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Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?
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Pittyswains Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am Posts: 2120	Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players? SFJake wrote: irimi wrote: No, but my local store would certainly allow me to exchange the product I bought for something of equal value within a reasonable timeframe, provided that it's in the same condition as when I bought it. Online transaction have no rules in favor of the costumers, no laws protecting you to any serious level, and an army of fanboys in any games that attack their own interest by defending these things. Such is the digitial world. Standards all set by the companies instead of by the costumers. Standards are set by the customers. If idiots didn't buy into these standards, companies would never be able to profit off them, and thus would change their standards. It's only an illusion that companies are in control. If you don't like it, grow a backbone and don't buy it. If you do buy it, don't whine about what you got, especially if it's about something that the company was clear about. People will willingly bend over backwards while paying it forward in order to get something they want. So I don't really see online transactions or the amount of protection for buyers being changed in any way in the near future due to lack of people with backbones. _________________ shayd wrote: Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun
Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:14 am

irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players? SFJake wrote: irimi wrote: No, but my local store would certainly allow me to exchange the product I bought for something of equal value within a reasonable timeframe, provided that it's in the same condition as when I bought it. Online transaction have no rules in favor of the costumers, no laws protecting you to any serious level, and an army of fanboys in any games that attack their own interest by defending these things. Such is the digitial world. Standards all set by the companies instead of by the costumers. Indeed, and that's an interesting discussion in and of itself. But for the sake of clarification, I said what I said only for the sake of pointing out a broken analogy.
Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:38 am

delayedreflex Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:24 pm Posts: 401	Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players? irimi wrote: They're just following the standard model that everyone these days is using... where all gameplay items are accessible via playtime currency, and cosmetic stuff can only be bought by real money. Frankly, I think it's an idiotic model and that any company would be better off by allowing their customers to access everything with playtime currency. A reset/respec option would be absolutely lovely, but I highly doubt it's ever going to be implemented. Yet another one of those things that companies short-sightedly think would be detrimental to them. Xeriel wrote: I'm sure you don't go bitching at your local store about being forced to buy bread daily, clearly if you paid for it once you should be entitled for every consecutive loaf. No, but my local store would certainly allow me to exchange the product I bought for something of equal value within a reasonable timeframe, provided that it's in the same condition as when I bought it. And to be clear, I don't think bitching about it is necessarily justified. But some of these things would be absolutely great to do for the users/customers, and there's actually very little reason to not do them... the benefit/love you'll get from them will far outweigh whatever the perceived cost is of doing it. Many games have already moved away from the model of having players making relatively uninformed but permanent decisions. The same principle applies here too. Agreed. A full refund/reset at the end of the beta would have been highly appreciated by everyone, but obviously HiRez thought that they might lose out on some money in the short term as people chose not to re-buy stuff they wanted to try but turned out they didn't like. The thing is, all they're saving is that little bit of XP/gold that people spent during that time when you couldn't try out weapons in training mode, and lost a great opportunity for a popular gesture to the community. Chances are it is too late for them to do an XP/gold reset as it would set a precedence that they could do it during full release, causing people to angrily whine for resets anytime there is a balancing change made. Going from beta -> release was the perfect timing window to do a reset and they missed it. It would be unfortunate if T:A ends up being less successful due to choices like these by the sales/marketing team. The weapon pricing (in gold, at least) is another area where I think HiRez has missed the mark. In F2P games, impulse buys = big bucks - $8-10 guns is not in the impulse buy range. Perhaps when they have a wider range of unlockables they will lower weapon prices, but the best time to get your scheme right is at release, otherwise you might end up losing a lot of players without them having bought any weapons because they are too expensive. For the record, I think having gold-only cosmetic items is perfectly fine and should be completely expected - having better deals for spending gold vs. XP should also be be expected. Doesn't mean that it would be a bad thing for HiRez to help the customers who didn't expect this though.
Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:39 am

