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Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]
Author	Message
Makesha Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:28 pm Posts: 59	Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF] I'll be honest, 9 times out of 10 I just exit match when this map comes up. It's just not fun. It's not that I can't do routes or anything, but it's just not fun. I've learned to at least be neutral about Raindance and Sunstar, but Temple Ruins is just.. Not fun.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:43 pm

UniversalPie Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm Posts: 619 Location: GTA Ontario	Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF] Makesha wrote: I'll be honest, 9 times out of 10 I just exit match when this map comes up. It's just not fun. It's not that I can't do routes or anything, but it's just not fun. I've learned to at least be neutral about Raindance and Sunstar, but Temple Ruins is just.. Not fun. Used to do that for Sunstar... Always liked Temple, but now all the maps seem appealing to me. _________________
Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:02 pm

PlaysWithWolves Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:19 pm Posts: 33	Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF] From the latest patch notes: Quote: The flagstand on CTF Temple Ruins has been moved back to its original position.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:55 pm

Yutty Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:58 pm Posts: 563	Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF] PlaysWithWolves wrote: From the latest patch notes: Quote: The flagstand on CTF Temple Ruins has been moved back to its original position. best thing to ever happen to this map. Thanks hi rez _________________ Care to sponsor a gamer? https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&business=B98Q74J6ABRYL&lc=CA&item_name=Yutty%27s%20Dream%20Fund&item_number=sponsor&currency_code=USD&bn=PP%2dDonationsBF%3abtn_donateCC_LG%2egif%3aNonHosted
Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:37 am

FreaK367 Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm Posts: 587 Location: England Steam Gamer Name: FreaK	Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF] Beat me to it, just read the patch notes, thank you Hi-Rez!, more routes have opened up :3 Also, over the past week or two I have been playing Doombringer now and again, as a HoF, using the Heavy Bolt Launcher, Force Fields, Mines, Super Heavy etc... and on Temple Ruins it was my number one choice role since the flag changed location, every route cappers were taking was predictable and I was like a one man army. Some matches ending 5 - 0 to my team just because the enemy team couldn't grab the flag, not from a lack of trying though, with about 3 high speed attempts a minute or so. I had to worry about 3 directions, left right and front, which was too easy. No unusual angles were being used, I felt bad sometimes because I was making the cappers rage at me. This patch will change that though, for the good , more angles will be opened up for cappers, and the HoF will need to be on his toes, or atleast have some backup defense, I could HoF alone sometimes with success. Off-Topic-Ish: While playing HoF, it was really fun, I really enjoy defending, I'm always kept busy. So why do I come across so many 16 v 16 games where one or both teams have virtually no defense?, from the start it's just like a base switch for the teams, more people defend the generators than the flag, overall, people seem to rate defending quite low , which leads to loads of llama grabbing, quick games and just boring games where no team can keep their flag for more than 10 seconds. _________________ Desired: Bind VGS commands to keys. Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap) Large Automatic Nerfs Decent Plasma Gun Nerf Large Jackal Nerf
Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:07 am

Tesendence Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:29 am Posts: 1	Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF] frznvimes wrote: The lava in the bases looks more like a circulating roll of cloth painted to look like lava than actual liquid rock. It would be nice if it bubbled a bit or something. Base turrets behave VERY strangely on this map. You can put tech turrets anywhere, including the enemy generator room and flag stand. Suggestion for alternate flag location, one floor up. This makes it a bit more defensible and interesting. It also puts the flag defenders in a higher position from which they'll be able to gain a little more speed/height when they start chasing. From above: add a small roof to protect from strikes directly on the stand, but dosen't stop mortars from coming in from an angle. From the side: add 2 more pillars to make the opening gap slightly smaller so that it can be blocked by a force field, but still larger than the spacing between other pillars. By using pillars instead of a force field it means that the faster a capper comes in for a side-to-side the straighter their route will have to be, if they come in slower they might be able to maneuver between pillars. Make the bottom part below the stand a lava pool. Video showing what some simple routes would look like (I just kind of improvise, these aren't really planned out). Most notably they would force the grabber to actually travel through the air so that defenders would have a bit of warning and it prevents turrets from losing line of sight and not firing (turret locations would have to be changed). A back-to-front from above grab is possible, but very difficult (you have to go through just the right place) and suitably rewards the capper with cover on the approach. You can go under the stand for a back-to-front, but you would sacrifice speed/energy by going over the lava and then up the ramp. A front-to-back using the ramp will cost you a bit of energy to fly over the lava pit if you're not going fast enough and be a bit risky as you could get deflected into it. Basically, the idea is that there are various routes open, but each one has advantages and disadvantages, particularly depending on what the defenders are doing, the status of the generator, and how skilled you are at skiing. Suggestions for generator room changes Keep the general layout basically the same but add lots of large natural stone pillars going from the ceiling to the floor, as well as more/longer stalagmites/stalactites. This creates cover to maneuver around, a bit of a vantage point from standing on the catwalks versus standing at the bottom among the rocks, and makes hovering around high up difficult/risky/a place to hide for a second. Instead of having the generator on top of a platform, put it on the inside like a small bunker. This makes it so you can't just stand where ever you want and shoot at the generator, giving the defenders a couple main places to watch without bottle necking the attackers (as on the current Bella Omega). I very much approve of this Idea!
Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:16 am

