end in landslide failure because he ended up on the other.

It's amazing how little any of the so-called "Tribes Vets" actually remember of how old CTF games played. From what I recall it was fairly common for rounds to end due to timer and be settled on the number of flag grabs (awarded single points).

So, you're saying that CTF would be better if people couldn't capture the flag. Right...

He's obviously a great pathfinder. Reaching those speeds takes practice and skill. The fact that he didn't lose much speed when grabbing the flag is equally commendable. He's not ruining the game; he's one of the few playing it right. He didn't need to kill or even assist. His teammates (Jugs/Raiders/Sents) probably cleared the flagstand to make his run easier. Given his apparent skill, he probably had the flag captured in under 30 seconds.

Defense has access to radar (to see where enemies are coming from) base turrets, force shields, mines, claymores, Heavy on Flag, light turrets, pathfinders to chase, miniguns for incoming enemies, rockets for airborne enemies, defensive snipers, soldiers to guard the perimeter from mortars, tanks with big guns, shrikes to chase and even ram(!), and grav cycles to chase. If your defense was doing its job, he would have had a much harder time.

The real issue is that players are rewarded for disco parties in the generator room and not for playing the game properly.

Finally, this is not Tribes 2. Stop trying to make it. I'm not attacking you, though my tone is irritated. HiRez's effort should be to make bad players better and encourage better play rather than nerf or berate skilled players.

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:54 pm

VashTHT

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:28 pm
Posts: 1104

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

poiumty wrote:

VashTHT wrote:

A great number of TF2 maps are close quarters, short ranged, and the characters have easy to shoot heads. My point was that compared to Tribes, headshots are extremely easy in TF2 and can shut-down even the best medic-heavy combo.

The problem I mentioned is simple:

A great pathfinder + fractals on the flag stand OR juggernaut firing MIRVS can shut down an entire game.

People should be rewarded for teamwork, however, the fact it only takes two people to escape with a flag untouched is the problem this game has. There's just no way to counter EXCEPT for SENTINEL. Offense in Tribes is ridiculously favored, compared to Defense.

Doombringer? Really? Oh I can throw a fractal up there and HE IS GONE. I can launch 2 MIRVS and HE IS GONE. Get the trend here?

The only map that does much to combat this problem is Sunstar. By severely limiting the entry to the flag when the generator is up, it actually makes defense a viable tactic. But even then, 3 fractals in that small flag area and a pathfinder, and you've got yourself a flag.

This game boils down to who has the best Pathfinder and who has the best Sentinel. That isn't a very fun game.

TF2 maps are diverse, and if you think getting a headshot on a (good) medic is easier than shooting a (good) pathfinder that you can see coming, you're dead wrong. They both need the same amount of practice.

PTH can be shut down, and so can JUGs. You're arguing that a DMB can't hold off a PTH+JUG combo by himself. Well no s***, it's because he shouldn't.

I'd like to see the idiot DMB that stands RIGHT THERE through 2 mortar shots. Or one that sees a fractal and doesn't move out of the way. When the fractal's gone, I'll usually go right back to the flag stand.

Point is, yes some classes are better suited to winning the game than others. That's the nature of an objective-based shooter. But that can be overcome with good teamwork and organization. There are turrets, mines, proximity grenades, forcefields, chasers and perimeter defense classes. A combination of a few of these can easily shut down an offense that isn't coordinated enough.

But you're obviously not going to see these things as much in pubs, because pubs are disorganized by their very nature. And the maps sometimes don't permit for good defense (Drydock, Crossfire). But on maps like Temple Ruins, Sunstar or Raindance I find going DMB is usually the factor that at least lets us prevent a 5 minute game most of the time.

Killing a good medic in TF2 is still far easier than killing a Pathfinder going 350MPH.

In the time it takes for the DMB/ALL DEPLOYABLES to be destroyed and displaced by 3 fractals and/or MIRV shots, a good capper can easily and unchallenged cap.

It is this simple, easily coordinated attack that completely shuts down any Defense. As I've said before, the only class that has any chance of stopping it is the Sentinel, and the skill wall for that class is quite high considering what I hear every game I play where people just can't play it well.

Either all the levels need to be reworked to be more like Sunstar, (and even that needs to be reworked somewhat), or the classes need to be altered. 2 Good players should not be able to shutdown an entire game of 16-20 people.

