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How to fix chasing and nerf punting with *ONE* perk.
Author	Message
Pinepool Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:36 am Posts: 185	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. EvilKoala wrote: Tramadolol wrote: No. I don't like being punished for doing my job. Fix discjumping already... that's all. The problem is if disc jumping were more effective, it'd just make for faster cappers with the regen as it is. ^ what he said. imo this is genius _________________ I Support FRACTAL MIRV LAUNCHER 100%
Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:38 am

ZProtoss Alpha Tester Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm Posts: 427	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. poiumty wrote: Problem with this is that a perk, and perks in general, aren't exactly made to have trade-offs. It does break the existing precedent by having a direct trade off within the perk itself. However, there's no reason why a new precedent can't be set in where you have more powerful perks that come at a cost of being specialized (via a downside). It's a stylistic concern rather than a straight gameplay concern really.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:40 am

Pinepool Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:36 am Posts: 185	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. ZProtoss wrote: mimelim wrote: Terrible idea, fixing core problems of the game with perks is taking the hi-rez road to 'fixing'. Seriously, no. Replace the hp regen system with something else and buff discjumps. Has been said many many times. -1 Do you want to fix a problem with an idea that actually has a reasonable chance of happening? Or would you prefer to continue complaining that entire core game systems are broken, and ask for massive revamps that will never occur. There's no doubt that there are other solutions that could fix the chasing issue. However almost all of those solutions involve sweeping game and system changes that would take months of testing to actually get to an even semi-workable state. I am specifically targetting this solution to the system that's already in place, and therefore attempting to get a fix to the problem that can actually happen soon. There will always be someone who doesn't like "new" _________________ I Support FRACTAL MIRV LAUNCHER 100%
Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:42 am

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. ZProtoss wrote: Secondary Perk: Lightweight Effects: Increases impulse received by explosive damage by 1.5-2x (needs testing for exact) - This perk disables health regeneration. I would have thought it would make more sense to make Lightweight slightly similar to Heavyweight... Lightweight -10% Mass, -50 HP, Collision Weakness Upgrade 1: -5% Mass Upgrade 2: -5% Mass Upgrade 3: +20% Force from self damage *Collision Weakness: Colliding with enemy players and Force Fields deals (additional) damage to you based on velocity (the damage would be about 25% as strong as Super Heavy, stacking with Super Heavy, and enemy Forcefields would deal 25% more damage than they normally would) _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much! Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:53 am

mimelim Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:31 am Posts: 111	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. Pinepool wrote: ZProtoss wrote: mimelim wrote: Terrible idea, fixing core problems of the game with perks is taking the hi-rez road to 'fixing'. Seriously, no. Replace the hp regen system with something else and buff discjumps. Has been said many many times. -1 Do you want to fix a problem with an idea that actually has a reasonable chance of happening? Or would you prefer to continue complaining that entire core game systems are broken, and ask for massive revamps that will never occur. There's no doubt that there are other solutions that could fix the chasing issue. However almost all of those solutions involve sweeping game and system changes that would take months of testing to actually get to an even semi-workable state. I am specifically targetting this solution to the system that's already in place, and therefore attempting to get a fix to the problem that can actually happen soon. There will always be someone who doesn't like "new" If I didn't like 'the new' i wouldn't still be playing would I? This game delves to deep in to specialisations causing enormous rulesets which are arbitrary and easily broken. Rage was supposed to fix chasing and this ONE perk solution is, in my opinion zP, not much different trading this and that to come up with some kind of wobbly solution. I'm aware that some things might never be changed, but an alternate hp regeneration system has always been on the list since the day Bart openend up the competitive forum. It's fine if you guys want to fall in to the Hi-Rez mindset of things ignoring and settling for something less, do your thing.. I won't settle for a lesser solution. _________________ -3- - Team Heartbreakerz - #heartbreakerz on irc.quakenet - also checkout: twitter.com/Hindsightz - youtube.com/hindsighttribes
Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:54 am

ZProtoss Alpha Tester Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm Posts: 427	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. DibbzTheLoner wrote: ZProtoss wrote: Secondary Perk: Lightweight Effects: Increases impulse received by explosive damage by 1.5-2x (needs testing for exact) - This perk disables health regeneration. I would have thought it would make more sense to make Lightweight slightly similar to Heavyweight... -10% Mass, -50 HP, colliding with enemy players and Force Fields deals (additional) damage based on velocity (the damage would be about 25% as strong as Super Heavy, stacking with Super Heavy, and enemy Forcefields would deal 25% more damage than they normally would) Upgrade 1: -5% Mass Upgrade 2: -5% Mass Upgrade 3: +20% Force from self damage Here's the problem with this. Reducing mass has a slew of other effects besides more impulse. It would require more testing - though might be workable. The other problem is that there's no health regen penalty mentioned here. -50 HP would not deter people from using this as a primary capping perk (or perk in general). The health regen penalty allows to to craft something thats very powerful, but uniquely suited to chasers only.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:56 am

rezilve Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:39 pm Posts: 23	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. You can see by the creation of 'Rage' perk that Hirez arent against such an idea, and this certainly sounds like a decent version of Rage. I just wonder if individual chasers should have the right to hunt down a capper with ease - surely its a team effort to get back your flag and chaining shots + sniper seems to be effective enough without having LD beating the capper back to his own base.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:57 am

Tramadolol Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:47 am Posts: 610	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. Bandaids over bandaids over bandaids. Hirez simply needs to pull their collective heads out of their a s s e s and fix their fcking game already. Enough with those fcking bandaid fixes. Enough.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:57 am

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. ZProtoss wrote: Here's the problem with this. Reducing mass has a slew of other effects besides more impulse. It would require more testing - though might be workable. The other problem is that there's no health regen penalty mentioned here. -50 HP would not deter people from using this as a primary capping perk (or perk in general). The health regen penalty allows to to craft something thats very powerful, but uniquely suited to chasers only. I'm not intending my proposition as a "chaser only perk" , I'm very well aware of how mass works. It would work well with both chasing and capping, but with capping being hindered by collision damage and -50 HP. Here, I prettied it up DibbzTheLoner wrote: Lightweight -10% Mass, -50 HP, Collision Weakness Upgrade 1: -5% Mass Upgrade 2: -5% Mass Upgrade 3: +20% Force from self damage *Collision Weakness: Colliding with enemy players and Force Fields deals (additional) damage to you based on velocity (the damage would be about 25% as strong as Super Heavy, stacking with Super Heavy, and enemy Forcefields would deal 25% more damage than they normally would) The end result of this is: +44% Velocity change from self-damage. +20% Velocity change from enemy damage. +20% Velocity from jetpacks, jumping and Boost pack. -50 HP All enemies you run into act like they have a weak form of Super Heavy. Force Fields are 25% more damaging. ANY class could make use of this, it's most useful for cappers/chasers but Heavies might also consider using it to improve their mobility, since -50 HP doesn't affect them much and they rarely reach the speeds at which Collion Weakness would be significant. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much! Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:59 am

ZProtoss Alpha Tester Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm Posts: 427	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. mimelim wrote: If I didn't like 'the new' i wouldn't still be playing would I? This game delves to deep in to specialisations causing enormous rulesets which are arbitrary and easily broken. Rage was supposed to fix chasing and this ONE perk solution is, in my opinion zP, not much different trading this and that to come up with some kind of wobbly solution. I'm aware that some things might never be changed, but an alternate hp regeneration system has always been on the list since the day Bart openend up the competitive forum. It's fine if you guys want to fall in to the Hi-Rez mindset of things ignoring and settling for something less, do your thing.. I won't settle for a lesser solution. Rage was borne out of designer misunderstanding for why chasing is weak. It was thought that somehow the extra energy would allow people to get faster speed. The perk in the OP of this thread addresses chasing far more directly than rage ever did. As far as everything else goes, I hope you realize you're spiting yourself with the attitude you have here. It's one thing to ask for the world on changes - we all have our ideas on the best way of fixing certain problems with the game. But asking purely for the world and ignoring that there are intermediate changes that can drastically help the game we currently play (while still pushing for big changes) is foolish. The perk in the OP is not designed to specifically replace bigger system changes that could be made down the line. It is designed to help something that is a pressing issue now and do so in a way that's actually capable of being implemented.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:00 am

