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The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.
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fac3nade Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:15 am Posts: 1145	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. it's the chasing, but that's been said again and again. if i actually score an optimal grab you cannot catch me. i don't care what route you run or how many nitron jumps you do. if i score an optimal grab you cannot catch me. the question is whether or not that's a good thing? it takes effort on my part, and on part of my team to enable that unstoppable grab assuming the enemy has even one adequate DB. so teamwork rewards an unstoppable grab. this is good. and if your teams offense is equally awesome then that awful stand off begins where it all comes down to which flag carrier falls off his routes first and allows chasers to kill him. and like the other guy said, this is still new.. in a year we'll be grabbing at 500+ on a regular and people will still be complaining xD solution? fix those awful physics and make dynamic maps. well, destructible terrain is pushing it to the point of not being fun but, a new version of drydock (tribes seasons?) every 2 months as has been the case thus far will keep us on our toes, and actually make the game way more attractive to me personally _________________
Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:35 am

goodgrimes Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:15 pm Posts: 2	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. I agree with the OP. You don't need to be a great Tribes player to figure out that the vast majority of public games are landslide victories. The most common reason is because of a good Pathfinder. It's up to Hi-Rez to decide whether or not that's the kind of game they want to have, but it's not the kind of game which will foster a large player-base. It's not about whether or not someone is good or bad, it's about the game itself. There's going to be good and bad players no matter what, but the goal I'd think for everyone would be to have as many tight games as possible. The way it's designed right now is 90% landslide victories.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:06 am

irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. goodgrimes wrote: I agree with the OP. You don't need to be a great Tribes player to figure out that the vast majority of public games are landslide victories. The most common reason is because of a good Pathfinder. It's up to Hi-Rez to decide whether or not that's the kind of game they want to have, but it's not the kind of game which will foster a large player-base. It's not about whether or not someone is good or bad, it's about the game itself. There's going to be good and bad players no matter what, but the goal I'd think for everyone would be to have as many tight games as possible. The way it's designed right now is 90% landslide victories. I disagree completely with both this and the OP. People think that Pathfinders have such a huge effect on the game because they're the ones who are actually doing the scoring. But this is completely myopic and discounts all the other enabling factors that allow this to happen.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:09 am

goodgrimes Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:15 pm Posts: 2	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. irimi wrote: I disagree completely with both this and the OP. People think that Pathfinders have such a huge effect on the game because they're the ones who are actually doing the scoring. But this is completely myopic and discounts all the other enabling factors that allow this to happen. That totally depends on if you think the Pathfinders are scoring so much because the team isn't doing enough. I'd argue that the team is being expected to do things to an unreasonable degree in the reality of a public game. The fact is that most games are landslides and it sucks.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:15 am

starlinvf Beta Tester Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:31 am Posts: 1478	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. goodgrimes wrote: I agree with the OP. You don't need to be a great Tribes player to figure out that the vast majority of public games are landslide victories. The most common reason is because of a good Pathfinder. It's up to Hi-Rez to decide whether or not that's the kind of game they want to have, but it's not the kind of game which will foster a large player-base. It's not about whether or not someone is good or bad, it's about the game itself. There's going to be good and bad players no matter what, but the goal I'd think for everyone would be to have as many tight games as possible. The way it's designed right now is 90% landslide victories. Its not specifically the path finder, its the broken physics and jetpack behavior that the Pathfinder is designed to work around thats the root of the problem. Both the thrust pack and impact nitron are designed to give you instant speed, but the returns diminish sharply past 80 and 120 KPH. Short term speed gain is the key to both chasing and interception, and none of the classes can reliably do that except for the PTH.... But adding insult to injury, not even another PTH has any hope of catching a capper moving over 200 sanics before they make it back to base. _________________ "Even if it is just a gimmick, you can bet it'll be a crowd pleaser to see a player's feet kick up in the air and initiate a top down attack."
Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:18 am

irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. goodgrimes wrote: irimi wrote: I disagree completely with both this and the OP. People think that Pathfinders have such a huge effect on the game because they're the ones who are actually doing the scoring. But this is completely myopic and discounts all the other enabling factors that allow this to happen. That totally depends on if you think the Pathfinders are scoring so much because the team isn't doing enough. I'd argue that the team is being expected to do things to an unreasonable degree in the reality of a public game. The fact is that most games are landslides and it sucks. If you're in a game that's won by a landslide, it's because of stacked teams, not pathfinders. But seriously though, it's like complaining that the quarterback or the receiver are overpowered positions in football because they're the ones who are most closely tied to the scoring. But you're completely ignoring and discounting the linemen who make it possible for the quarterback to set up a good pass and for the receiver to be in position to catch it.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:19 am

