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please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP
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blecro Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm Posts: 192	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP AustinNH wrote: Drag would not make speeds more uniform than a speed cap. The speed cap makes the speed uniform. If by "speed cap" you mean T1/T2's automatic jet angle adjustment, then I beg to differ. In T2c you can only reach 108kph horizontally by jetting, but a capper normally sees speeds of over 300kph horizontally. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un_XAYX9jws, for example. AustinNH wrote: It's true that drag will destroy your speed, but this only makes it mork like T2, which never had frictionless skiing, and you had to actively jet up and ski down just to keep going fast. But T2c does have frictionless skiing. You can test it yourself. You can also find noFrictionOnSki = true in player.cs. You don't need to ski down slopes just to recover speed. AustinNH wrote: In T:A you just hold spacebar and maintain your speed forever, taking a lot of the challenge and concentration out of moving quickly across the map. The same would be true of T2c if not for its terrain, which is generally unforgiving and covered in details. Even smooth looking maps like TWL2-Ocular are more intricate than they appear. The hopping during skiing also requires you to manage the hops to avoid bad collisions. T:A on the other hand is full of smooth, flowing terrain. Combined with sliding instead of hopping, you can just take a nap on your spacebar.
Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:24 am

AustinNH Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am Posts: 83	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP 1) Yes I didn't mean to say that T2 style speed cap can't be exceeded by skiing. But it is a hard upper limit on what you can reach on jet alone. Drag would give more options to burst past it etc. Of course in either case you can ski faster. 2) T2c has frictionless skiing? This is news to me. I played a lot of T2c and I thought if you just tried to ski the whole length of Kata you would slow down and stop. This was probably just because of the rougher terrain and the hopping mechanic, but either way it has a similar effect on gameplay. 3) Totally agree with you about the smooth flowing terrain in T:A. It makes skiing more shallow and too easy. The video you posted is a great example of this, using the terrain to change your direction and making best use of every little dip and bump in the terrain. This reminds me that I really do wish the terrain was rougher. In T:A it's just endless rolling hills. _________________ 100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?
Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:07 pm

blecro Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm Posts: 192	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP I don't think drag proportional to speed will work. T2 uses this internally and I can't find constants that strike a good balance. I'm either moving through glue or it's so small that it might as well be zero. Make it proportional to speed squared, like it should be, and maybe it'll work. Here's what the internal T2 code looks like (from here): Code: F32 hvel = mSqrt(mVelocity.x * mVelocity.x + mVelocity.y * mVelocity.y); if(hvel > mDataBlock->horizResistSpeed) { F32 speedCap = hvel; if(speedCap > mDataBlock->horizMaxSpeed) speedCap = mDataBlock->horizMaxSpeed; speedCap -= mDataBlock->horizResistFactor * TickSec * (speedCap - mDataBlock->horizResistSpeed); F32 scale = speedCap / hvel; mVelocity.x = scale; mVelocity.y = scale; } if(mVelocity.z > mDataBlock->upResistSpeed) { if(mVelocity.z > mDataBlock->upMaxSpeed) mVelocity.z = mDataBlock->upMaxSpeed; mVelocity.z -= mDataBlock->upResistFactor * TickSec * (mVelocity.z - mDataBlock->upResistSpeed); } Here are the values that Base and Classic use for light armor (from player.cs). Note horizResistFactor = 0 in Classic: Code: Base Classic horizResistSpeed 119 kph 175 kph horizMaxSpeed 245 kph 1800 kph horizResistFactor 0.35 0 upResistSpeed 90 kph 75 kph upMaxSpeed 288 kph 187 kph upResistFactor 0.3 0.35
Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:32 am

blecro Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm Posts: 192	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP I collected some data on the Pathfinder's average jet acceleration over the first second from standstill when various movement keys are held. Keep in mind that gravity is 62.5kph/s and all of this data goes out the window once your speed reaches the magic 72kph. Code: Keys Held \| Horizontal kph/s \| Upward kph/s \| Overall kph/s -----------+------------------+--------------+--------------- None \| 0.0 \| 73.5 \| 73.5 W \| 51.5 \| 86.8 \| 100.9 S \| 55.5 \| 75.3 \| 93.5 A \| 60.5 \| 70.1 \| 92.6 W + A \| 59.1 \| 72.7 \| 93.7 S + A \| 57.2 \| 72.3 \| 92.2 Weird stuff. In particular, holding W makes the jet the strongest, especially upward. This means the best way to recover from falling off a ledge is to hold W while jetting and spin your vision in circles!
Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:16 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4847 Location: NA East	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP blecro wrote: This means the best way to recover from falling off a ledge is to hold W while jetting and spin your vision in circles! Just like in real life! _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:43 am

Styel Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm Posts: 626	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP I would love to see correct physics, but I have lost faith only because this has been a problem since Alpha testing and nothing was done about it. _________________ Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? thesliver wrote: I say "Son, stop being so newb" Physics Poll
Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:17 pm

