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why new releases are OP
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Rox360 Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:25 pm Posts: 357	Re: why new releases are OP Soratsin wrote: Rox360 wrote: Why would they intentionally design a weapon that looks like it's not working as intended? That isn't relevant. Point is, either they never tested it or it is working as intended. Obviously they tested it, we have Hirez employees commenting on a video showing it's use. Hence.... Oh come on, how is that not relevant? It's just as relevant as your line of questioning. Okay, I'll answer yours with an actual answer; Maybe they didn't know how ludicrously huge the hitbox is because they don't actually have any internal testing. Maybe a last minute tweak ended up somehow influencing the update in ways that wasn't intended and that they maybe don't even know of yet. Maybe the designers are completely incompetent and had no idea how their concept would play out in actual gameplay and they thought that messing with hitboxes to subtly influence the player experience, like how bullet hell shooters have tiny hitboxes for the player ship, is a perfectly fine thing to do in their FPS. You claim that the projectile graphic being half the size it looks like it should be is working as intended, but you have no proof of that. It's supposed to have a large projectile. It does have a large projectile. That's all the information we have. You can't just extrapolate endlessly from that and wave the rest off as being irrelevant. I'm going to continue claiming that the Plasma Gun is not working as intended, because if it is working as intended, then they have no reason to change it, and the d*** thing has to change.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:29 pm

delayedreflex Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:24 pm Posts: 401	Re: why new releases are OP Rox360 wrote: Soratsin wrote: Rox360 wrote: Why would they intentionally design a weapon that looks like it's not working as intended? That isn't relevant. Point is, either they never tested it or it is working as intended. Obviously they tested it, we have Hirez employees commenting on a video showing it's use. Hence.... Oh come on, how is that not relevant? It's just as relevant as your line of questioning. Okay, I'll answer yours with an actual answer; Maybe they didn't know how ludicrously huge the hitbox is because they don't actually have any internal testing. Maybe a last minute tweak ended up somehow influencing the update in ways that wasn't intended and that they maybe don't even know of yet. Maybe the designers are completely incompetent and had no idea how their concept would play out in actual gameplay and they thought that messing with hitboxes to subtly influence the player experience, like how bullet hell shooters have tiny hitboxes for the player ship, is a perfectly fine thing to do in their FPS. You claim that the projectile graphic being half the size it looks like it should be is working as intended, but you have no proof of that. It's supposed to have a large projectile. It does have a large projectile. That's all the information we have. You can't just extrapolate endlessly from that and wave the rest off as being irrelevant. I'm going to continue claiming that the Plasma Gun is not working as intended, because if it is working as intended, then they have no reason to change it, and the d*** thing has to change. So you are suggesting that HiRez is incompetent. Others suggest HiRez intentionally made this OP to boost sales. Neither option makes them look particularly good. That pretty much explains their silence on the matter.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:37 pm

