Tribes:Ascend Forums

Why do automatics reward low latency?
Author	Message
lamebot Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:32 pm Posts: 215	Why do automatics reward low latency? The state of automatics right now is in a weird place where they become monstrously powerful in the hands of anyone who can track (easy) and has very low ping (not so easy.) I don't know if the visual feedback the player gets is just that much more representative of where you're shooting at when you're at 15~ ping or whatever but there's a need for you to come up with a solution that fixes this latency-bias. This needs to be addressed before anything else is done to automatics. The engine you're working on is very modular and you can write latency-neutral netcode and/or weaponry for it (other developers have!) Another issue created from this is if whatever feedback you rely on is from gameplay rather than forums-crying then your numbers are being heavily skewed by these latency affected weapons. I wouldn't doubt that automatics on the west coast servers were doing less damage in games over the past week due to the universal 100+ ping issues they were having. This is just terrible for actually trying to balance this class of weapon; hence why this should take priority over messing with the damage numbers. Finally, a weapon that rewards a player for their proximity to the server they're playing on is anti-competitive in nature. The difference between 10-15 ping compared to 50-60 ping is huge when it comes to automatics. You're trying to bill this game as ~The Next E-Sports Thing~ and this should be incentive enough for you to look at the issue seriously. So if you're not already looking at ways to address this issue then uh-- please address this issue? +1 this or whatever, I just want this to get back to the devs.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:17 pm

Yetskii Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:34 am Posts: 754	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? Because of the so called skill involved in using weapons that fire in a straight stream of bullets. At least that is what the so called pro's say....
Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:46 pm

OuchMyBoobies Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:32 pm Posts: 992 Location: Eastern US	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage. i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:51 pm

Trilandian Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:28 pm Posts: 485	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? A better form of lag compensation is needed. I can hit things very easily in the training mode where there's no lag, but even with the 80-90 ping I usually get on Amsterdam, I can't hit squat. _________________ Thump... BOOM --- My Contributions Intelligent Turret Placement Management tools --- Important Topics Missing/Broken Features - tinyurl.com/TA-MaBF Tactics tutorial - tinyurl.com/TA-HRMaTATT Call down turrets - tinyurl.com/TA-CDT Varying unlock costs - tinyurl.com/TA-HRWTVUC
Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:00 pm

lamebot Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:32 pm Posts: 215	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? OuchMyBoobies wrote: this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage. i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control. What about client side hit detection? Works wonders with projectiles and shooting around walls isn't an issue in this game because nobody's playing duck in and out from behind the wall in this fast paced game. Hell, I'd trade for one or two BS deaths a night for just to be on even ground with someone at lower ping. A side effect being you'd need to be rigorous in your anti-cheat implementation to prevent abuse. From what i've seen hitscan already works off of client side hit detection. Last edited by lamebot on Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:11 pm

PubFiction Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:22 am Posts: 992	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? -5 damage applies to all automatics now is my vote. Also we are now live so where are central servers? My west coast friends are punished.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:19 pm

OP-Judas Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:44 am Posts: 195	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? OuchMyBoobies wrote: this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage. i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control. Yeah but in Q3 I dont even notice any delay on my shots until I hit 80-90 ms in ping. In this game you can definitely feel that shots are off at a ping of 40-50 ms. _________________ I pwnd Jesus
Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:25 pm

yarlesp Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:32 pm Posts: 1	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? OuchMyBoobies wrote: this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage. i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control. you can hold your own in quake 3 with 100ms pings because quake implements a system similar to the one people are asking for here even though it's not 100% lagless. latency of individual players in an fps is definitely something outside of the dev's control but lag compensation is very much within their control.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:31 pm

lamebot Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:32 pm Posts: 215	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? yarlesp wrote: OuchMyBoobies wrote: this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage. i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control. you can hold your own in quake 3 with 100ms pings because quake implements a system similar to the one people are asking for here even though it's not 100% lagless. latency of individual players in an fps is definitely something outside of the dev's control but lag compensation is very much within their control. Thank you, this sounds much more sane than going full client side.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:53 pm

wooser Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:07 pm Posts: 695	Re: Why do automatics reward low latency? This is definitely needed and not just making autos deal a tiny amount less damage or whatever.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:11 pm

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lamebot

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:32 pm
Posts: 215

Why do automatics reward low latency?

The state of automatics right now is in a weird place where they become monstrously powerful in the hands of anyone who can track (easy) and has very low ping (not so easy.) I don't know if the visual feedback the player gets is just that much more representative of where you're shooting at when you're at 15~ ping or whatever but there's a need for you to come up with a solution that fixes this latency-bias.

This needs to be addressed before anything else is done to automatics.

The engine you're working on is very modular and you can write latency-neutral netcode and/or weaponry for it (other developers have!)

Another issue created from this is if whatever feedback you rely on is from gameplay rather than forums-crying then your numbers are being heavily skewed by these latency affected weapons. I wouldn't doubt that automatics on the west coast servers were doing less damage in games over the past week due to the universal 100+ ping issues they were having. This is just terrible for actually trying to balance this class of weapon; hence why this should take priority over messing with the damage numbers.

Finally, a weapon that rewards a player for their proximity to the server they're playing on is anti-competitive in nature. The difference between 10-15 ping compared to 50-60 ping is huge when it comes to automatics. You're trying to bill this game as ~*The Next E-Sports Thing*~ and this should be incentive enough for you to look at the issue seriously.

So if you're not already looking at ways to address this issue then uh-- please address this issue?

+1 this or whatever, I just want this to get back to the devs.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:17 pm

OuchMyBoobies

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:32 pm
Posts: 992
Location: Eastern US

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage.

i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:51 pm

lamebot

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:32 pm
Posts: 215

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

OuchMyBoobies wrote:

this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage.

i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control.

What about client side hit detection? Works wonders with projectiles and shooting around walls isn't an issue in this game because nobody's playing duck in and out from behind the wall in this fast paced game. Hell, I'd trade for one or two BS deaths a night for just to be on even ground with someone at lower ping. A side effect being you'd need to be rigorous in your anti-cheat implementation to prevent abuse.

From what i've seen hitscan already works off of client side hit detection.

Last edited by lamebot on Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:11 pm

OP-Judas

Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:44 am
Posts: 195

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

OuchMyBoobies wrote:

this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage.

i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control.

Yeah but in Q3 I dont even notice any delay on my shots until I hit 80-90 ms in ping.
In this game you can definitely feel that shots are off at a ping of 40-50 ms.

_________________
I pwnd Jesus

Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:25 pm

lamebot

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:32 pm
Posts: 215

Re: Why do automatics reward low latency?

yarlesp wrote:

OuchMyBoobies wrote:

this is the way all fps shooters are. low latency makes aiming easier, and beyond netcode optimization (or better server locations?) there's nothing you can do about it. also, while having low ping is nice, it is certainly not necessary to do well. i've seen plenty of people own in quake 3 with 100ms pings. i can hold my on with 150ms ping on the london server...it's not ideal, but i can manage.

i don't know what you expect...it's the way it's always been, and always will be. latency in fps shooters is a variable outside their control.

you can hold your own in quake 3 with 100ms pings because quake implements a system similar to the one people are asking for here even though it's not 100% lagless. latency of individual players in an fps is definitely something outside of the dev's control but lag compensation is very much within their control.

Thank you, this sounds much more sane than going full client side.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:53 pm

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Why do automatics reward low latency?