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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?
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DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns? Edit: Note that this thread was previously titled "[Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?" As we all can see, there's been a lot of discussion about the balance of autos and bullet weapons and a lot of strange solution as to how balance should work. I figure it couldn't hurt to throw my strange solution out there >_> This idea should help to balance the problem of "autos counter heavies" due to their low mobility and very large hitboxes, despite logic pointing in the opposite direction; It makes sense for lower calibre weapons to shred Lights, but Heavy armour should mitigate an amount of damage from lower-penetration bullets, à la physics. EDIT: Note the format for classifications has changed, the idea remains mostly the same however. Specifically my idea is to take all non-explosive weapons and give them "Armour Penetration" ratings, ranging from 1, through to 5 just like any other rating, which would appear at the top-right of the weapon screen alongside the other ratings seen here: Basically, the higher the Armour Penetration of the weapon, the lower the resistance heavier armour will grant against the weapon's shots. Damage Table option #1: Code: Class:\| AP1: \| AP2: \| AP3: \| AP4: \| AP5: \| ------------------------------------------ Light \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| Medium\| 90% \| 95% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| Heavy \| 80% \| 85% \| 90% \| 95% \| 100% \| AP1 = % Damage taken from weapons with Armour Penetration of 1. AP2 = % Damage taken from weapons with Armour Penetration of 2, etc. As you can see, a weapon with the lowest possible of 1 Armour Penetration deals 10% less to Medium targets and 20% less to Heavy targets, whereas a weapon with maxed-out 5 Armour Penetration deals 100% damage regardless of the target's armour type. OR Damage Table option #2: Code: Class:\| AP1: \| AP2: \| AP3: \| AP4: \| AP5: \| ------------------------------------------ Light \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| Medium\| 85% \| 90% \| 95% \| 100% \| 100% \| Heavy \| 70% \| 77.5%\| 85% \| 92.5%\| 100% \| OR Damage Table option #3: Code: Class:\| AP1: \| AP2: \| AP3: \| AP4: \| AP5: \| ------------------------------------------ Light \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| Medium\| 90% \| 95% \| 100% \| 100% \| 100% \| Heavy \| 70% \| 77.5%\| 85% \| 92.5%\| 100% \| Please let me know which Damage Table option you feel is most balanced, or suggest a new option if you want; these values are based largely on feedback i receive. Weapon AP List option #1: Code: Weapon:\| AP: \| -------------- Falcon \| 1 \| Rhino \| 1 \| TCN4 \| 1 \| NJ4 \| 1 \| LAR \| 1 \| AR \| 2 \| X1 LMG \| 2 \| Chain \| 3 \| Sparrow\| 3 \| Eagle \| 3 \| AutoSG \| 4 \| Shotgun\| 4 \| Saw-Off\| 4 \| SN7 Sil\| 4 \| Knives \| 4 \| N Colt \| 5 \| N Blast\| 5 \| BXT1 R \| 5 \| Phase R\| 5 \| Alternatively, if you wanted to focus mostly on changing autos... Weapon AP List option #2: Code: Weapon:\| AP: \| -------------- Falcon \| 1 \| Rhino \| 1 \| TCN4 \| 1 \| NJ4 \| 1 \| LAR \| 1 \| AR \| 2 \| X1 LMG \| 2 \| Chain \| 3 \| Sparrow\| 4 \| Eagle \| 4 \| AutoSG \| 4 \| Shotgun\| 4 \| Saw-Off\| 4 \| SN7 Sil\| 5 \| Knives \| 5 \| N Colt \| 5 \| N Blast\| 5 \| BXT1 R \| 5 \| Phase R\| 5 \| Alternatively again, If you then wanted to reduce sniper effectivity on heavy targets, and give the Chain Gun and automatic rifles higher AP... Weapon AP List option #3: Code: Weapon:\| AP: \| -------------- Falcon \| 1 \| Rhino \| 1 \| TCN4 \| 1 \| NJ4 \| 1 \| LAR \| 2 \| AR \| 3 \| X1 LMG \| 3 \| Phase R\| 4 \| BXT1 R \| 4 \| Chain \| 4 \| Sparrow\| 4 \| Eagle \| 4 \| AutoSG \| 4 \| Shotgun\| 4 \| Saw-Off\| 4 \| SN7 Sil\| 5 \| Knives \| 5 \| N Colt \| 5 \| N Blast\| 5 \| Please let me know which Weapon AP List option you feel is most balanced, or suggest a new option if you want; these values are based largely on feedback i receive. These are only my rough estimates for the Armour Penetration value set to each weapon, and my rough estimate for exactly how much damage would be resisted based upon that. If you have suggestions for modifications for this or improvements please comment Feel free to suggest that specific weapons be changed in Armour Penetration, or to suggest that the % resistance for each armour be changed. If I agree with your reasoning I'll edit the thread OP, and if I don't I'll discuss it with you. ^^ If you prefer a different solution then VGRD, this just seemed logical to me. Not claiming it's the epitome of perfection. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much! Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Wed May 16, 2012 8:36 am, edited 27 times in total.
Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:28 pm

