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The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.
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Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. What do 5/0 landslides, 4-minute rounds, and earning 200 XP have in common? Dedicated Pathfinders. You know, the pricks who end the game with 0 kills and just fly laps around the map grabbing the flag at 200+ kph making it totally useless to even try to chase them. The most fun I've had in this game were the 4/4 games that last well into overtime, that happen only once a month. You not only get tons of XP, but you actually play long enough to enjoy what's happening, rather than the game simply ending because one player on one team is good enough to fly routes and grab the flag at max speed. Because flag chasing is useless and dead, these kinds of games just make me feel powerless. People b** about llama grabbing but I'll be totally frank: I'd rather play a round full of llama grabbers and people who aren't good at running the flag, than with some 'pro' who only gives a s* about winning the round as fast as possible and forces me to spend more time enjoying hollow 5/0 victories on the map loading screen and scoreboard than I do shooting people with the spinfusor. The only time I've been able to employ completely effective flag defense against these people is when the server is full to the brim and we have enough people to cover the midfield, the base, the flag, and the surrounding area. When the game is 10/10 or less, defense tends to be more watered down and just makes it that much easier for a single player to run the game at his own pace. One Doombringer cannot defend Katabatic by himself. Christ, just one clearing tactical strike and it's game over... Last edited by Frostiken on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:39 pm

NKuga Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:55 pm Posts: 309	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Frostiken wrote: Because flag chasing is useless and dead So instead of curing the disease, we just cut off the entire arm to get rid of it? picardfacepalm.jpg
Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:41 pm

NiXXeD Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:02 am Posts: 657	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Have you tried things like mines and force fields and HoF and LD and shrike D? They all work to prevent cowboy capping.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:42 pm

Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. NiXXeD wrote: Have you tried things like mines and force fields and HoF and LD and shrike D? They all work to prevent cowboy capping. Edited my post. Try it on the less D-heavy maps (Katabatic, Drydock) with 20 players or less. You might as well just find another server because 5/0 victories and 0/5 losses don't get you anything no matter which side you're on. In all my time playing, the only time it ever feels like my team can adequately cover all the bases - flag defense, base defense, midfield, offense, heavy offense, etc. is on a full team. When teams are small, offense becomes disproportionately more powerful. I really don't see what these people actually get out of the game by running 5/0 pathfinder laps, unless they seriously just get off on being told that they're a winner.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:43 pm

DrEuthanasia Beta Tester Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm Posts: 1101	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Pathfinders are the go-to chasing class too, they just happen to be not nearly good enough at it. Of course, if you enjoy 35 minute games so much, you're welcome to main Sentinel, the class that really doesn't belong in this game. I can guarantee you won't see any flags leaving your base with a good enough Sentinel in the wings.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:47 pm

Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. DrEuthanasia wrote: Pathfinders are the go-to chasing class too, they just happen to be not nearly good enough at it. Of course, if you enjoy 35 minute games so much, you're welcome to main Sentinel, the class that really doesn't belong in this game. I can guarantee you won't see any flags leaving your base with a good enough Sentinel in the wings. Unfortunately I find Sentinel about as exciting as spreadsheets. Point. Click. Repeat. There are also way, way more people willing to bumrush the flag as Pathfinder then there are people willing to play Sentinel who are any good at it. By nearly a 20:1 margin by my estimate, given that I imagine the number of effective sentinels I've seen number barely in the upper teens.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:48 pm

DrEuthanasia Beta Tester Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm Posts: 1101	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Well, you can't expect to counter someone who is having no fun and only cares about winning without becoming the same kind of monster, now can you? That would just be unreasonable. In all seriousness, I do agree. One player cannot counter a good enough Pathfinder without playing Sentinel unless they're impossibly good at the game. The only other way to drag the game out is to take the enemy flag so that he's forced to rely on the rest of his team to help him win. Either he passes it to someone less qualified and trusts them not to get killed while he's away, or he waits for his team to take you down, which could take a very long time. Unfortunately, you're still the one who has to give up his freedom if you want to stop him.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:56 pm

Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. It's been mentioned before (only once, but I remember it) that this is most likely a result of frictionless skiing. Introducing air resistance and slight ground friction from skiing would / should / could slow down Pathfinders on flag running duties enough (who cannot really boost once they have the flag) that chasers could catch up to them. Making the Shrike go faster would help too. It's pretty sad that that thing can barely catch up with a light. I'm curious as to how 8v8 competition works. I honestly cannot see how a team of only 8 could possibly front a balanced force, and I highly suspect that these games are played with a disproportionally high emphasis on defense specifically because one good capper means game over, and very few, if any, players dedicated to base destruction. It's always been my understanding that imbalance is most easily identified when it takes a disproportionate number of assets to counter a given tactic... Last edited by Frostiken on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:00 pm

JoshuaWaller Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:50 am Posts: 264	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Did you think, perhaps... it would probably be more difficult for the pathfinder to cap if their flag isn't on their stand? It sounds like the problem is that you're playing games where only one team is focusing on flag play. In a CTF game, the primary focus should be on the flag. If you're winning or losing 5-0, the problem isn't the pathfinders, it's unbalanced teams. Unfortunately, in pubs, the majority of players do not focus on flag play. They're more concerned with base raping, or getting kills, or keeping their own generator running. Those are all secondary goals that should only be attempted if your flag offense and defense are going good. This does go to show, however, that there's definite room for a gametype that focuses more on the secondary aspects, removing the flag entirely. I'd love something where the game play revolves around more than the singular goal. Don't get me wrong, though, I love CTF too.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:04 pm

Tamburlaine Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:13 am Posts: 1859	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Even more'n general defence improvements (and doombringer-specific improvements), I would god d*** kill for better chasing. Better self-impulse from standstill, "flag drag", maybe the doombringer can get a new secondary that launchers pathfinders rather than rockets; I don't care. Chasing is fun to do, fun to have done to you, and fun to watch. And you know what another word for fun to watch is? ESPORTS. God Bless America. _________________ oh god where does this link go how did it get here I am not good with computer
Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:06 pm

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The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

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Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

What do 5/0 landslides, 4-minute rounds, and earning 200 XP have in common?

Dedicated Pathfinders. You know, the pricks who end the game with 0 kills and just fly laps around the map grabbing the flag at 200+ kph making it totally useless to even try to chase them.

The most fun I've had in this game were the 4/4 games that last well into overtime, that happen only once a month. You not only get tons of XP, but you actually play long enough to enjoy what's happening, rather than the game simply ending because one player on one team is good enough to fly routes and grab the flag at max speed.

Because flag chasing is useless and dead, these kinds of games just make me feel powerless. People b**** about llama grabbing but I'll be totally frank:

I'd rather play a round full of llama grabbers and people who aren't good at running the flag, than with some 'pro' who only gives a s*** about winning the round as fast as possible and forces me to spend more time enjoying hollow 5/0 victories on the map loading screen and scoreboard than I do shooting people with the spinfusor.

The only time I've been able to employ completely effective flag defense against these people is when the server is full to the brim and we have enough people to cover the midfield, the base, the flag, and the surrounding area. When the game is 10/10 or less, defense tends to be more watered down and just makes it that much easier for a single player to run the game at his own pace.

One Doombringer cannot defend Katabatic by himself. Christ, just one clearing tactical strike and it's game over...

Last edited by Frostiken on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:39 pm

NKuga

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:55 pm
Posts: 309

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Frostiken wrote:

Because flag chasing is useless and dead

So instead of curing the disease, we just cut off the entire arm to get rid of it?

picardfacepalm.jpg

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:41 pm

NiXXeD

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:02 am
Posts: 657

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Have you tried things like mines and force fields and HoF and LD and shrike D? They all work to prevent cowboy capping.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:42 pm

Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

NiXXeD wrote:

Have you tried things like mines and force fields and HoF and LD and shrike D? They all work to prevent cowboy capping.