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How to fix chasing and nerf punting with *ONE* perk.

Author

Message

Pinepool

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:36 am
Posts: 185

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

EvilKoala wrote:

Tramadolol wrote:

No.
I don't like being punished for doing my job.
Fix discjumping already... that's all.

The problem is if disc jumping were more effective, it'd just make for faster cappers with the regen as it is.

^ what he said.

imo this is genius

_________________
I Support FRACTAL MIRV LAUNCHER 100%

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:38 am

ZProtoss

Alpha Tester

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 427

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

poiumty wrote:

Problem with this is that a perk, and perks in general, aren't exactly made to have trade-offs.

It does break the existing precedent by having a direct trade off within the perk itself. However, there's no reason why a new precedent can't be set in where you have more powerful perks that come at a cost of being specialized (via a downside).

It's a stylistic concern rather than a straight gameplay concern really.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:40 am

Pinepool

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:36 am
Posts: 185

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

ZProtoss wrote:

mimelim wrote:

Terrible idea, fixing core problems of the game with perks is taking the hi-rez road to 'fixing'. Seriously, no.

Replace the hp regen system with something else and buff discjumps. Has been said many many times.

-1

Do you want to fix a problem with an idea that actually has a reasonable chance of happening? Or would you prefer to continue complaining that entire core game systems are broken, and ask for massive revamps that will never occur.

There's no doubt that there are other solutions that could fix the chasing issue. However almost all of those solutions involve sweeping game and system changes that would take months of testing to actually get to an even semi-workable state.

I am specifically targetting this solution to the system that's already in place, and therefore attempting to get a fix to the problem that can actually happen soon.

There will always be someone who doesn't like "new"

_________________
I Support FRACTAL MIRV LAUNCHER 100%

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:42 am

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

ZProtoss wrote:

Secondary Perk: Lightweight

Effects: Increases impulse received by explosive damage by 1.5-2x (needs testing for exact) - This perk disables health regeneration.

I would have thought it would make more sense to make Lightweight slightly similar to Heavyweight...

Lightweight
-10% Mass, -50 HP, Collision Weakness
Upgrade 1: -5% Mass
Upgrade 2: -5% Mass
Upgrade 3: +20% Force from self damage

*Collision Weakness: Colliding with enemy players and Force Fields deals (additional) damage to you based on velocity (the damage would be about 25% as strong as Super Heavy, stacking with Super Heavy, and enemy Forcefields would deal 25% more damage than they normally would)

_________________
This signature is green. I like the colour green.
Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green.
Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!

Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:53 am

mimelim

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:31 am
Posts: 111

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

Pinepool wrote:

ZProtoss wrote:

mimelim wrote:

There will always be someone who doesn't like "new"

If I didn't like 'the new' i wouldn't still be playing would I? This game delves to deep in to specialisations causing enormous rulesets which are arbitrary and easily broken. Rage was supposed to fix chasing and this *ONE* perk solution is, in my opinion zP, not much different trading this and that to come up with some kind of wobbly solution.

I'm aware that some things might never be changed, but an alternate hp regeneration system has always been on the list since the day Bart openend up the competitive forum. It's fine if you guys want to fall in to the Hi-Rez mindset of things ignoring and settling for something less, do your thing.. I won't settle for a lesser solution.