w1mark Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:34 pm Posts: 248	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? I feel like sometime in the future hirez is going to actually give some customization to the "armor" category in which only has 1 type for every class so far. Most likely they'll have differences in protection and mobility(possibly ammo capacity). That's my guess at least. Others have suggested this I believe in threads like this. Last edited by w1mark on Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:45 pm

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4870 Location: NA East	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? Interesting idea, but seems complicated. Especially specifying LAP. Lights should just take full damage from everything, and if they are, why label it special? Mids should have 10%-15% resistance to autos. Heavies should have 33%-50% resistance to autos. Really anything that fires one bullet per trigger pull right now seems fine. Actually, looking at it closely, this accomplishes almost the same thing as you describe, just without giving heavies shot gun resistance, and splitting autos into two classes, with two different resistances for heavies. It'd be easier to just rely on higher damage output of the heavier autos, instead of separate resistances for them, IMO. Basically same result, just different execution. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:58 pm

Immie Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:10 pm Posts: 1310	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? I'd be OK with trying something like this. I especially like how you went with fairly small numbers, like 20% as the highest value that any weapon would have its damage nerfed by. That's enough to make a huge difference. I've seen people asking for reductions like 66%, reducing weapons to just a third of what they once were... that is simply absurd; may as well remove it from the game. _________________ Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes.
Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:01 pm

spacecowboy87 Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:10 am Posts: 105	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? Came up with a similar idea a while back. Agree wholeheartedly. Shotguns shouldn't be as effective either, imo. Explosive should be the most effective against heavies, which at the moment, they aren't.
Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:03 pm

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4870 Location: NA East	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? Immie wrote: I especially like how you went with fairly small numbers, like 20% as the highest value that any weapon would have its damage nerfed by. That's enough to make a huge difference. I've seen people asking for reductions like 66%, reducing weapons to just a third of what they once were... that is simply absurd; may as well remove it from the game. I'd agree anything over 50% is absurd, but I can't help but think about how easily and quickly my TNC4 shreds heavies. I would still win most of the time at half damage. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:12 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? Immie wrote: I especially like how you went with fairly small numbers, like 20% as the highest value that any weapon would have its damage nerfed by. That's enough to make a huge difference. I've seen people asking for reductions like 66%, reducing weapons to just a third of what they once were... that is simply absurd; may as well remove it from the game. I know what you mean. Some people are either raving-mad or have no idea how balancing works. Taking even a hypothetical "most OP weapon in the game" and nerfing its effectivity by just 10% would leave it simply being powerful, but not OP. It's as if some people want to completely invalidate autos all together so that even the strongest one is merely an assisting / finishing weapon. I don't want that, I simply want to come to a reasonable balance that makes logical sense. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:22 pm

NKuga Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:55 pm Posts: 308	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? If implemented at all, I would rather have the varying damages calculated in a simple manner. All armor types take full AoE damage, and then Light/Med/Heavy will take 100%/X%/Y% from bullet-type weapons. No need to make things overly complicated, yes?
Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:31 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? -AEnubis- wrote: Interesting idea, but seems complicated. Especially specifying LAP. Lights should just take full damage from everything, and if they are, why label it special? Labels were just to get the info across, I know they aren't very good If this ever made it into the game (which is overambitious of me to say) they certainly wouldn't have these labels, probably more likely a "Penetration" stat on the loadout screen. -AEnubis- wrote: Mids should have 10%-15% resistance to autos. Heavies should have 33%-50% resistance to autos. I kind of feel the same way, but gotta moderate changes; anything drastic would flat out not work and would create outrage. Balancing must either work in subtle minor ways or not work at all. However I will take your suggestion into account. -AEnubis- wrote: Really anything that fires one bullet per trigger pull right now seems fine. Actually, looking at it closely, this accomplishes almost the same thing as you describe, just without giving heavies shot gun resistance Yeah, I didn't really want to target pistols and shotties very much, because they're pretty well balanced, though placing all shotties and pistols in Heavy Armour Penetrating might be a little inconsistent with the reasoning behind the idea.... That said I am willing to be convinced into changing it, given reasonable evidence/argument. -AEnubis- wrote: and [without] splitting autos into two classes, with two different resistances for heavies. It'd be easier to just rely on higher damage output of the heavier autos, instead of separate resistances for them, IMO. Basically same result, just different execution. I understand what you mean, and that could be a good idea. However I've placed them as is right now in following the reasoning behind the idea, regarding bullet calibre/penetration. I might rework the categories if necessary. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:42 pm

VoltCruelerz Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:50 pm Posts: 721	Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories? I'd be comfortable trying something like this. It might fall on it's face, but I'd like to give it a test. It seems perfectly reasonable. _________________
Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:33 pm

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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

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DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?

Edit: Note that this thread was previously titled "[Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?"

As we all can see, there's been a lot of discussion about the balance of autos and bullet weapons and a lot of strange solution as to how balance should work.

I figure it couldn't hurt to throw my strange solution out there >_>

This idea should help to balance the problem of "autos counter heavies" due to their low mobility and very large hitboxes, despite logic pointing in the opposite direction; It makes sense for lower calibre weapons to shred Lights, but Heavy armour should mitigate an amount of damage from lower-penetration bullets, à la physics.

EDIT: Note the format for classifications has changed, the idea remains mostly the same however.

Specifically my idea is to take all non-explosive weapons and give them "Armour Penetration" ratings, ranging from 1, through to 5 just like any other rating, which would appear at the top-right of the weapon screen alongside the other ratings seen here:

Basically, the higher the Armour Penetration of the weapon, the lower the resistance heavier armour will grant against the weapon's shots.
Damage Table option #1:

Code:

Class:| AP1: | AP2: | AP3: | AP4: | AP5: |
------------------------------------------
Light | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Medium|  90% |  95% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Heavy |  80% |  85% |  90% |  95% | 100% |

AP1 = % Damage taken from weapons with Armour Penetration of 1.
AP2 = % Damage taken from weapons with Armour Penetration of 2, etc.

As you can see, a weapon with the lowest possible of 1 Armour Penetration deals 10% less to Medium targets and 20% less to Heavy targets, whereas a weapon with maxed-out 5 Armour Penetration deals 100% damage regardless of the target's armour type.

OR Damage Table option #2:

Code:

Class:| AP1: | AP2: | AP3: | AP4: | AP5: |
------------------------------------------
Light | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Medium| 85%  | 90%  | 95%  | 100% | 100% |
Heavy | 70%  | 77.5%| 85%  | 92.5%| 100% |

OR Damage Table option #3:

Code:

Class:| AP1: | AP2: | AP3: | AP4: | AP5: |
------------------------------------------
Light | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Medium| 90%  | 95%  | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Heavy | 70%  | 77.5%| 85%  | 92.5%| 100% |

Please let me know which Damage Table option you feel is most balanced, or suggest a new option if you want; these values are based largely on feedback i receive.

Weapon AP List option #1:

Code:

Weapon:| AP: |
--------------
Falcon |  1  |
Rhino  |  1  |
TCN4   |  1  |
NJ4    |  1  |
LAR    |  1  |
AR     |  2  |
X1 LMG |  2  |
Chain  |  3  |
Sparrow|  3  |
Eagle  |  3  |
AutoSG |  4  |
Shotgun|  4  |
Saw-Off|  4  |
SN7 Sil|  4  |
Knives |  4  |
N Colt |  5  |
N Blast|  5  |
BXT1 R |  5  |
Phase R|  5  |

Alternatively, if you wanted to focus mostly on changing autos...
Weapon AP List option #2:

Code:

Weapon:| AP: |
--------------
Falcon |  1  |
Rhino  |  1  |
TCN4   |  1  |
NJ4    |  1  |
LAR    |  1  |
AR     |  2  |
X1 LMG |  2  |
Chain  |  3  |
Sparrow|  4  |
Eagle  |  4  |
AutoSG |  4  |
Shotgun|  4  |
Saw-Off|  4  |
SN7 Sil|  5  |
Knives |  5  |
N Colt |  5  |
N Blast|  5  |
BXT1 R |  5  |
Phase R|  5  |

Alternatively again, If you then wanted to reduce sniper effectivity on heavy targets, and give the Chain Gun and automatic rifles higher AP...
Weapon AP List option #3:

Code:

Weapon:| AP: |
--------------
Falcon |  1  |
Rhino  |  1  |
TCN4   |  1  |
NJ4    |  1  |
LAR    |  2  |
AR     |  3  |
X1 LMG |  3  |
Phase R|  4  |
BXT1 R |  4  |
Chain  |  4  |
Sparrow|  4  |
Eagle  |  4  |
AutoSG |  4  |
Shotgun|  4  |
Saw-Off|  4  |
SN7 Sil|  5  |
Knives |  5  |
N Colt |  5  |
N Blast|  5  |

Please let me know which Weapon AP List option you feel is most balanced, or suggest a new option if you want; these values are based largely on feedback i receive.

These are only my rough estimates for the Armour Penetration value set to each weapon, and my rough estimate for exactly how much damage would be resisted based upon that.

If you have suggestions for modifications for this or improvements please comment

Feel free to suggest that specific weapons be changed in Armour Penetration, or to suggest that the % resistance for each armour be changed. If I agree with your reasoning I'll edit the thread OP, and if I don't I'll discuss it with you. ^^

If you prefer a different solution then VGRD, this just seemed logical to me. Not claiming it's the epitome of perfection.

_________________
This signature is green. I like the colour green.
Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green.
Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!

Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Wed May 16, 2012 8:36 am, edited 27 times in total.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:28 pm

w1mark

Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:34 pm
Posts: 248

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

I feel like sometime in the future hirez is going to actually give some customization to the "armor" category in which only has 1 type for every class so far. Most likely they'll have differences in protection and mobility(possibly ammo capacity).

That's my guess at least. Others have suggested this I believe in threads like this.

Last edited by w1mark on Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:45 pm

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4870
Location: NA East

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

Interesting idea, but seems complicated. Especially specifying LAP. Lights should just take full damage from everything, and if they are, why label it special?

Mids should have 10%-15% resistance to autos.
Heavies should have 33%-50% resistance to autos.

Really anything that fires one bullet per trigger pull right now seems fine.

Actually, looking at it closely, this accomplishes almost the same thing as you describe, just without giving heavies shot gun resistance, and splitting autos into two classes, with two different resistances for heavies.

It'd be easier to just rely on higher damage output of the heavier autos, instead of separate resistances for them, IMO. Basically same result, just different execution.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:58 pm

Immie

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:10 pm
Posts: 1310

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

I'd be OK with trying something like this.

I especially like how you went with fairly small numbers, like 20% as the highest value that any weapon would have its damage nerfed by. That's enough to make a huge difference. I've seen people asking for reductions like 66%, reducing weapons to just a third of what they once were... that is simply absurd; may as well remove it from the game.

_________________
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Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:01 pm

spacecowboy87

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:10 am
Posts: 105

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

Came up with a similar idea a while back. Agree wholeheartedly. Shotguns shouldn't be as effective either, imo. Explosive should be the most effective against heavies, which at the moment, they aren't.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:03 pm

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4870
Location: NA East

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

Immie wrote:

I especially like how you went with fairly small numbers, like 20% as the highest value that any weapon would have its damage nerfed by. That's enough to make a huge difference. I've seen people asking for reductions like 66%, reducing weapons to just a third of what they once were... that is simply absurd; may as well remove it from the game.

I'd agree anything over 50% is absurd, but I can't help but think about how easily and quickly my TNC4 shreds heavies.

I would still win most of the time at half damage.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:12 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

Immie wrote:

I know what you mean. Some people are either raving-mad or have no idea how balancing works.

Taking even a hypothetical "most OP weapon in the game" and nerfing its effectivity by just 10% would leave it simply being powerful, but not OP.

It's as if some people want to completely invalidate autos all together so that even the strongest one is merely an assisting / finishing weapon. I don't want that, I simply want to come to a reasonable balance that makes logical sense.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:22 pm

NKuga

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:55 pm
Posts: 308

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

If implemented at all, I would rather have the varying damages calculated in a simple manner. All armor types take full AoE damage, and then Light/Med/Heavy will take 100%/X%/Y% from bullet-type weapons. No need to make things overly complicated, yes?

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:31 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

-AEnubis- wrote:

Interesting idea, but seems complicated. Especially specifying LAP. Lights should just take full damage from everything, and if they are, why label it special?

Labels were just to get the info across, I know they aren't very good

If this ever made it into the game (which is overambitious of me to say) they certainly wouldn't have these labels, probably more likely a "Penetration" stat on the loadout screen.

-AEnubis- wrote:

Mids should have 10%-15% resistance to autos.
Heavies should have 33%-50% resistance to autos.

I kind of feel the same way, but gotta moderate changes; anything drastic would flat out not work and would create outrage. Balancing must either work in subtle minor ways or not work at all.
However I will take your suggestion into account.

-AEnubis- wrote:

Really anything that fires one bullet per trigger pull right now seems fine.

Actually, looking at it closely, this accomplishes almost the same thing as you describe, just without giving heavies shot gun resistance

Yeah, I didn't really want to target pistols and shotties very much, because they're pretty well balanced, though placing all shotties and pistols in Heavy Armour Penetrating might be a little inconsistent with the reasoning behind the idea....
That said I am willing to be convinced into changing it, given reasonable evidence/argument.

-AEnubis- wrote:

and [without] splitting autos into two classes, with two different resistances for heavies.

It'd be easier to just rely on higher damage output of the heavier autos, instead of separate resistances for them, IMO. Basically same result, just different execution.

I understand what you mean, and that could be a good idea.
However I've placed them as is right now in following the reasoning behind the idea, regarding bullet calibre/penetration.
I might rework the categories if necessary.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:42 pm

VoltCruelerz

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:50 pm
Posts: 721

Re: [Idea/Balance] Weapon Penetration vs Armour Categories?

I'd be comfortable trying something like this. It might fall on it's face, but I'd like to give it a test. It seems perfectly reasonable.

_________________

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:33 pm

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[Idea/Balance] Armour Penetration stat/rating on guns?