Rox360 Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:25 pm Posts: 357	Re: why new releases are OP delayedreflex wrote: So you are suggesting that HiRez is incompetent. Others suggest HiRez intentionally made this OP to boost sales. Neither option makes them look particularly good. That pretty much explains their silence on the matter. Yes, actually. See, here's the thing. There were ways to make the Plasma Gun blatantly overpowered without also making it objectively broken. Just increasing the visual projectile to match the size of the hitbox would've been enough. Or get rid of whatever hitbox trickery is going on and just make it... work the same as all other weapons, but bigger. It would still be just as overpowered, but it wouldn't look completely busted. Hell, I'd argue that would probably make it sell even more, because skeptics like me would be convinced that it is, in fact, working as intended and that it's okay to buy now because they're obviously not going to "fix" it next patch because of how clearly broken it is. But right now, it's totally a broken piece of crap. You can miss someone by a foot and the darn thing explodes in the air above their head and does full damage. And you get an accolade for it. That's not just overpowered, it's broken. Like, from a technical point of view. Games don't work like that. Visual feedback, and.. and hitboxes and intuitive interfacing and all that jazz all speak against doing something like this on purpose. So if they did do it on purpose, they're idiots who don't know how to make a d*** game! How they got this far, then, I have absolutely no idea, but it seems just as likely a scenario as the alternative, to me. I mean, this stuff is important. No, it's not just important, it's crucial. How fun a game is to play depends entirely on how distinct and intuitive its feedback and interface are. Projectiles going where they're aimed, shots hitting when they look like they hit, all those things are extremely important. It doesn't take much for an entire game to fall if all those things aren't spot on, all the time. Sometimes a player can't even put their finger on why a game isn't fun, when it turns out to be something like inconsistent feedback or behavior. It can be extremely subtle and still ruin an entire experience. And here we have the new primary weapon supposedly based on doing all those things completely wrong? Even if it was an intentional tweak of the hitbox and they didn't want to mess with the visuals because they knew they'd tweak it back down soon enough, I have a hard time imagining anyone who knows anything about game design intentionally going in and breaking that whole thing. It's like... It's like a trust between the game and its player. A game tells you what it's going to do, and then it does it, and you feel like you understand it. Some games tell things a bit differently than others and they feel unintuitive at first, but once you learn the systems, everything in the same game plays by the same rules. It feels consistent, it's logical, it's not hindering your enjoyment of the game. But the Plasma Gun speaks in a completely different language than the rest of the game. It's like... ... No, I just don't know. Any way I try to twist this scenario, the only thing I can take away from it is that someone on Hi-Rez is so bad at their job that they should probably be fired. Or that it was an honest mistake that somehow slipped past testing and that maybe more people should be hired to make sure that doesn't happen again?? I don't know. At this point, I'm just overthinking things. I'll wait and see what happens.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:57 pm

MrLordcaptain Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm Posts: 654	Re: why new releases are OP I just hope HiRez is changing their update policy, wether it was greed or stupidity. They have proved during beta that they can listen to reasoned complaints. If the next update falls into this category as well they will lose a part of their playerbase. _________________ Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns
Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:08 pm

inofor Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:22 am Posts: 567	Re: why new releases are OP thesliver wrote: I wonder why HiRez hasn't made a comment when their forums are absolutely PLASTERED with topics such as these? They have a policy of generally not making official statements about balance. Bart said that they will answer the community with patch notes after examining what is causing rage, along with what their data shows.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:35 pm

Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: why new releases are OP inofor wrote: thesliver wrote: I wonder why HiRez hasn't made a comment when their forums are absolutely PLASTERED with topics such as these? They have a policy of generally not making official statements about balance. Bart said that they will answer the community with patch notes after examining what is causing rage, along with what their data shows. that's because when they tried talking with the community earlier in the dev cycle (alpha/beta), the community attacked HiRez employees and their families, including posting personal information on these forums and others. so thanks to those few fine examples of immaturity and stupidity, HiRez won't be talking to us. _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:41 pm

UltraSexInferno Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:57 pm Posts: 996	Re: why new releases are OP Wobberjockey wrote: inofor wrote: thesliver wrote: I wonder why HiRez hasn't made a comment when their forums are absolutely PLASTERED with topics such as these? They have a policy of generally not making official statements about balance. Bart said that they will answer the community with patch notes after examining what is causing rage, along with what their data shows. that's because when they tried talking with the community earlier in the dev cycle (alpha/beta), the community attacked HiRez employees and their families, including posting personal information on these forums and others. so thanks to those few fine examples of immaturity and stupidity, HiRez won't be talking to us. Really? if that is true then it is totally fair enough.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:42 pm

Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: why new releases are OP UltraSexInferno wrote: Wobberjockey wrote: that's because when they tried talking with the community earlier in the dev cycle (alpha/beta), the community attacked HiRez employees and their families, including posting personal information on these forums and others. so thanks to those few fine examples of immaturity and stupidity, HiRez won't be talking to us. Really? if that is true then it is totally fair enough. i really wish i made that up. _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:52 pm