ManandMachine Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:56 pm Posts: 633 Location: In a van down by the river.	Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF] SO you're promoting putting the flag and generator somewhere no one can ever get to it. Brilliant. Stretch the game out so you n00bs can XP farm. Another guy thinks this creates more routes; it only reduces them. LOL. If a variety of capping routes caused your bowels such distress, how do you not fill your britches every time Drydock or Katabatic come up in the rotation? _________________ I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.
Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:25 am

PlaysWithWolves Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:19 pm Posts: 33	Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF] FreaK367 wrote: While playing HoF, it was really fun, I really enjoy defending, I'm always kept busy. So why do I come across so many 16 v 16 games where one or both teams have virtually no defense? Part of it is because of the "gens don't matter" drumbeat put out there by some (which is only situationally true, IMHO). I think it also has to do with team makeup on most maps. On this map, give me a couple good techs and a chaser and I can usually come out as one of the top three scores -- as a DMB. Of course, I don't know if I'm playing it the best , since I frequently go to the inventory station and make sure all FFs and mines are up, and preferably me with spares (thus not always standing on the flag). I'm glad the flag is back to off-center. Sure, it's an express lane to the other base, but the capper has to run the gauntlet (or "thread the needle") to hit it perfectly -- and in the end, they often die from the two mines I've placed in their way after they've grabbed the flag. I actually don't care much for playing HOF, because of my style listed above (place FF & mines, rinse-repeat, rinse-repeat, etc.), but I find it really important on any map against all but the best cappers. Just the simple act of switching roles from O to D has changed many a'game.
Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:52 am

FreaK367 Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm Posts: 587 Location: England Steam Gamer Name: FreaK	Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF] That's the thing, I see more people going to the Gen to defend, than the flag, and when there is no flag defense but we are d*** good at keeping our Generator up, I tell the team to just forget the generator for now, especially when it's about 3 - 0 in 10 minutes. Flag comes first, then generator, a player defense is a hell of a lot more important than a deployable defense. Baring in mind I always join the unstacked/weaker team (from my initial analysis of the teams), and more often than not my team live up to the analysis. If we have a competent capper or two I will defend, but usually I need to go offense to give us a chance of winning since everyone seems adamant to attempt llama grabs and get destroyed. So I need to try and rely on the rest of my team, sometimes 15 other players, to defend and chase. Which is harder than it sounds when the enemy team has about 5 cappers that are grabbing at 200+ and we just have me. My team usually ends up as me capping + chasing, getting our only caps if we get any, about 5 Gen defenders, 4 llama grabbers, 2 gen offense and 4 people just messing around. I quote "I'm at the highest point on the map, join me!" and "Gen Party" from some of the people who are wasting a team slot. This is just general across all maps, although the "highest point" quote was from Temple Ruins. Most of it comes from the mass stacking that happens all of the time, I even get people acknowledging that they are stacking, and bragging about it. Really annoys me. In short though, Flag > Gen. And people need more incentive to play Defense. _________________ Desired: Bind VGS commands to keys. Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap) Large Automatic Nerfs Decent Plasma Gun Nerf Large Jackal Nerf
Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:36 am

ManandMachine Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:56 pm Posts: 633 Location: In a van down by the river.	Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF] Thank you for moving the flag back. You were right for putting it there in the first place! I can enjoy the map the way I did before. If you decide to do any more work with this map, I humbly suggest adding some color to it: blacks and reds, to help break up the brown a little. Perhaps some lava pools, as in the TDM map, Inferno. Also, look at the Oblivion realm in the Elder Scrolls: Oblivion for an example. Thanks again!!!! _________________ I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:29 am

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Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

Author

Message

Makesha

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:28 pm
Posts: 59

Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

I'll be honest, 9 times out of 10 I just exit match when this map comes up. It's just not fun. It's not that I can't do routes or anything, but it's just not fun. I've learned to at least be neutral about Raindance and Sunstar, but Temple Ruins is just.. Not fun.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:43 pm

UniversalPie

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 619
Location: GTA Ontario

Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

Makesha wrote:

Used to do that for Sunstar... Always liked Temple, but now all the maps seem appealing to me.