RootbeerAlamode Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:01 pm Posts: 1538 Steam Gamer Name: D-Hearts	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP blecro wrote: I collected some data on the Pathfinder's average jet acceleration over the first second from standstill when various movement keys are held. Keep in mind that gravity is 62.5kph/s and all of this data goes out the window once your speed reaches the magic 72kph. Code: Keys Held \| Horizontal kph/s \| Upward kph/s \| Overall kph/s -----------+------------------+--------------+--------------- None \| 0.0 \| 73.5 \| 73.5 W \| 51.5 \| 86.8 \| 100.9 S \| 55.5 \| 75.3 \| 93.5 A \| 60.5 \| 70.1 \| 92.6 W + A \| 59.1 \| 72.7 \| 93.7 S + A \| 57.2 \| 72.3 \| 92.2 Weird stuff. In particular, holding W makes the jet the strongest, especially upward. This means the best way to recover from falling off a ledge is to hold W while jetting and spin your vision in circles! Curious as to how you got these got these numbers? I assume to measure vertical speed you were jetting against a vertical surface to isolate just this vertical component? If so, this creates a weird anomaly where all your horizontal thrust is directed upward, it was how we originally discovered the weird snaking back and forth for extra height thing. _________________ 100% Inheritance, 100% Intuitive. Inheritance Demonstration [video] Tips for Aiming with 100% [video]
Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:22 pm

blecro Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm Posts: 192	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP RootbeerAlamode wrote: Curious as to how you got these numbers? First I measured the net average acceleration by plainly jetting. Call this value A. Then I measured the ratio between the horizontal and vertical parts by jetting from one side of the Crossfire conduit to the other, using the decorations as markers. Call this value R. Then I solved h^2 + (u - 62.5)^2 = A^2 and h = R(u - 62.5) for h and u to get the horizontal kph/s and upward kph/s. The overall kph/s is of course sqrt(h^2 + u^2). I also made a video to demonstrate holding forward while jetting to recover from falls: (http://youtu.be/93V1SjX557M)
Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:17 pm

sparkest Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:04 pm Posts: 1425	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP I just don't understand how hi-rez can look at that and think its just fine.
Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:49 pm

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP blecro wrote: I also made a video to demonstrate holding forward while jetting to recover from falls Another nice test is to jet backwards when going about 80 kph forwards. You'll gain more height than if you just did a neutral (no arrow keys) jet. It seems there's a benefit to forward jetting, and another benefit to jetting in the opposite direction that you are moving. I wonder if the whole thing is actually some massively-modified airplane/glider model under the hood... _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:56 pm

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please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

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blecro

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm
Posts: 192

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

AustinNH wrote:

Drag would not make speeds more uniform than a speed cap. The speed cap makes the speed uniform.

If by "speed cap" you mean T1/T2's automatic jet angle adjustment, then I beg to differ. In T2c you can only reach 108kph horizontally by jetting, but a capper normally sees speeds of over 300kph horizontally. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un_XAYX9jws, for example.

AustinNH wrote:

It's true that drag will destroy your speed, but this only makes it mork like T2, which never had frictionless skiing, and you had to actively jet up and ski down just to keep going fast.

But T2c does have frictionless skiing. You can test it yourself. You can also find noFrictionOnSki = true in player.cs. You don't need to ski down slopes just to recover speed.

AustinNH wrote:

In T:A you just hold spacebar and maintain your speed forever, taking a lot of the challenge and concentration out of moving quickly across the map.

The same would be true of T2c if not for its terrain, which is generally unforgiving and covered in details. Even smooth looking maps like TWL2-Ocular are more intricate than they appear. The hopping during skiing also requires you to manage the hops to avoid bad collisions. T:A on the other hand is full of smooth, flowing terrain. Combined with sliding instead of hopping, you can just take a nap on your spacebar.

Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:24 am

AustinNH

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:07 am
Posts: 83

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

1) Yes I didn't mean to say that T2 style speed cap can't be exceeded by skiing. But it is a hard upper limit on what you can reach on jet alone. Drag would give more options to burst past it etc. Of course in either case you can ski faster.

2) T2c has frictionless skiing? This is news to me. I played a lot of T2c and I thought if you just tried to ski the whole length of Kata you would slow down and stop. This was probably just because of the rougher terrain and the hopping mechanic, but either way it has a similar effect on gameplay.

3) Totally agree with you about the smooth flowing terrain in T:A. It makes skiing more shallow and too easy. The video you posted is a great example of this, using the terrain to change your direction and making best use of every little dip and bump in the terrain.

This reminds me that I really do wish the terrain was rougher. In T:A it's just endless rolling hills.

_________________
100% Inheritance! Pretty Please?

Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:07 pm

blecro

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm
Posts: 192

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

I don't think drag proportional to speed will work. T2 uses this internally and I can't find constants that strike a good balance. I'm either moving through glue or it's so small that it might as well be zero. Make it proportional to speed squared, like it should be, and maybe it'll work.