_________________

AsuraPhoenix wrote:

blackwhiskers wrote:

regarding boosting - sometimes nitron jumps indeed do squat, but no dice 8 out of 10 times? dude, you're bad, then. learn to throw nitrons properly behind you, not beneath you.

No, i'm not bad. Some people can just recreate bugs easier than others.

No offense, I just thought this was hilarious.

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:57 pm

seffarox

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:14 am
Posts: 53

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

because getting the flag is so cool nobody uses other classes
I played ctf 5 times only and it always ended quick
with everyone trying to get the flagg and no one deffing
-i have no doombringer, otherwise i would deff-

_________________

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:59 pm

VashTHT

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:28 pm
Posts: 1104

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Headless97 wrote:

Frostiken wrote:

Styel wrote:

Whats the problem? That a guy knows how to cap? That he knows how to gain speed?

The only Defensive asset you listed that has any chance of stopping a good Pathfinder and a Fractal storm/MIRV launch is the SENTINEL.

THIS is why the game is completely unbalanced.

HiRez's effort should be balancing this game.

_________________

AsuraPhoenix wrote:

blackwhiskers wrote:

regarding boosting - sometimes nitron jumps indeed do squat, but no dice 8 out of 10 times? dude, you're bad, then. learn to throw nitrons properly behind you, not beneath you.

No, i'm not bad. Some people can just recreate bugs easier than others.

No offense, I just thought this was hilarious.

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:59 pm

ukkeli

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:45 am
Posts: 215

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

True, thats why i stopped playing ctf and play capture and hold. Expecially reach perk makes defending even more useless against high cappers as they dont even have to touch the flag. :/

I hate that primary objective is the easiest thing to do. It would be same as if in diablo2, final boss diablo would be easiest thing to kill in that game.

Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:10 pm

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4808
Location: NA East

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

caaok wrote:

SFJake wrote:

Since this is a F2P game with locked classes (not to mention benefits a LOT from some upgrades), you really can't ask ANYONE to change classes, period.

You absolutely can. The three starting classes are versatile enough to at least make a half-assed attempt at whatever position your team needs filled.

...and you can expand on that all day, but lets just apply it to what I said.

1. Chaser - PTH: You start with him.
2. Capper - PTH: You start with him.
3. HoF - JUG: You start with him.

If someone simply maxed these classes out before even buying any other ones, and basically role checked like I described earlier, pubs would be much more tolerable. Then all you need is 3 perks. Reach, Egocentric, and Superheavy. LMG and LAR are the only needed weapons that aren't stock to effectively play these roles.

Can we really expect new players to understand these CTF basics when Tribes CTF isn't basic? The scoring system doesn't even encourage you to play correctly.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:07 am

KnockKnockJoke

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:13 am
Posts: 129

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

caaok wrote:

SFJake wrote:

Since this is a F2P game with locked classes (not to mention benefits a LOT from some upgrades), you really can't ask ANYONE to change classes, period.

Problem being that absoluteltly nobody cares to defend as the game does not incentivize defense but promotes camping the enemy generator. I played HoF on a regular basis but I stopped because there is no use in it when every incoming pathfinder can kill you when incoming because there is absolutely no backup. Or he just uses the easy mode: strikes.

The game simply encourages team-unfriendly behaviour and that is just plain stupid. There have been so many threads about how to fix this, but again, Hi-Rez doesn't care.

Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:45 am

poiumty

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:07 pm
Posts: 221

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

VashTHT wrote:

Doesn't matter how fast he goes. He's moving in a predictable line.

There's not much else to say here. I don't know what games you're usually playing, but the concept of an impenetrable defense is working fine here. Yesterday I played on Crossfire, a map which I consider to be impossible to defend, and with a DMB and a few technicians as well as me (raider) on defense, no one could ever destroy neither the generator nor capture the flag for more than 2 seconds. Regardless how many juggernauts and brutes were bombarding us from range.

So disagree with me all you like, my experience says otherwise.

Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:14 am

jimmyv81

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:13 am
Posts: 4

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

I've got no problem with them taking the flag at ridiculous speeds.

The issue is they can solo clear out all the deployable defenses by sitting 500 yards away on top of a hill spinfusor sniping. Once that's cleared they then start their run unhindered.

IMO the light spinfusor range needs to be severely reduced.

Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:26 am

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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...