WitchDoctorVega Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am Posts: 2482 Location: On the coast, NH Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..	Re: why new releases are OP Wobberjockey wrote: that's because when they tried talking with the community earlier in the dev cycle (alpha/beta), the community attacked HiRez employees and their families, including posting personal information on these forums and others. so thanks to those few fine examples of immaturity and stupidity, HiRez won't be talking to us. thats just f*** crazy. what rabbid mouth-breather would be that pathetic and stupid? _________________ CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!
Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:54 pm

Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: why new releases are OP WitchDoctorVega wrote: Wobberjockey wrote: that's because when they tried talking with the community earlier in the dev cycle (alpha/beta), the community attacked HiRez employees and their families, including posting personal information on these forums and others. so thanks to those few fine examples of immaturity and stupidity, HiRez won't be talking to us. thats just f*** crazy. what rabbid mouth-breather would be that pathetic and stupid? some people have told me tribal war, but that's hear-say. take it with a grain of salt. i hope i never find out... i have some issues with them as well that need...resolving. my money is on some 12-13 year old who thinks they know everything and has never had to compromise in a work environment though. _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:02 pm

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why new releases are OP

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Rox360

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:25 pm
Posts: 357

Re: why new releases are OP

Soratsin wrote:

Rox360 wrote:

Why would they intentionally design a weapon that looks like it's not working as intended?

That isn't relevant.

Point is, either they never tested it or it is working as intended.

Obviously they tested it, we have Hirez employees commenting on a video showing it's use.

Hence....

Oh come on, how is that not relevant? It's just as relevant as your line of questioning. Okay, I'll answer yours with an actual answer; Maybe they didn't know how ludicrously huge the hitbox is because they don't actually have any internal testing. Maybe a last minute tweak ended up somehow influencing the update in ways that wasn't intended and that they maybe don't even know of yet. Maybe the designers are completely incompetent and had no idea how their concept would play out in actual gameplay and they thought that messing with hitboxes to subtly influence the player experience, like how bullet hell shooters have tiny hitboxes for the player ship, is a perfectly fine thing to do in their FPS.

You claim that the projectile graphic being half the size it looks like it should be is working as intended, but you have no proof of that. It's supposed to have a large projectile. It does have a large projectile. That's all the information we have. You can't just extrapolate endlessly from that and wave the rest off as being irrelevant.

I'm going to continue claiming that the Plasma Gun is not working as intended, because if it is working as intended, then they have no reason to change it, and the d*** thing has to change.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:29 pm

delayedreflex

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:24 pm
Posts: 401

Re: why new releases are OP

Rox360 wrote:

Soratsin wrote:

Rox360 wrote:

Why would they intentionally design a weapon that looks like it's not working as intended?

That isn't relevant.

Point is, either they never tested it or it is working as intended.

Obviously they tested it, we have Hirez employees commenting on a video showing it's use.

Hence....

So you are suggesting that HiRez is incompetent. Others suggest HiRez intentionally made this OP to boost sales. Neither option makes them look particularly good. That pretty much explains their silence on the matter.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:37 pm

Rox360

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:25 pm
Posts: 357

Re: why new releases are OP

delayedreflex wrote:

Yes, actually.

See, here's the thing. There were ways to make the Plasma Gun blatantly overpowered without also making it objectively broken. Just increasing the visual projectile to match the size of the hitbox would've been enough. Or get rid of whatever hitbox trickery is going on and just make it... work the same as all other weapons, but bigger. It would still be just as overpowered, but it wouldn't look completely busted. Hell, I'd argue that would probably make it sell even more, because skeptics like me would be convinced that it is, in fact, working as intended and that it's okay to buy now because they're obviously not going to "fix" it next patch because of how clearly broken it is.

But right now, it's totally a broken piece of crap. You can miss someone by a foot and the darn thing explodes in the air above their head and does full damage. And you get an accolade for it. That's not just overpowered, it's broken. Like, from a technical point of view. Games don't work like that. Visual feedback, and.. and hitboxes and intuitive interfacing and all that jazz all speak against doing something like this on purpose. So if they did do it on purpose, they're idiots who don't know how to make a d*** game! How they got this far, then, I have absolutely no idea, but it seems just as likely a scenario as the alternative, to me.