Here's what the internal T2 code looks like (from here):

Code:

F32 hvel = mSqrt(mVelocity.x * mVelocity.x + mVelocity.y * mVelocity.y);
if(hvel > mDataBlock->horizResistSpeed)
{
    F32 speedCap = hvel;
    if(speedCap > mDataBlock->horizMaxSpeed)
        speedCap = mDataBlock->horizMaxSpeed;
    speedCap -= mDataBlock->horizResistFactor * TickSec * (speedCap - mDataBlock->horizResistSpeed);
    F32 scale = speedCap / hvel;
    mVelocity.x *= scale;
    mVelocity.y *= scale;
}
if(mVelocity.z > mDataBlock->upResistSpeed)
{
    if(mVelocity.z > mDataBlock->upMaxSpeed)
        mVelocity.z = mDataBlock->upMaxSpeed;
    mVelocity.z -= mDataBlock->upResistFactor * TickSec * (mVelocity.z - mDataBlock->upResistSpeed);
}

Here are the values that Base and Classic use for light armor (from player.cs). Note horizResistFactor = 0 in Classic:

Code:

                      Base      Classic
horizResistSpeed     119 kph     175 kph
horizMaxSpeed        245 kph    1800 kph
horizResistFactor      0.35        0
upResistSpeed         90 kph      75 kph
upMaxSpeed           288 kph     187 kph
upResistFactor         0.3         0.35

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:32 am

blecro

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm
Posts: 192

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

I collected some data on the Pathfinder's average jet acceleration over the first second from standstill when various movement keys are held. Keep in mind that gravity is 62.5kph/s and all of this data goes out the window once your speed reaches the magic 72kph.

Code:

   Keys Held | Horizontal kph/s | Upward kph/s | Overall kph/s
  -----------+------------------+--------------+---------------
     None    |        0.0       |     73.5     |      73.5
       W     |       51.5       |     86.8     |     100.9
       S     |       55.5       |     75.3     |      93.5
       A     |       60.5       |     70.1     |      92.6
     W + A   |       59.1       |     72.7     |      93.7
     S + A   |       57.2       |     72.3     |      92.2

Weird stuff. In particular, holding W makes the jet the strongest, especially upward. This means the best way to recover from falling off a ledge is to hold W while jetting and spin your vision in circles!

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:16 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4847
Location: NA East

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

blecro wrote:

This means the best way to recover from falling off a ledge is to hold W while jetting and spin your vision in circles!

Just like in real life!

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:43 am

Styel

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm
Posts: 626

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

I would love to see correct physics, but I have lost faith only because this has been a problem since Alpha testing and nothing was done about it.

_________________
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

thesliver wrote:

I say "Son, stop being so newb"

Physics Poll

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:17 pm

RootbeerAlamode

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:01 pm
Posts: 1538
Steam Gamer Name: D-Hearts

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

blecro wrote:

Code:

   Keys Held | Horizontal kph/s | Upward kph/s | Overall kph/s
  -----------+------------------+--------------+---------------
     None    |        0.0       |     73.5     |      73.5
       W     |       51.5       |     86.8     |     100.9
       S     |       55.5       |     75.3     |      93.5
       A     |       60.5       |     70.1     |      92.6
     W + A   |       59.1       |     72.7     |      93.7
     S + A   |       57.2       |     72.3     |      92.2

Curious as to how you got these got these numbers?
I assume to measure vertical speed you were jetting against a vertical surface to isolate just this vertical component?
If so, this creates a weird anomaly where all your horizontal thrust is directed upward, it was how we originally discovered the weird snaking back and forth for extra height thing.

_________________
100% Inheritance, 100% Intuitive.
Inheritance Demonstration [video]
Tips for Aiming with 100% [video]

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:22 pm

blecro

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm
Posts: 192

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

RootbeerAlamode wrote:

Curious as to how you got these numbers?

First I measured the net average acceleration by plainly jetting. Call this value A. Then I measured the ratio between the horizontal and vertical parts by jetting from one side of the Crossfire conduit to the other, using the decorations as markers. Call this value R. Then I solved h^2 + (u - 62.5)^2 = A^2 and h = R(u - 62.5) for h and u to get the horizontal kph/s and upward kph/s. The overall kph/s is of course sqrt(h^2 + u^2).

I also made a video to demonstrate holding forward while jetting to recover from falls:

(http://youtu.be/93V1SjX557M)

Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:17 pm

sparkest

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:04 pm
Posts: 1425

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

I just don't understand how hi-rez can look at that and think its just fine.

Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:49 pm

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

blecro wrote:

I also made a video to demonstrate holding forward while jetting to recover from falls

Another nice test is to jet backwards when going about 80 kph forwards. You'll gain more height than if you just did a neutral (no arrow keys) jet.

It seems there's a benefit to forward jetting, and another benefit to jetting in the opposite direction that you are moving. I wonder if the whole thing is actually some massively-modified airplane/glider model under the hood...

_________________
Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.

Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:56 pm

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please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP