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About pubs, parties and friends.
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Nevenor Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:20 pm Posts: 9	Re: About pubs, parties and friends. irimi wrote: The thing that's fundamentally different about T:A from games that use traditional team-matchmaking is the fact that anybody can join in the middle of a match. This makes the problem of doing matchmaking more difficult unless you completely segregate non-MM servers from MM servers... which would, again, require an increase in servers to accomodate for this. We all agree here that IF matchmaking is that hard to implement - don't do it, atleast make group joins.
Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:34 pm

irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: About pubs, parties and friends. Nevenor wrote: We all agree here that IF matchmaking is that hard to implement - don't do it, atleast make group joins. To be clear: I'm not arguing at all that matchmaking shouldn't be done, or group joins either. I'm merely thinking aloud on what makes it potentially difficult to do. Group joins is easy provided that you don't require the game to put all of you and your buddies to be on the same team.
Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:42 pm

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: About pubs, parties and friends. irimi wrote: He's not talking about machines to do the matchmaking, but machines to handle/host new games. There are certainly difficulties, but I do not see them as issues of server-farm scale. The total number of concurrent players isn't being increased at all. The only thing that changes is what amounts and distribution of "empty overhead" you try to maintain in the server cloud to account for "bulk joins". Consider this before-and-after slate of target server sizes: Code: Player Count Server Count Total Players 30 0 0 28 100 2800 24 0 0 22 0 0 Population: 2800 Servers: 100 Max party size: 2 Code: Player Count Server Count Total Players 30 20 600 28 70 1960 24 5 120 22 5 110 Population: 2790 Servers: 100 Max party size: 5 Yeah, I didn't quite get the population exactly the same, but I trust the principle is visible: Just moving the "slack" around can make it easy to provide even 5v5 matchmaking, with no real change in the global users-per-server average. Yes, in some cases it might be worse than that, but the overhead corresponds 1:1 with the player-base, or even gets smaller as the player-base increases relative to the size of the parties people make. Quote: The thing that's fundamentally different about T:A from games that use traditional team-matchmaking is the fact that anybody can join in the middle of a match. This makes the problem of doing matchmaking more difficult unless you completely segregate non-MM servers from MM servers... which would, again, require an increase in servers to accomodate for this. No, there's no need to have separate "party join" servers. All you have to do is implement a system that gracefully "reserves" room for the two halves of the party, and something to autobalance the teams prior to dropping them in. _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options. Last edited by hvcterr on Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:50 pm

irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: About pubs, parties and friends. hvcterr wrote: No, there's no need to have separate "party join" servers. All you have to do is implement a system that gracefully "reserves" room for the two halves of the party, and something to autobalance the teams prior to dropping them in. Unless parties are willing to put up with a long wait (i.e. for a match to finish or for another party of similar/equal size to queue), I don't see how you'd implement this without causing a huge disruption on existing players. I mean, mathematically the whole thing isn't hard to do (matching up pairs of pairs against quads, or finding servers to fit X number of people in X number of parties), but doing it right can be a challenge that, IMO, isn't technical unless you start talking about segregated MM servers.
Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:58 pm

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: About pubs, parties and friends. irimi wrote: Unless parties are willing to put up with a long wait (i.e. for a match to finish or for another party of similar/equal size to queue), I don't see how you'd implement this without causing a huge disruption on existing players. I made an edit to change my written description to something more spreadsheet-esque, to try to convey what I mean about the "amount distribution" of spare capacity. The system can guarantee bulk-joins by running many servers at slightly higher utilization while freeing up just a few servers with more slots. The vast majority of players are going to be shuffle-able solo acts anyway. _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:13 pm

Nevenor Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:20 pm Posts: 9	Re: About pubs, parties and friends. Bump. And I hope next update will bring us the answers ^_^
Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:17 am

Nevenor Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:20 pm Posts: 9	Re: About pubs, parties and friends. Bumpbump
Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:29 am

PubFiction Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:22 am Posts: 992	Re: About pubs, parties and friends. This is a nice feature I really liked in BF3, howerver saying that it is in almost every game is a stretch. Not in any valve games that I am aware of. In fact until I played BF3 I had never seen it in any game I played.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:58 am

FluffDaSheep Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:08 am Posts: 473	Re: About pubs, parties and friends. +1 to parties queuing up together. I don't actually care that I don't get to join the same team as my friends, but if there is some way to make that happen, all the better. The important thing is getting onto the same server without any hassle.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:56 am

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About pubs, parties and friends.