I mean, this stuff is important. No, it's not just important, it's crucial. How fun a game is to play depends entirely on how distinct and intuitive its feedback and interface are. Projectiles going where they're aimed, shots hitting when they look like they hit, all those things are extremely important. It doesn't take much for an entire game to fall if all those things aren't spot on, all the time. Sometimes a player can't even put their finger on why a game isn't fun, when it turns out to be something like inconsistent feedback or behavior. It can be extremely subtle and still ruin an entire experience. And here we have the new primary weapon supposedly based on doing all those things completely wrong?

Even if it was an intentional tweak of the hitbox and they didn't want to mess with the visuals because they knew they'd tweak it back down soon enough, I have a hard time imagining anyone who knows anything about game design intentionally going in and breaking that whole thing. It's like... It's like a trust between the game and its player. A game tells you what it's going to do, and then it does it, and you feel like you understand it. Some games tell things a bit differently than others and they feel unintuitive at first, but once you learn the systems, everything in the same game plays by the same rules. It feels consistent, it's logical, it's not hindering your enjoyment of the game. But the Plasma Gun speaks in a completely different language than the rest of the game. It's like...

... No, I just don't know. Any way I try to twist this scenario, the only thing I can take away from it is that someone on Hi-Rez is so bad at their job that they should probably be fired. Or that it was an honest mistake that somehow slipped past testing and that maybe more people should be hired to make sure that doesn't happen again??

I don't know. At this point, I'm just overthinking things. I'll wait and see what happens.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:57 pm

MrLordcaptain

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm
Posts: 654

Re: why new releases are OP

I just hope HiRez is changing their update policy, wether it was greed or stupidity. They have proved during beta that they can listen to reasoned complaints.
If the next update falls into this category as well they will lose a part of their playerbase.

_________________
Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns

Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:08 pm

inofor

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:22 am
Posts: 567

Re: why new releases are OP

thesliver wrote:

I wonder why HiRez hasn't made a comment when their forums are absolutely PLASTERED with topics such as these?

They have a policy of generally not making official statements about balance. Bart said that they will answer the community with patch notes after examining what is causing rage, along with what their data shows.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:35 pm

Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: why new releases are OP

inofor wrote:

thesliver wrote:

I wonder why HiRez hasn't made a comment when their forums are absolutely PLASTERED with topics such as these?

that's because when they tried talking with the community earlier in the dev cycle (alpha/beta), the community attacked HiRez employees and their families, including posting personal information on these forums and others.

so thanks to those few fine examples of immaturity and stupidity, HiRez won't be talking to us.

_________________

original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:41 pm

UltraSexInferno

Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:57 pm
Posts: 996

Re: why new releases are OP

Wobberjockey wrote:

inofor wrote:

thesliver wrote:

I wonder why HiRez hasn't made a comment when their forums are absolutely PLASTERED with topics such as these?

Really? if that is true then it is totally fair enough.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:42 pm

Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: why new releases are OP

UltraSexInferno wrote:

Wobberjockey wrote:

Really? if that is true then it is totally fair enough.

i really wish i made that up.

_________________

original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:52 pm

WitchDoctorVega

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 2482
Location: On the coast, NH
Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..

Re: why new releases are OP

Wobberjockey wrote:

thats just f*** crazy. what rabbid mouth-breather would be that pathetic and stupid?

_________________
CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!

Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:54 pm

Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: why new releases are OP

WitchDoctorVega wrote:

Wobberjockey wrote:

thats just f*** crazy. what rabbid mouth-breather would be that pathetic and stupid?

some people have told me tribal war, but that's hear-say. take it with a grain of salt.

i hope i never find out... i have some issues with them as well that need...resolving.

my money is on some 12-13 year old who thinks they know everything and has never had to compromise in a work environment though.

_________________

original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:02 pm

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why new releases are OP