Pittyswains Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am Posts: 2120	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Chasing is broken in ascend for several reasons. But in all tribes games, if a capper gets out clean with a full head of steam, the defense has very little chance of catching him before he gets most of the way back to their base. What breaks chasing is health regen and disc jumping. The problem is you'd have to modify both in order to help chasing. 1st lets talk about disc jumping (also refers to any explosive weapon's knockback). It's f*** weak, let's just get it out there. I'm pretty sure most people would agree compared to all other iterations, disc jumping in TA is pathetic. This means that getting enough speed to effectively chase a capper is impossible unless: A. You're already going fast. or B. You're sitting on a large hill waiting for a capper to grab so that you have a nice slope to gain enough speed to keep up. Now, you may be saying to yourself "But cappers will just DJ more too, so it will be a buff to both!" True, and that's why DJing is linked to regen and why together in their current form, chasing is broken. So, my 2nd point is this. Regen should be disabled at speeds greater that 100km/h. This, along with greater disc impact, should fix chasing in my opinion. Defenders will be able to get a greater initial speed when beginning their chase, while cappers will cease to be able to DJ and nitro spam 10 seconds out from a cap, while hitting the stand with full HP moving at 300km/h. An added benefit is that chasers will not regen while chasing the capper, making escorts much more effective against chasers. Maybe if this turns out well, we can get rid of the retarded acceleration cap band aid on jets that try to reign in cappers. Which has failed miserably and simply gimp chasers now. Edit: On a side note I'd like to point out that I would kill in order to go back to repair kits. _________________ shayd wrote: Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun
Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:25 am

nsievers Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:33 pm Posts: 10	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. irimi wrote: But seriously though, it's like complaining that the quarterback or the receiver are overpowered positions in football because they're the ones who are most closely tied to the scoring. But you're completely ignoring and discounting the linemen who make it possible for the quarterback to set up a good pass and for the receiver to be in position to catch it. couldn't agree with this more
Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:30 am

Krobhar Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:59 am Posts: 3	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. I can't believe that no one has mentioned this. Why does the flag on every single CTF map have to be outside and have a completely unobstructed lane so that light users can zip in, grab it and zip out in .2 seconds? Could we not get a map which has the flag inside a building of sorts which required a bit of teamwork to get to?
Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:37 am

Pittyswains Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am Posts: 2120	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. nsievers wrote: irimi wrote: But seriously though, it's like complaining that the quarterback or the receiver are overpowered positions in football because they're the ones who are most closely tied to the scoring. But you're completely ignoring and discounting the linemen who make it possible for the quarterback to set up a good pass and for the receiver to be in position to catch it. couldn't agree with this more Except DB's and Safeties don't have 5lb ankle weights while giving the WR ten yards behind the line of scrimmage to get up to speed. _________________ shayd wrote: Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun
Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:38 am

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The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

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fac3nade

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:15 am
Posts: 1145

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

it's the chasing, but that's been said again and again.

if i actually score an optimal grab you cannot catch me. i don't care what route you run or how many nitron jumps you do. if i score an optimal grab you cannot catch me. the question is whether or not that's a good thing? it takes effort on my part, and on part of my team to enable that unstoppable grab assuming the enemy has even one adequate DB.

so teamwork rewards an unstoppable grab. this is good. and if your teams offense is equally awesome then that awful stand off begins where it all comes down to which flag carrier falls off his routes first and allows chasers to kill him.

and like the other guy said, this is still new.. in a year we'll be grabbing at 500+ on a regular and people will still be complaining xD solution?

fix those awful physics and make dynamic maps. well, destructible terrain is pushing it to the point of not being fun but, a new version of drydock (tribes seasons?) every 2 months as has been the case thus far will keep us on our toes, and actually make the game way more attractive to me personally

_________________

Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:35 am

goodgrimes

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:15 pm
Posts: 2

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

I agree with the OP.

