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CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!
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PessimiStick Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:25 am Posts: 679	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! IronKane wrote: In T2, 95% of the players were either lights or heavies. Correct. Quote: The light being the equivalent of the T:A Soldier. Incorrect. Light = Light. Quote: Mediums were played by those who wanted a challenge. Medium was played by turret farmers. Fullstop. Quote: And a lot of T2 maps had indoor flags. Scarabrae, a very popular map, was one. and required teamwork to win. T:A needs to have some maps like that and quit catering to the prima donna PTH's. /me sits back and waits for the reactions A) That's T1. B) By "popular" you mean "removed from rotation on every legit server". _________________ Dear Llamas: Don't touch my flag. Thanks.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:09 pm

SFJake Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:11 pm Posts: 381	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! IronKane wrote: And a lot of T2 maps had indoor flags. Scarabrae, a very popular map, was one. and required teamwork to win. T:A needs to have some maps like that and quit catering to the prima donna PTH's. /me sits back and waits for the reactions I'd love this =( At the very least, a map like Sunstar with fields powered by the generator, but that actually blocks all quick routes for pathfinders... Anything to break this up. _________________ http://sfjake.zxq.net
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:10 pm

PessimiStick Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:25 am Posts: 679	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! AustinNH wrote: If one of those PTHs would just stop and spam discs at the stand, they could quickly destroy all deployables and and either kill the HoF or force him off the stand. Doesn't require any strategy or team coordination. Boring to play but also boring to watch. So forcing the HoF to take 2 steps to the side is going to let you cap... how, exactly? It's clear that you either haven't watched many games, or weren't actually understanding what you were watching. _________________ Dear Llamas: Don't touch my flag. Thanks.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:11 pm

Eldiran Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:26 pm Posts: 256	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! pro-logic wrote: I've seen pathfinders call in an orbital strike while on their route, and fly through the orbital explosions to claim the flag.... effectively countering most of the defenders and deployables around the flag stand. Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing Orbital Strikes limited to players who aren't moving at all. Then it would at least require a bit of teamwork.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:26 pm

TaoRedeye Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:23 pm Posts: 350	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! Yetskii wrote: People tend to forget that while t2 did not have strikes, it had bombers.. Which took your gens to be up/At least 2 people to manually fly and bomb/was shrike bait normally before it got past midfield/rarely got more than 1-2 runs in. But yes. It was in the game. And very fun to use.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:28 pm

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! IronKane wrote: Now to p*** off some of the Pathfinders [...] And a lot of T2 maps had indoor flags. I want to then plug a proposal for Flag Magnet Stands. In retrospect it should be named differently, but... Basically, a way for an assault force to fight their way into the enemy flag-room, take the flag, peek out the door, and temporarily re-plant it outside in a predictable open-air spot. Then their Pathfinder teammates can do what they do best. When this happens the defenders need to shift their defense to the outdoor point, until the flag can be returned back to its much-more-comfortable indoor resting place. _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:33 pm

TaoRedeye Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:23 pm Posts: 350	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! AustinNH wrote: TaoRedeye wrote: http://www.tribescast.com Tons of VoDs. Some good teams, some OK teams. You will see many cappers getting stopped. Ah. I stopped watching this thread but now that you've responded... Yes I've already watched many of those. Probably most of them. What I regularly see is cappers trying to headbutt DMBs off the flag. When it doesn't work, they try to headbutt them harder. That is not evidence that defense works. That is evidence that some cappers are stupid. If one of those PTHs would just stop and spam discs at the stand, they could quickly destroy all deployables and and either kill the HoF or force him off the stand. Doesn't require any strategy or team coordination. Boring to play but also boring to watch. Glad you watched some of the Competitive VoDs. The problem is. Cappers have to run continuous routes to gain Momentum/speed. This routes start from spawn points and run through the enemy flag. IF they stop this route their speed will be dramatically slower and they will be sniper fodder/stand D fodder. It is up to the capper to let his teammates know when he will be grabbing the flag so they can clear for him. The clearers have to stay alive long enough to be a presence while the capper is physically grabbing the flag. If they die to early the capper has no recourse but to do his best to grab even if it isnt clear. With untimed Offenses you will see that alot
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:45 pm

AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! Yetskii wrote: People tend to forget that while t2 did not have strikes, it had bombers.. Yes OMG that's the point. Bombers required a half-decent pilot, and bombardier (admittedly an easy job) and a tailgunner with missles, chaingun, flares, ammo pack, and skill. What ensued was a challenging and entertaining offensive strategy that could be countered by coordinated and interesting defense. It was fun to do, and fun to watch. Hell, even being bombed was fun, at least you know that your opponents had to have a modicum of skill and coordination to get past your shrikes and AA turrets and keep that bomber alive over your base for more than 10 seconds. And then you could start thinking about what to do about the constant raining death in the sky. Get a couple missile launchers out to make the tailgunner run out of flares. Now repair your vehicle station (yes they could be destroyed) and get some good shrike pilots in the air. Repair or put up AA turrets (which had shields so they couldn't be killed by a capper spamming discs.) Etc etc. This was fun to play, and fun to watch. Strikes are just: point at flag stand, stuff blows up. There's no commitment from any team member (except for credits). The capper can just do it. It takes no coordination or skiil or decision making. Worst of all, there's no defensive counter to it. You just have to wait for it to end, then get back to your flag unless it was already taken, in which case all you can do is hope someone is at the enemy base for a e-grab. _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:17 pm

AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! PessimiStick wrote: So forcing the HoF to take 2 steps to the side is going to let you cap... how, exactly? It's clear that you either haven't watched many games, or weren't actually understanding what you were watching. I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Obviously that's not all you need to cap. I didn't say it was. You certainly still have to deal with sniper and shrike defense, both of which I think are somewhat broken. Maybe that's what you were getting at? Depending on the map a nitron spamming PTH defense too. What's your point? _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:36 pm

AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue! TaoRedeye wrote: Glad you watched some of the Competitive VoDs. The problem is. Cappers have to run continuous routes to gain Momentum/speed. This routes start from spawn points and run through the enemy flag. IF they stop this route their speed will be dramatically slower and they will be sniper fodder/stand D fodder. It is up to the capper to let his teammates know when he will be grabbing the flag so they can clear for him. The clearers have to stay alive long enough to be a presence while the capper is physically grabbing the flag. If they die to early the capper has no recourse but to do his best to grab even if it isnt clear. With untimed Offenses you will see that alot Of course a capper has to stop his route to begin disk spam. But it's easy for a team to run two cappers. They could run dedicated LO for flag stand harass, but a PTH in his capper getup will include a fusor or a bolt launcher, and he can run a route and decide at the last few seconds to interrupt his route or finish it depending on what kind of defense is up. The fusor in particular can spam the stand from outside the effective range of most of the defense (he can easily juke disks, since he's not constrained to remain near near a particular spot, the flag). Yes the sniper can reach him, but the sniper really should be looking for the capper and interrupting his route or softening him up on his way to the stand. In any case, as I said above, I think snipers are somewhat broken themselves. Along with shrikes they are far more effective than any other defenses at shutting down halfway decent PTHs, and cannot be disk spammed but instead require very heavy/effective offense to counter. I'll admit that half my problem may be that the casters tend not to focus on the offense and instead just watch cappers running their 250+ routes and then crashing into the HoF. But I still notice that a team is rarely successful at actually keeping their flag on the stand. The only effective defense is holding on to the enemy flag and e-grabs. But I play this game too, and rarely see a defense that I can't disk spam into submission. Anyway, I think I'll go watch another and see what I see. _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:21 pm

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CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

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PessimiStick

Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 679

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

IronKane wrote:

In T2, 95% of the players were either lights or heavies.

Correct.

Quote:

The light being the equivalent of the T:A Soldier.

Incorrect. Light = Light.

Quote:

Mediums were played by those who wanted a challenge.

Medium was played by turret farmers. Fullstop.

Quote:

And a lot of T2 maps had indoor flags. Scarabrae, a very popular map, was one.

and required teamwork to win. T:A needs to have some maps like that and quit catering to the prima donna PTH's.

/me sits back and waits for the reactions

A) That's T1.
B) By "popular" you mean "removed from rotation on every legit server".

_________________

Dear Llamas: Don't touch my flag. Thanks.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:09 pm

SFJake

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:11 pm
Posts: 381

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

IronKane wrote:

And a lot of T2 maps had indoor flags. Scarabrae, a very popular map, was one.
and required teamwork to win. T:A needs to have some maps like that and quit catering to the prima donna PTH's.

/me sits back and waits for the reactions

I'd love this =( At the very least, a map like Sunstar with fields powered by the generator, but that actually blocks all quick routes for pathfinders... Anything to break this up.

_________________
http://sfjake.zxq.net

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:10 pm

PessimiStick

Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 679

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

AustinNH wrote:

If one of those PTHs would just stop and spam discs at the stand, they could quickly destroy all deployables and and either kill the HoF or force him off the stand. Doesn't require any strategy or team coordination. Boring to play but also boring to watch.

So forcing the HoF to take 2 steps to the side is going to let you cap... how, exactly?

It's clear that you either haven't watched many games, or weren't actually understanding what you were watching.

_________________

Dear Llamas: Don't touch my flag. Thanks.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:11 pm

Eldiran

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:26 pm
Posts: 256

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

pro-logic wrote:

I've seen pathfinders call in an orbital strike while on their route, and fly through the orbital explosions to claim the flag.... effectively countering most of the defenders and deployables around the flag stand.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing Orbital Strikes limited to players who aren't moving at all. Then it would at least require a bit of teamwork.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:26 pm

TaoRedeye

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:23 pm
Posts: 350

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

Yetskii wrote:

People tend to forget that while t2 did not have strikes, it had bombers..