MrLordcaptain Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm Posts: 654	Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players? Xeriel wrote: You're not an "investor", you're a customer and you bought something and received it. I'm sure you don't go bitching at your local store about being forced to buy bread daily, clearly if you paid for it once you should be entitled for every consecutive loaf. ^This But I agree that a refund for Betatester would have been nice, its not that we would get our real money back, we could just relocate our investments. I love this game but HiRez business strategies are not the best. _________________ Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns
Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:12 am

irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players? MrLordcaptain wrote: Xeriel wrote: You're not an "investor", you're a customer and you bought something and received it. I'm sure you don't go bitching at your local store about being forced to buy bread daily, clearly if you paid for it once you should be entitled for every consecutive loaf. ^This But I agree that a refund for Betatester would have been nice, its not that we would get our real money back, we could just relocate our investments. I love this game but HiRez business strategies are not the best. Not sure why you quoted that guy, since his argument essentially boils down to something equivalent to, "you paid for X GP once, so you shouldn't be entitled to getting X GP over and over again". Which is not at all the same as providing an option to respec (exchange your purchased goods for something different of equal value).
Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:18 am

FreaK367 Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm Posts: 587 Location: England Steam Gamer Name: FreaK	Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players? It would be nice if Hi-Rez introduced a feature letting people fully reset all of their classes. I have so much wasted XP, must have over 600k XP plunged into classes and weapons I don't touch. Mistakes made from the Beta, and so many others do. It would be a paid feature though, maybe 250 gold or so for the first time, then more for future resets. It's desperately needed. _________________ Desired: Bind VGS commands to keys. Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap) Large Automatic Nerfs Decent Plasma Gun Nerf Large Jackal Nerf
Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:27 am

BlueByte Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:44 pm Posts: 14	Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players? No, it would not be possible to re-spec you gold/XP/Weapons. Then you could just re-spec everytime you want to change weapon or something. "Oh, I'm gonna use my Jackal this match." re-spec "There you go, I got back my gold from the gun and used them on the Jackal instead"
Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:37 am

irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players? BlueByte wrote: No, it would not be possible to re-spec you gold/XP/Weapons. Then you could just re-spec everytime you want to change weapon or something. "Oh, I'm gonna use my Jackal this match." re-spec "There you go, I got back my gold from the gun and used them on the Jackal instead" There's all sorts of limitations you can put in place to keep that from happening. A long cooldown period, a GP or XP cost, a combination of both...
Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:55 pm

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Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?

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Pittyswains

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 2120

Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?

SFJake wrote:

irimi wrote:

Online transaction have no rules in favor of the costumers, no laws protecting you to any serious level, and an army of fanboys in any games that attack their own interest by defending these things.

Such is the digitial world. Standards all set by the companies instead of by the costumers.

Standards are set by the customers. If idiots didn't buy into these standards, companies would never be able to profit off them, and thus would change their standards. It's only an illusion that companies are in control. If you don't like it, grow a backbone and don't buy it. If you do buy it, don't whine about what you got, especially if it's about something that the company was clear about.

People will willingly bend over backwards while paying it forward in order to get something they want. So I don't really see online transactions or the amount of protection for buyers being changed in any way in the near future due to lack of people with backbones.

_________________

shayd wrote:

Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:14 am

irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?

SFJake wrote:

irimi wrote:

Indeed, and that's an interesting discussion in and of itself.

But for the sake of clarification, I said what I said only for the sake of pointing out a broken analogy.

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:38 am

delayedreflex

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:24 pm
Posts: 401

Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?

irimi wrote:

They're just following the standard model that everyone these days is using... where all gameplay items are accessible via playtime currency, and cosmetic stuff can only be bought by real money.

Frankly, I think it's an idiotic model and that any company would be better off by allowing their customers to access everything with playtime currency.

A reset/respec option would be absolutely lovely, but I highly doubt it's ever going to be implemented. Yet another one of those things that companies short-sightedly think would be detrimental to them.