Edited my post. Try it on the less D-heavy maps (Katabatic, Drydock) with 20 players or less. You might as well just find another server because 5/0 victories and 0/5 losses don't get you anything no matter which side you're on.

In all my time playing, the only time it ever feels like my team can adequately cover all the bases - flag defense, base defense, midfield, offense, heavy offense, etc. is on a full team. When teams are small, offense becomes disproportionately more powerful.

I really don't see what these people actually get out of the game by running 5/0 pathfinder laps, unless they seriously just get off on being told that they're a winner.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:43 pm

DrEuthanasia

Beta Tester

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 1101

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Pathfinders are the go-to chasing class too, they just happen to be not nearly good enough at it.

Of course, if you enjoy 35 minute games so much, you're welcome to main Sentinel, the class that really doesn't belong in this game. I can guarantee you won't see any flags leaving your base with a good enough Sentinel in the wings.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:47 pm

Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

DrEuthanasia wrote:

Unfortunately I find Sentinel about as exciting as spreadsheets.

Point.

Click.

Repeat.

There are also way, way more people willing to bumrush the flag as Pathfinder then there are people willing to play Sentinel who are any good at it. By nearly a 20:1 margin by my estimate, given that I imagine the number of effective sentinels I've seen number barely in the upper teens.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:48 pm

DrEuthanasia

Beta Tester

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 1101

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Well, you can't expect to counter someone who is having no fun and only cares about winning without becoming the same kind of monster, now can you? That would just be unreasonable.

In all seriousness, I do agree. One player cannot counter a good enough Pathfinder without playing Sentinel unless they're impossibly good at the game. The only other way to drag the game out is to take the enemy flag so that he's forced to rely on the rest of his team to help him win. Either he passes it to someone less qualified and trusts them not to get killed while he's away, or he waits for his team to take you down, which could take a very long time. Unfortunately, you're still the one who has to give up his freedom if you want to stop him.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:56 pm

Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

It's been mentioned before (only once, but I remember it) that this is most likely a result of frictionless skiing. Introducing air resistance and slight ground friction from skiing would / should / could slow down Pathfinders on flag running duties enough (who cannot really boost once they have the flag) that chasers could catch up to them.

Making the Shrike go faster would help too. It's pretty sad that that thing can barely catch up with a light.

I'm curious as to how 8v8 competition works. I honestly cannot see how a team of only 8 could possibly front a balanced force, and I highly suspect that these games are played with a disproportionally high emphasis on defense specifically because one good capper means game over, and very few, if any, players dedicated to base destruction.

It's always been my understanding that imbalance is most easily identified when it takes a disproportionate number of assets to counter a given tactic...

Last edited by Frostiken on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:00 pm

JoshuaWaller

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:50 am
Posts: 264

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Did you think, perhaps... it would probably be more difficult for the pathfinder to cap if their flag isn't on their stand? It sounds like the problem is that you're playing games where only one team is focusing on flag play.

In a CTF game, the primary focus should be on the flag. If you're winning or losing 5-0, the problem isn't the pathfinders, it's unbalanced teams. Unfortunately, in pubs, the majority of players do not focus on flag play. They're more concerned with base raping, or getting kills, or keeping their own generator running. Those are all secondary goals that should only be attempted if your flag offense and defense are going good.

This does go to show, however, that there's definite room for a gametype that focuses more on the secondary aspects, removing the flag entirely. I'd love something where the game play revolves around more than the singular goal. Don't get me wrong, though, I love CTF too.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:04 pm

Tamburlaine

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:13 am
Posts: 1859

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Even more'n general defence improvements (and doombringer-specific improvements), I would god d*** kill for better chasing. Better self-impulse from standstill, "flag drag", maybe the doombringer can get a new secondary that launchers pathfinders rather than rockets; I don't care. Chasing is fun to do, fun to have done to you, and fun to watch.

And you know what another word for fun to watch is?

ESPORTS.

God Bless America.

_________________
oh god where does this link go how did it get here I am not good with computer

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:06 pm

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The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.