Author

Message

Nevenor

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:20 pm
Posts: 9

Re: About pubs, parties and friends.

irimi wrote:

The thing that's fundamentally different about T:A from games that use traditional team-matchmaking is the fact that anybody can join in the middle of a match. This makes the problem of doing matchmaking more difficult unless you completely segregate non-MM servers from MM servers... which would, again, require an increase in servers to accomodate for this.

We all agree here that IF matchmaking is that hard to implement - don't do it, atleast make group joins.

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:34 pm

irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: About pubs, parties and friends.

Nevenor wrote:

We all agree here that IF matchmaking is that hard to implement - don't do it, atleast make group joins.

To be clear: I'm not arguing at all that matchmaking shouldn't be done, or group joins either.

I'm merely thinking aloud on what makes it potentially difficult to do. Group joins is easy provided that you don't require the game to put all of you and your buddies to be on the same team.

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:42 pm

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: About pubs, parties and friends.

irimi wrote:

He's not talking about machines to do the matchmaking, but machines to handle/host new games.

There are certainly difficulties, but I do not see them as issues of server-farm scale. The total number of concurrent players isn't being increased at all. The only thing that changes is what amounts and distribution of "empty overhead" you try to maintain in the server cloud to account for "bulk joins". Consider this before-and-after slate of target server sizes:

Code:

Player Count    Server Count    Total Players
30              0               0
28              100             2800
24              0               0
22              0               0
                
Population:     2800    
Servers:        100     
Max party size: 2

Code:

      
Player Count    Server Count    Total Players
30              20              600
28              70              1960
24              5               120
22              5               110

Population:     2790    
Servers:        100     
Max party size: 5       

Yeah, I didn't quite get the population exactly the same, but I trust the principle is visible: Just moving the "slack" around can make it easy to provide even 5v5 matchmaking, with no real change in the global users-per-server average.

Yes, in some cases it might be worse than that, but the overhead corresponds 1:1 with the player-base, or even gets smaller as the player-base increases relative to the size of the parties people make.

Quote:

No, there's no need to have separate "party join" servers. All you have to do is implement a system that gracefully "reserves" room for the two halves of the party, and something to autobalance the teams prior to dropping them in.

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Last edited by hvcterr on Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:50 pm

irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: About pubs, parties and friends.

hvcterr wrote:

Unless parties are willing to put up with a long wait (i.e. for a match to finish or for another party of similar/equal size to queue), I don't see how you'd implement this without causing a huge disruption on existing players.

I mean, mathematically the whole thing isn't hard to do (matching up pairs of pairs against quads, or finding servers to fit X number of people in X number of parties), but doing it right can be a challenge that, IMO, isn't technical unless you start talking about segregated MM servers.

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:58 pm

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: About pubs, parties and friends.

irimi wrote:

I made an edit to change my written description to something more spreadsheet-esque, to try to convey what I mean about the "amount distribution" of spare capacity.

The system can guarantee bulk-joins by running many servers at slightly higher utilization while freeing up just a few servers with more slots. The vast majority of players are going to be shuffle-able solo acts anyway.

_________________
Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.

Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:13 pm

Nevenor

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:20 pm
Posts: 9

Re: About pubs, parties and friends.

Bump. And I hope next update will bring us the answers ^_^

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:17 am

Nevenor

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:20 pm
Posts: 9

Re: About pubs, parties and friends.

Bumpbump

Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:29 am

PubFiction

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:22 am
Posts: 992

Re: About pubs, parties and friends.

This is a nice feature I really liked in BF3, howerver saying that it is in almost every game is a stretch. Not in any valve games that I am aware of. In fact until I played BF3 I had never seen it in any game I played.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:58 am

FluffDaSheep

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:08 am
Posts: 473

Re: About pubs, parties and friends.

+1 to parties queuing up together.

I don't actually care that I don't get to join the same team as my friends, but if there is some way to make that happen, all the better. The important thing is getting onto the same server without any hassle.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:56 am

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