_________________
-3- - Team Heartbreakerz - #heartbreakerz on irc.quakenet - also checkout: twitter.com/Hindsightz - youtube.com/hindsighttribes

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:54 am

ZProtoss

Alpha Tester

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 427

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

DibbzTheLoner wrote:

ZProtoss wrote:

Secondary Perk: Lightweight

Effects: Increases impulse received by explosive damage by 1.5-2x (needs testing for exact) - This perk disables health regeneration.

I would have thought it would make more sense to make Lightweight slightly similar to Heavyweight...

-10% Mass, -50 HP, colliding with enemy players and Force Fields deals (additional) damage based on velocity (the damage would be about 25% as strong as Super Heavy, stacking with Super Heavy, and enemy Forcefields would deal 25% more damage than they normally would)
Upgrade 1: -5% Mass
Upgrade 2: -5% Mass
Upgrade 3: +20% Force from self damage

Here's the problem with this. Reducing mass has a slew of other effects besides more impulse. It would require more testing - though might be workable.

The other problem is that there's no health regen penalty mentioned here. -50 HP would not deter people from using this as a primary capping perk (or perk in general). The health regen penalty allows to to craft something thats very powerful, but uniquely suited to chasers only.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:56 am

rezilve

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:39 pm
Posts: 23

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

You can see by the creation of 'Rage' perk that Hirez arent against such an idea, and this certainly sounds like a decent version of Rage.

I just wonder if individual chasers should have the right to hunt down a capper with ease - surely its a team effort to get back your flag and chaining shots + sniper seems to be effective enough without having LD beating the capper back to his own base.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:57 am

Tramadolol

Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:47 am
Posts: 610

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

Bandaids over bandaids over bandaids.

Hirez simply needs to pull their collective heads out of their a s s e s and fix their f*cking game already. Enough with those f*cking bandaid fixes. Enough.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:57 am

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

ZProtoss wrote:

I'm not intending my proposition as a "chaser only perk" , I'm very well aware of how mass works. It would work well with both chasing and capping, but with capping being hindered by collision damage and -50 HP.

Here, I prettied it up

DibbzTheLoner wrote:

Lightweight
-10% Mass, -50 HP, Collision Weakness
Upgrade 1: -5% Mass
Upgrade 2: -5% Mass
Upgrade 3: +20% Force from self damage

*Collision Weakness: Colliding with enemy players and Force Fields deals (additional) damage to you based on velocity (the damage would be about 25% as strong as Super Heavy, stacking with Super Heavy, and enemy Forcefields would deal 25% more damage than they normally would)

The end result of this is:

+44% Velocity change from self-damage.
+20% Velocity change from enemy damage.
+20% Velocity from jetpacks, jumping and Boost pack.
-50 HP
All enemies you run into act like they have a weak form of Super Heavy.
Force Fields are 25% more damaging.

ANY class could make use of this, it's most useful for cappers/chasers but Heavies might also consider using it to improve their mobility, since -50 HP doesn't affect them much and they rarely reach the speeds at which Collion Weakness would be significant.

Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:12 am, edited 3 times in total.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:59 am

ZProtoss

Alpha Tester

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 427

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

mimelim wrote:

Rage was borne out of designer misunderstanding for why chasing is weak. It was thought that somehow the extra energy would allow people to get faster speed. The perk in the OP of this thread addresses chasing far more directly than rage ever did.

As far as everything else goes, I hope you realize you're spiting yourself with the attitude you have here. It's one thing to ask for the world on changes - we all have our ideas on the best way of fixing certain problems with the game. But asking purely for the world and ignoring that there are intermediate changes that can drastically help the game we currently play (while still pushing for big changes) is foolish.

The perk in the OP is not designed to specifically replace bigger system changes that could be made down the line. It is designed to help something that is a pressing issue now and do so in a way that's actually capable of being implemented.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:00 am

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How to fix chasing and nerf punting with ONE perk.