You don't need to be a great Tribes player to figure out that the vast majority of public games are landslide victories. The most common reason is because of a good Pathfinder. It's up to Hi-Rez to decide whether or not that's the kind of game they want to have, but it's not the kind of game which will foster a large player-base. It's not about whether or not someone is good or bad, it's about the game itself. There's going to be good and bad players no matter what, but the goal I'd think for everyone would be to have as many tight games as possible. The way it's designed right now is 90% landslide victories.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:06 am

irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

goodgrimes wrote:

I disagree completely with both this and the OP. People think that Pathfinders have such a huge effect on the game because they're the ones who are actually doing the scoring. But this is completely myopic and discounts all the other enabling factors that allow this to happen.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:09 am

goodgrimes

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:15 pm
Posts: 2

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

irimi wrote:

That totally depends on if you think the Pathfinders are scoring so much because the team isn't doing enough. I'd argue that the team is being expected to do things to an unreasonable degree in the reality of a public game. The fact is that most games are landslides and it sucks.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:15 am

starlinvf

Beta Tester

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:31 am
Posts: 1478

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

goodgrimes wrote:

Its not specifically the path finder, its the broken physics and jetpack behavior that the Pathfinder is designed to work around thats the root of the problem. Both the thrust pack and impact nitron are designed to give you instant speed, but the returns diminish sharply past 80 and 120 KPH. Short term speed gain is the key to both chasing and interception, and none of the classes can reliably do that except for the PTH.... But adding insult to injury, not even another PTH has any hope of catching a capper moving over 200 sanics before they make it back to base.

_________________
"Even if it is just a gimmick, you can bet it'll be a crowd pleaser to see a player's feet kick up in the air and initiate a top down attack."

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:18 am

irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

goodgrimes wrote:

irimi wrote:

If you're in a game that's won by a landslide, it's because of stacked teams, not pathfinders.

But seriously though, it's like complaining that the quarterback or the receiver are overpowered positions in football because they're the ones who are most closely tied to the scoring. But you're completely ignoring and discounting the linemen who make it possible for the quarterback to set up a good pass and for the receiver to be in position to catch it.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:19 am

Pittyswains

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 2120

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Chasing is broken in ascend for several reasons. But in all tribes games, if a capper gets out clean with a full head of steam, the defense has very little chance of catching him before he gets most of the way back to their base.

What breaks chasing is health regen and disc jumping. The problem is you'd have to modify both in order to help chasing.

1st lets talk about disc jumping (also refers to any explosive weapon's knockback). It's f*** weak, let's just get it out there. I'm pretty sure most people would agree compared to all other iterations, disc jumping in TA is pathetic. This means that getting enough speed to effectively chase a capper is impossible unless: A. You're already going fast. or B. You're sitting on a large hill waiting for a capper to grab so that you have a nice slope to gain enough speed to keep up. Now, you may be saying to yourself "But cappers will just DJ more too, so it will be a buff to both!" True, and that's why DJing is linked to regen and why together in their current form, chasing is broken.

So, my 2nd point is this. Regen should be disabled at speeds greater that 100km/h. This, along with greater disc impact, should fix chasing in my opinion. Defenders will be able to get a greater initial speed when beginning their chase, while cappers will cease to be able to DJ and nitro spam 10 seconds out from a cap, while hitting the stand with full HP moving at 300km/h. An added benefit is that chasers will not regen while chasing the capper, making escorts much more effective against chasers.

Maybe if this turns out well, we can get rid of the retarded acceleration cap band aid on jets that try to reign in cappers. Which has failed miserably and simply gimp chasers now.

Edit: On a side note I'd like to point out that I would kill in order to go back to repair kits.

_________________

shayd wrote:

Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:25 am

nsievers

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:33 pm
Posts: 10

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

irimi wrote:

But seriously though, it's like complaining that the quarterback or the receiver are overpowered positions in football because they're the ones who are most closely tied to the scoring. But you're completely ignoring and discounting the linemen who make it possible for the quarterback to set up a good pass and for the receiver to be in position to catch it.

couldn't agree with this more

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:30 am

Krobhar

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:59 am
Posts: 3

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

I can't believe that no one has mentioned this. Why does the flag on every single CTF map have to be outside and have a completely unobstructed lane so that light users can zip in, grab it and zip out in .2 seconds? Could we not get a map which has the flag inside a building of sorts which required a bit of teamwork to get to?

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:37 am

Pittyswains

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 2120

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

nsievers wrote:

irimi wrote:

couldn't agree with this more

Except DB's and Safeties don't have 5lb ankle weights while giving the WR ten yards behind the line of scrimmage to get up to speed.

_________________

shayd wrote:

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:38 am

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The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.