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General CaH Feedback
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pala Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:40 am Posts: 895	Single spawn point! C&H should only have a single spawn point for both teams (stronghold which cannot be captured) From this point both teams have equal distance for 3-4 conquerable nodes. You go from stronghold to outpost task: CAPTURE IT or to HOLD IT. What we have now is just another team deathmatch mode with changing spawns. Its close to nonsense to have spawning happenning on outposts which can be conquered in 1 sec and 1 guy. fighting comes very random and grouping players for holding is hard. Its good for deathmatch but very bad for gamemode in general. _________________
Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:12 am

PlaysWithWolves Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:19 pm Posts: 33	Re: General CaH Feedback Orbital strikes are no fun, especially in the last few minutes of the game. As I've stated in other threads: I like that there are two highly-defensible points in Raindance. I think I'd prefer turnovers be based on number of players in the proximity but it's been so long since I'd played Tribes 2, I don't recall what the protocol is. It could be I'm just longing for some siege gameplay.
Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:01 am

Molybdane Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:23 pm Posts: 220	Re: General CaH Feedback CaH is a game type where heavies can truely shine. That being said, travelling across the map can be rather boring and/or tiresome. This can be helped somewhat by making sure the spawning places are on elevated territory, they need not be on hilltops perse. I do like to stress that is is okay that travel times to the points for heavies aren't instantaneous. This is after all how the game mode balances the classes. Orbital strikes are a problem, but it appears that Kata has the solution. Out of the 4 points on the map, 2 can't be hit at all, and at the other 2, towers offer some protection against the strikes. This makes orbital strikes effective enough to consider, but not impossible to avoid.
Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:00 am

veryBadKarMa Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:21 pm Posts: 11	Re: General CaH Feedback I did not have the time to test raindance yet. From the other two maps I must say that I really liked this gamemode on Outskirts and extremely hated it on Katabatic. I guess the reason is the number of capture points. The game is very intense on 3 points. Blood Eagles and Diamondsword can each hold one spot and fight for another. And if they put too much in their attacking, they might loose their base. ...on the 4 point map everything became very confusing: Which to hold, which to attack, where is the other team, how to split up. This may be interesting for teams where the teammates all know each other and have some sort of voicechat running. Otherwise it ends up in frustrating one-vs-all fights, in which your affordances get denied by enemies just touching the spot shortly after you. I'm not sure if it works better on a map with uneven spots or just on a map with "few" spots. So I have to test Raindance. Some minor things: - I would prefer the holdnumber to count down instead of counting up. It's easier to estimate the time to victory this way around. - Sometimes not all of the spots show on the hud when they are out of the view (happened several times on katabatic) - It would be great if you can mark a capture point for the team and it displays highlighted on the hud ("attack A") - when one spot is regularly touched by opposing teams, then it is hard to tell, who was the last one until the hold time is over. Sure it changes the sign and so on, but this could still be improved. - I'd really like to see one or two King of the Hill maps with just 1 spot.
Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:59 am

veryBadKarMa Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:21 pm Posts: 11	Re: General CaH Feedback Molybdane wrote: travelling across the map can be rather boring and/or tiresome. This can be helped somewhat by making sure the spawning places are on elevated territory, they need not be on hilltops perse. I do like to stress that is is okay that travel times to the points for heavies aren't instantaneous. This is after all how the game mode balances the classes. I really hated the two hilltop-capturepoints on Katabatic. As a jugg it is quite annoying to climb them up (even when accelerated by skiing down the other one).
Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:04 pm

Molybdane Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:23 pm Posts: 220	Re: General CaH Feedback veryBadKarMa wrote: Molybdane wrote: travelling across the map can be rather boring and/or tiresome. This can be helped somewhat by making sure the spawning places are on elevated territory, they need not be on hilltops perse. I do like to stress that is is okay that travel times to the points for heavies aren't instantaneous. This is after all how the game mode balances the classes. I really hated the two hilltop-capturepoints on Katabatic. As a jugg it is quite annoying to climb them up (even when accelerated by skiing down the other one). That's what's making them such good real estate. But maybe some spawnpoints on higher ground, perhaps a bit closer to the edges Might help. I was thinking about something else. The Raindance and Outskirts maps have objectives whose location serves as a bottleneck. This might create some situations which are that hectic that it robs this gametype of longevity. Why not go for a three objective map in which the objective layout is more like a triangle, so that you end up with two objectives to go to, each about as obvious a choice as the other?
Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:02 pm

veryBadKarMa Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:21 pm Posts: 11	Re: General CaH Feedback Molybdane wrote: Why not go for a three objective map in which the objective layout is more like a triangle, so that you end up with two objectives to go to, each about as obvious a choice as the other? This is definately a must for maps that are unique to this gametype. At least it makes sense if the spawnpoints remain that random. Somebody already mentioned it earlier, but the spawns are terrible. I've just started a match on Raindance and at the roundstart I spawned next to 2 enemies. In a previous match on Katabatic I spawned next to an enemy base turret (!). This random spawning is already annoying TDM and Arena, but there it makes at least a bit sense. In CaH it should be possible to spawn at one main base similar to CTF. It's quite hard to orientate when respawning at random spots on symmetrical maps.
Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:27 pm

VonSchlupeurk Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:05 pm Posts: 448	Re: General CaH Feedback This game mode is pretty mindless , points switch way too quickly and easily. I can buy a tank and have it shot by base turrets a few seconds later. Those treacherous undead turrets are very annoying in combat when you're trying to defend a point outside. A compromise solution (that wouldn't overpower fractals too much) would be to lengthen flyby switch time to 15-20 seconds , and shorten it up to 5 seconds the longer you stand on the point. Spam battles for one point would yield no result , steady defense and opportunistic attacking would work better. _________________ Tactician bronze badge : 500 XP. Getting it from a supply drop in combat : priceless.
Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:02 pm

Litego Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:12 pm Posts: 5538 Location: North Cape - Norway	Re: General CaH Feedback I agree that the spawn points should be fixed at each side of the maps on small hills. So many times while attacking and winning was I ambushed by 2 guys who just spawned on the point. The underground points also need several entrances. And the turrets, why are they even there? I think they should just be removed. It was annoying getting shot by what I thought was my own base turret because some dude skied over the point 5 seconds ago and I did not get to it right away. Just remove them, they don't really serve any purpose, it was not hard to avoid them when you were attacking and aware of them, but super annoying when defending and they turned on you. It is the players that should be defending, not turrets. Remove them! But one thing I can not agree with is that 3 points is better, because I found 5 points to be the most fun. At 5 points you could easily hold a point by your own, or cap a point alone because the most you ended up with was 3v1, but most often 2v1, which is manageable. While on the 3 point map you had to stick together with the rest of your team. _________________ Lag spike + lag compensation = lols
Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:32 pm

Breadman86 Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:56 pm Posts: 178 Location: Huntsville, AL	Re: General CaH Feedback After playing a bit more, I think I shall say a bit more! This is not instead of my first post in this thread, more an addition. The linear nature of Outskirts makes it my favorite C&H map by far. I generally feel like there is a good flow when it comes to capturing bases, and it feels more like teams can "push" forward, with the side possibility of doing a sneak attack and taking points on the opposite side of the map. It just feels good, generally. Having said that, point A is in fact a complete cluster like everyone is saying. It's fractal heaven. This is not good. Don't have a solution. The more I play Kata, the more I really don't feel like it's suited for C&H, specifically with respect to the two middle top-of-the-hill points. Basically, those points are only worth capturing if you're a medium or light armor and it pushes the heavies back into points C and D. The C and D battles are fun and genuinely feel like good battles, while the A and B battles are silly, with points changing hands a little too quickly for my taste.
Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:54 pm

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General CaH Feedback

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pala

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:40 am
Posts: 895

Single spawn point!

C&H should only have a single spawn point for both teams (stronghold which cannot be captured)

From this point both teams have equal distance for 3-4 conquerable nodes. You go from stronghold to outpost task: CAPTURE IT or to HOLD IT.

What we have now is just another team deathmatch mode with changing spawns. Its close to nonsense to have spawning happenning on outposts which can be conquered in 1 sec and 1 guy. fighting comes very random and grouping players for holding is hard.

Its good for deathmatch but very bad for gamemode in general.

_________________

Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:12 am

PlaysWithWolves

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:19 pm
Posts: 33

Re: General CaH Feedback

Orbital strikes are no fun, especially in the last few minutes of the game.

As I've stated in other threads: I like that there are two highly-defensible points in Raindance.

I think I'd prefer turnovers be based on number of players in the proximity but it's been so long since I'd played Tribes 2, I don't recall what the protocol is.

It could be I'm just longing for some siege gameplay.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:01 am

Molybdane

Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:23 pm
Posts: 220

Re: General CaH Feedback

CaH is a game type where heavies can truely shine. That being said, travelling across the map can be rather boring and/or tiresome. This can be helped somewhat by making sure the spawning places are on elevated territory, they need not be on hilltops perse. I do like to stress that is is okay that travel times to the points for heavies aren't instantaneous. This is after all how the game mode balances the classes.

Orbital strikes are a problem, but it appears that Kata has the solution. Out of the 4 points on the map, 2 can't be hit at all, and at the other 2, towers offer some protection against the strikes. This makes orbital strikes effective enough to consider, but not impossible to avoid.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:00 am

veryBadKarMa

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:21 pm
Posts: 11

Re: General CaH Feedback

I did not have the time to test raindance yet. From the other two maps I must say that I really liked this gamemode on Outskirts and extremely hated it on Katabatic. I guess the reason is the number of capture points.

The game is very intense on 3 points. Blood Eagles and Diamondsword can each hold one spot and fight for another. And if they put too much in their attacking, they might loose their base.

...on the 4 point map everything became very confusing: Which to hold, which to attack, where is the other team, how to split up. This may be interesting for teams where the teammates all know each other and have some sort of voicechat running. Otherwise it ends up in frustrating one-vs-all fights, in which your affordances get denied by enemies just touching the spot shortly after you.

I'm not sure if it works better on a map with uneven spots or just on a map with "few" spots. So I have to test Raindance.

Some minor things:
- I would prefer the holdnumber to count down instead of counting up. It's easier to estimate the time to victory this way around.
- Sometimes not all of the spots show on the hud when they are out of the view (happened several times on katabatic)
- It would be great if you can mark a capture point for the team and it displays highlighted on the hud ("attack A")
- when one spot is regularly touched by opposing teams, then it is hard to tell, who was the last one until the hold time is over. Sure it changes the sign and so on, but this could still be improved.
- I'd really like to see one or two King of the Hill maps with just 1 spot.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:59 am

veryBadKarMa

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:21 pm
Posts: 11

Re: General CaH Feedback

Molybdane wrote:

travelling across the map can be rather boring and/or tiresome. This can be helped somewhat by making sure the spawning places are on elevated territory, they need not be on hilltops perse. I do like to stress that is is okay that travel times to the points for heavies aren't instantaneous. This is after all how the game mode balances the classes.

I really hated the two hilltop-capturepoints on Katabatic. As a jugg it is quite annoying to climb them up (even when accelerated by skiing down the other one).

Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:04 pm

Molybdane

Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:23 pm
Posts: 220

Re: General CaH Feedback

veryBadKarMa wrote:

Molybdane wrote:

I really hated the two hilltop-capturepoints on Katabatic. As a jugg it is quite annoying to climb them up (even when accelerated by skiing down the other one).

That's what's making them such good real estate. But maybe some spawnpoints on higher ground, perhaps a bit closer to the edges Might help.

I was thinking about something else. The Raindance and Outskirts maps have objectives whose location serves as a bottleneck. This might create some situations which are that hectic that it robs this gametype of longevity. Why not go for a three objective map in which the objective layout is more like a triangle, so that you end up with two objectives to go to, each about as obvious a choice as the other?

Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:02 pm

veryBadKarMa

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:21 pm
Posts: 11

Re: General CaH Feedback

Molybdane wrote:

Why not go for a three objective map in which the objective layout is more like a triangle, so that you end up with two objectives to go to, each about as obvious a choice as the other?

This is definately a must for maps that are unique to this gametype. At least it makes sense if the spawnpoints remain that random.

Somebody already mentioned it earlier, but the spawns are terrible. I've just started a match on Raindance and at the roundstart I spawned next to 2 enemies. In a previous match on Katabatic I spawned next to an enemy base turret (!).
This random spawning is already annoying TDM and Arena, but there it makes at least a bit sense. In CaH it should be possible to spawn at one main base similar to CTF. It's quite hard to orientate when respawning at random spots on symmetrical maps.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:27 pm

VonSchlupeurk

Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:05 pm
Posts: 448

Re: General CaH Feedback

This game mode is pretty mindless , points switch way too quickly and easily. I can buy a tank and have it shot by base turrets a few seconds later. Those treacherous undead turrets are very annoying in combat when you're trying to defend a point outside.

A compromise solution (that wouldn't overpower fractals too much) would be to lengthen flyby switch time to 15-20 seconds , and shorten it up to 5 seconds the longer you stand on the point. Spam battles for one point would yield no result , steady defense and opportunistic attacking would work better.

_________________

Tactician bronze badge : 500 XP. Getting it from a supply drop in combat : priceless.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:02 pm

Litego

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:12 pm
Posts: 5538
Location: North Cape - Norway

Re: General CaH Feedback

I agree that the spawn points should be fixed at each side of the maps on small hills. So many times while attacking and winning was I ambushed by 2 guys who just spawned on the point.

The underground points also need several entrances.

And the turrets, why are they even there? I think they should just be removed. It was annoying getting shot by what I thought was my own base turret because some dude skied over the point 5 seconds ago and I did not get to it right away. Just remove them, they don't really serve any purpose, it was not hard to avoid them when you were attacking and aware of them, but super annoying when defending and they turned on you. It is the players that should be defending, not turrets. Remove them!

But one thing I can not agree with is that 3 points is better, because I found 5 points to be the most fun. At 5 points you could easily hold a point by your own, or cap a point alone because the most you ended up with was 3v1, but most often 2v1, which is manageable. While on the 3 point map you had to stick together with the rest of your team.

_________________
Lag spike + lag compensation = lols

Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:32 pm

Breadman86

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 178
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: General CaH Feedback

After playing a bit more, I think I shall say a bit more! This is not instead of my first post in this thread, more an addition.

The linear nature of Outskirts makes it my favorite C&H map by far. I generally feel like there is a good flow when it comes to capturing bases, and it feels more like teams can "push" forward, with the side possibility of doing a sneak attack and taking points on the opposite side of the map. It just feels good, generally. Having said that, point A is in fact a complete cluster like everyone is saying. It's fractal heaven. This is not good. Don't have a solution.

The more I play Kata, the more I really don't feel like it's suited for C&H, specifically with respect to the two middle top-of-the-hill points. Basically, those points are only worth capturing if you're a medium or light armor and it pushes the heavies back into points C and D. The C and D battles are fun and genuinely feel like good battles, while the A and B battles are silly, with points changing hands a little too quickly for my taste.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:54 pm