Xeriel wrote:

I'm sure you don't go bitching at your local store about being forced to buy bread daily, clearly if you paid for it once you should be entitled for every consecutive loaf.

No, but my local store would certainly allow me to exchange the product I bought for something of equal value within a reasonable timeframe, provided that it's in the same condition as when I bought it.

And to be clear, I don't think bitching about it is necessarily justified. But some of these things would be absolutely great to do for the users/customers, and there's actually very little reason to not do them... the benefit/love you'll get from them will far outweigh whatever the perceived cost is of doing it.

Many games have already moved away from the model of having players making relatively uninformed but permanent decisions. The same principle applies here too.

Agreed. A full refund/reset at the end of the beta would have been highly appreciated by everyone, but obviously HiRez thought that they might lose out on some money in the short term as people chose not to re-buy stuff they wanted to try but turned out they didn't like. The thing is, all they're saving is that little bit of XP/gold that people spent during that time when you couldn't try out weapons in training mode, and lost a great opportunity for a popular gesture to the community. Chances are it is too late for them to do an XP/gold reset as it would set a precedence that they could do it during full release, causing people to angrily whine for resets anytime there is a balancing change made. Going from beta -> release was the perfect timing window to do a reset and they missed it.

It would be unfortunate if T:A ends up being less successful due to choices like these by the sales/marketing team. The weapon pricing (in gold, at least) is another area where I think HiRez has missed the mark. In F2P games, impulse buys = big bucks - $8-10 guns is not in the impulse buy range. Perhaps when they have a wider range of unlockables they will lower weapon prices, but the best time to get your scheme right is at release, otherwise you might end up losing a lot of players without them having bought any weapons because they are too expensive.

For the record, I think having gold-only cosmetic items is perfectly fine and should be completely expected - having better deals for spending gold vs. XP should also be be expected. Doesn't mean that it would be a bad thing for HiRez to help the customers who didn't expect this though.

Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:39 am

MrLordcaptain

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm
Posts: 654

Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?

Xeriel wrote:

You're not an "investor", you're a customer and you bought something and received it.

I'm sure you don't go bitching at your local store about being forced to buy bread daily, clearly if you paid for it once you should be entitled for every consecutive loaf.

^This

But I agree that a refund for Betatester would have been nice, its not that we would get our real money back, we could just relocate our investments.
I love this game but HiRez business strategies are not the best.

_________________
Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns

Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:12 am

irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?

MrLordcaptain wrote:

Xeriel wrote:

Not sure why you quoted that guy, since his argument essentially boils down to something equivalent to, "you paid for X GP once, so you shouldn't be entitled to getting X GP over and over again". Which is not at all the same as providing an option to respec (exchange your purchased goods for something different of equal value).

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:18 am

FreaK367

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 587
Location: England
Steam Gamer Name: FreaK

Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?

It would be nice if Hi-Rez introduced a feature letting people fully reset all of their classes. I have so much wasted XP, must have over 600k XP plunged into classes and weapons I don't touch. Mistakes made from the Beta, and so many others do.

It would be a paid feature though, maybe 250 gold or so for the first time, then more for future resets. It's desperately needed.

_________________

Desired:
Bind VGS commands to keys.
Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap)
Large Automatic Nerfs
Decent Plasma Gun Nerf
Large Jackal Nerf

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:27 am

BlueByte

Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:44 pm
Posts: 14

Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?

No, it would not be possible to re-spec you gold/XP/Weapons.
Then you could just re-spec everytime you want to change weapon or something.
"Oh, I'm gonna use my Jackal this match." *re-spec* "There you go, I got back my gold from the gun and used them on the Jackal instead"

Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:37 am

irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?

BlueByte wrote:

There's all sorts of limitations you can put in place to keep that from happening. A long cooldown period, a GP or XP cost, a combination of both...

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:55 pm

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Is Hi-Rez trying to p*** off its paying players?