Which took your gens to be up/At least 2 people to manually fly and bomb/was shrike bait normally before it got past midfield/rarely got more than 1-2 runs in.

But yes. It was in the game. And very fun to use.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:28 pm

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

IronKane wrote:

Now to p*** off some of the Pathfinders [...] And a lot of T2 maps had indoor flags.

I want to then plug a proposal for Flag Magnet Stands. In retrospect it should be named differently, but...

Basically, a way for an assault force to fight their way into the enemy flag-room, take the flag, peek out the door, and temporarily re-plant it outside in a predictable open-air spot. Then their Pathfinder teammates can do what they do best. When this happens the defenders need to shift their defense to the outdoor point, until the flag can be returned back to its much-more-comfortable indoor resting place.

_________________
Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:33 pm

TaoRedeye

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:23 pm
Posts: 350

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

AustinNH wrote:

TaoRedeye wrote:

http://www.tribescast.com

Tons of VoDs. Some good teams, some OK teams. You will see many cappers getting stopped.

Ah. I stopped watching this thread but now that you've responded... Yes I've already watched many of those. Probably most of them. What I regularly see is cappers trying to headbutt DMBs off the flag. When it doesn't work, they try to headbutt them harder. That is not evidence that defense works. That is evidence that some cappers are stupid.

If one of those PTHs would just stop and spam discs at the stand, they could quickly destroy all deployables and and either kill the HoF or force him off the stand. Doesn't require any strategy or team coordination. Boring to play but also boring to watch.

Glad you watched some of the Competitive VoDs. The problem is. Cappers have to run continuous routes to gain Momentum/speed. This routes start from spawn points and run through the enemy flag. IF they stop this route their speed will be dramatically slower and they will be sniper fodder/stand D fodder. It is up to the capper to let his teammates know when he will be grabbing the flag so they can clear for him.

The clearers have to stay alive long enough to be a presence while the capper is physically grabbing the flag. If they die to early the capper has no recourse but to do his best to grab even if it isnt clear. With untimed Offenses you will see that alot

Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:45 pm

AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

Yetskii wrote:

People tend to forget that while t2 did not have strikes, it had bombers..

Yes OMG that's the point. Bombers required a half-decent pilot, and bombardier (admittedly an easy job) and a tailgunner with missles, chaingun, flares, ammo pack, and skill. What ensued was a challenging and entertaining offensive strategy that could be countered by coordinated and interesting defense. It was fun to do, and fun to watch. Hell, even being bombed was fun, at least you know that your opponents had to have a modicum of skill and coordination to get past your shrikes and AA turrets and keep that bomber alive over your base for more than 10 seconds. And then you could start thinking about what to do about the constant raining death in the sky. Get a couple missile launchers out to make the tailgunner run out of flares. Now repair your vehicle station (yes they could be destroyed) and get some good shrike pilots in the air. Repair or put up AA turrets (which had shields so they couldn't be killed by a capper spamming discs.) Etc etc. This was fun to play, and fun to watch.

Strikes are just: point at flag stand, stuff blows up. There's no commitment from any team member (except for credits). The capper can just do it. It takes no coordination or skiil or decision making. Worst of all, there's no defensive counter to it. You just have to wait for it to end, then get back to your flag unless it was already taken, in which case all you can do is hope someone is at the enemy base for a e-grab.

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:17 pm

AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

PessimiStick wrote:

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Obviously that's not all you need to cap. I didn't say it was. You certainly still have to deal with sniper and shrike defense, both of which I think are somewhat broken. Maybe that's what you were getting at? Depending on the map a nitron spamming PTH defense too.

What's your point?

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:36 pm

AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!

TaoRedeye wrote:

Of course a capper has to stop his route to begin disk spam. But it's easy for a team to run two cappers. They could run dedicated LO for flag stand harass, but a PTH in his capper getup will include a fusor or a bolt launcher, and he can run a route and decide at the last few seconds to interrupt his route or finish it depending on what kind of defense is up. The fusor in particular can spam the stand from outside the effective range of most of the defense (he can easily juke disks, since he's not constrained to remain near near a particular spot, the flag). Yes the sniper can reach him, but the sniper really should be looking for the capper and interrupting his route or softening him up on his way to the stand. In any case, as I said above, I think snipers are somewhat broken themselves. Along with shrikes they are far more effective than any other defenses at shutting down halfway decent PTHs, and cannot be disk spammed but instead require very heavy/effective offense to counter.

I'll admit that half my problem may be that the casters tend not to focus on the offense and instead just watch cappers running their 250+ routes and then crashing into the HoF. But I still notice that a team is rarely successful at actually keeping their flag on the stand. The only effective defense is holding on to the enemy flag and e-grabs. But I play this game too, and rarely see a defense that I can't disk spam into submission.

Anyway, I think I'll go watch another and see what I see.

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:21 pm

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CTF & Pathfinders! The real issue!