_________________

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:02 pm

PlaysWithWolves

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:19 pm
Posts: 33

Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

From the latest patch notes:

Quote:

The flagstand on CTF Temple Ruins has been moved back to its original position.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:55 pm

Yutty

Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:58 pm
Posts: 563

Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

PlaysWithWolves wrote:

From the latest patch notes:

Quote:

The flagstand on CTF Temple Ruins has been moved back to its original position.

best thing to ever happen to this map. Thanks hi rez

_________________
Care to sponsor a gamer?
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&business=B98Q74J6ABRYL&lc=CA&item_name=Yutty%27s%20Dream%20Fund&item_number=sponsor&currency_code=USD&bn=PP%2dDonationsBF%3abtn_donateCC_LG%2egif%3aNonHosted

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:37 am

FreaK367

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 587
Location: England
Steam Gamer Name: FreaK

Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

Beat me to it, just read the patch notes, thank you Hi-Rez!, more routes have opened up :3

Also, over the past week or two I have been playing Doombringer now and again, as a HoF, using the Heavy Bolt Launcher, Force Fields, Mines, Super Heavy etc... and on Temple Ruins it was my number one choice role since the flag changed location, every route cappers were taking was predictable and I was like a one man army. Some matches ending 5 - 0 to my team just because the enemy team couldn't grab the flag, not from a lack of trying though, with about 3 high speed attempts a minute or so.

I had to worry about 3 directions, left right and front, which was too easy. No unusual angles were being used, I felt bad sometimes because I was making the cappers rage at me.

This patch will change that though, for the good

, more angles will be opened up for cappers, and the HoF will need to be on his toes, or atleast have some backup defense, I could HoF alone sometimes with success.

Off-Topic-Ish:
While playing HoF, it was really fun, I really enjoy defending, I'm always kept busy. So why do I come across so many 16 v 16 games where one or both teams have virtually no defense?, from the start it's just like a base switch for the teams, more people defend the generators than the flag, overall, people seem to rate defending quite low

, which leads to loads of llama grabbing, quick games and just boring games where no team can keep their flag for more than 10 seconds.

_________________

Desired:
Bind VGS commands to keys.
Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap)
Large Automatic Nerfs
Decent Plasma Gun Nerf
Large Jackal Nerf

Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:07 am

Tesendence

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:29 am
Posts: 1

Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

frznvimes wrote:

The lava in the bases looks more like a circulating roll of cloth painted to look like lava than actual liquid rock. It would be nice if it bubbled a bit or something.
Base turrets behave VERY strangely on this map. You can put tech turrets anywhere, including the enemy generator room and flag stand.

Suggestion for alternate flag location, one floor up. This makes it a bit more defensible and interesting. It also puts the flag defenders in a higher position from which they'll be able to gain a little more speed/height when they start chasing.
From above: add a small roof to protect from strikes directly on the stand, but dosen't stop mortars from coming in from an angle.

From the side: add 2 more pillars to make the opening gap slightly smaller so that it can be blocked by a force field, but still larger than the spacing between other pillars. By using pillars instead of a force field it means that the faster a capper comes in for a side-to-side the straighter their route will have to be, if they come in slower they might be able to maneuver between pillars. Make the bottom part below the stand a lava pool.

Video showing what some simple routes would look like (I just kind of improvise, these aren't really planned out). Most notably they would force the grabber to actually travel through the air so that defenders would have a bit of warning and it prevents turrets from losing line of sight and not firing (turret locations would have to be changed). A back-to-front from above grab is possible, but very difficult (you have to go through just the right place) and suitably rewards the capper with cover on the approach. You can go under the stand for a back-to-front, but you would sacrifice speed/energy by going over the lava and then up the ramp. A front-to-back using the ramp will cost you a bit of energy to fly over the lava pit if you're not going fast enough and be a bit risky as you could get deflected into it.
Basically, the idea is that there are various routes open, but each one has advantages and disadvantages, particularly depending on what the defenders are doing, the status of the generator, and how skilled you are at skiing.

Suggestions for generator room changes
Keep the general layout basically the same but add lots of large natural stone pillars going from the ceiling to the floor, as well as more/longer stalagmites/stalactites. This creates cover to maneuver around, a bit of a vantage point from standing on the catwalks versus standing at the bottom among the rocks, and makes hovering around high up difficult/risky/a place to hide for a second.

Instead of having the generator on top of a platform, put it on the inside like a small bunker. This makes it so you can't just stand where ever you want and shoot at the generator, giving the defenders a couple main places to watch without bottle necking the attackers (as on the current Bella Omega).

I very much approve of this Idea!

Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:16 am

ManandMachine

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 633
Location: In a van down by the river.

Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

SO you're promoting putting the flag and generator somewhere no one can ever get to it. Brilliant. Stretch the game out so you n00bs can XP farm.

Another guy thinks this creates more routes; it only reduces them. LOL.

If a variety of capping routes caused your bowels such distress, how do you not fill your britches every time Drydock or Katabatic come up in the rotation?

_________________
I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:25 am

PlaysWithWolves

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:19 pm
Posts: 33

Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

FreaK367 wrote:

While playing HoF, it was really fun, I really enjoy defending, I'm always kept busy. So why do I come across so many 16 v 16 games where one or both teams have virtually no defense?

Part of it is because of the "gens don't matter" drumbeat put out there by some (which is only situationally true, IMHO).
I think it also has to do with team makeup on most maps. On this map, give me a couple good techs and a chaser and I can usually come out as one of the top three scores -- as a DMB. Of course, I don't know if I'm playing it the best , since I frequently go to the inventory station and make sure all FFs and mines are up, and preferably me with spares (thus not always standing on the flag).

I'm glad the flag is back to off-center. Sure, it's an express lane to the other base, but the capper has to run the gauntlet (or "thread the needle") to hit it perfectly -- and in the end, they often die from the two mines I've placed in their way after they've grabbed the flag.

I actually don't care much for playing HOF, because of my style listed above (place FF & mines, rinse-repeat, rinse-repeat, etc.), but I find it really important on any map against all but the best cappers. Just the simple act of switching roles from O to D has changed many a'game.

Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:52 am

FreaK367

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 587
Location: England
Steam Gamer Name: FreaK

Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

That's the thing, I see more people going to the Gen to defend, than the flag, and when there is no flag defense but we are d*** good at keeping our Generator up, I tell the team to just forget the generator for now, especially when it's about 3 - 0 in 10 minutes. Flag comes first, then generator, a player defense is a hell of a lot more important than a deployable defense.

Baring in mind I always join the unstacked/weaker team (from my initial analysis of the teams), and more often than not my team live up to the analysis.

If we have a competent capper or two I will defend, but usually I need to go offense to give us a chance of winning since everyone seems adamant to attempt llama grabs and get destroyed. So I need to try and rely on the rest of my team, sometimes 15 other players, to defend and chase. Which is harder than it sounds when the enemy team has about 5 cappers that are grabbing at 200+ and we just have me.

My team usually ends up as me capping + chasing, getting our only caps if we get any, about 5 Gen defenders, 4 llama grabbers, 2 gen offense and 4 people just messing around.

I quote "I'm at the highest point on the map, join me!" and "Gen Party" from some of the people who are wasting a team slot.

This is just general across all maps, although the "highest point" quote was from Temple Ruins. Most of it comes from the mass stacking that happens all of the time, I even get people acknowledging that they are stacking, and bragging about it. Really annoys me.

In short though, Flag > Gen. And people need more incentive to play Defense.

_________________

Desired:
Bind VGS commands to keys.
Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap)
Large Automatic Nerfs
Decent Plasma Gun Nerf
Large Jackal Nerf

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:36 am

ManandMachine

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 633
Location: In a van down by the river.

Re: Map feedback - Temple Ruins [CTF]

Thank you for moving the flag back. You were right for putting it there in the first place!

I can enjoy the map the way I did before.

If you decide to do any more work with this map, I humbly suggest adding some color to it: blacks and reds, to help break up the brown a little. Perhaps some lava pools, as in the TDM map, Inferno. Also, look at the Oblivion realm in the Elder Scrolls: Oblivion for an example.

Thanks again!!!!

_________________
I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:29 am