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CTF Scoring: Ideas.
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-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4888 Location: NA East	CTF Scoring: Ideas. The sheep need a better Shepard. The point system is what teaches you how to play. People go where the points are. Frag rewards are too high. VDG and VDF rewards should be swapped. There is very little reward for VAD. There isn't sufficient enough or, good distribution of rewards for VAV. VFR reward isn't dynamic enough. VAC and VAT rewards should scale to speed and upgrade level respectively. Some example numbers (can't stress enough, I am not married to these values, they are more to demonstrate the idea of the actual value of what is being accomplished. I'm not even 100% positive that the frags are worth what I site.). Red text items are things that were implemented post this threads creation. Frags from 600 to 400. Assists from 250 to 200. --Fragging should be of minimal reward unless done doing relevant tasks, as such the bonuses for frags in those areas should be more than the value of the frag alone. Gener-Defender from 400 to 200 Flag-Defender from 300 to 400 --By reward, the game used to reward you more for Gen protection than flag protection. They've since fixed this, but I feel it needs more adjustment. Flag-Defender to be applied when: --Some of these may already be the case, whether they work correctly or not Frags near your flag on the stand, or in the field. Frags near FFC (or players who recently damaged the FFC) Frags as FFC. FFDs. EFC Frags. Frags near the EFC. Defender Assist - 300 Stack with regular assist, when assist is on a frag with Flag-Defender bonus. Defense Disruptor - 25 Small bonus for destroying deployed defenses near the flag, not to include mines. Defense Hater - 200 Kill bonus for enemies near their own flag. Shrike down from 300 to 700 Bike down from 200 to 100 --Putting all vehicle down bonuses at a 1:6 ratio to cost. If the cost is balance by the effectiveness, then so should the reward for eliminating them. Shrike assist - 300 Tank assist - 200 --They can take a bit to take down, and are best accomplished as a team effort, so you should be rewarded as a team. Flag Return: Base Return - 100 (bronze) {2/3 of map on your side} Mid Field Return - 200 (silver) {2/3 of map centered} Deep Return 300 - (gold) {2/3 of map on their side} Denied - 400 (obsidian) {25m of enemy stand} Smart Return +200 when: Flag stays on stand for 10s after return. Flag is capped within 10s of return. Flag (dropped) is threatened in the field. --Reward good returns, and not "race your teammates to touch your flag." E-Grab from 200 to 500 Credits. --They are one of the most objective oriented moves in the game, should be on par with a high-speed grab. Stacking here is fine too, high-speed e-grabs should be money, because they are mad clutch. Special Modifiers: Frags 300 + 300 for each 100 sanics target is moving at up to 900 @ 200kph+. Turret/Radar down 100 + 100 x level of Asset. --Slow targets and stock turrets are stupid easy to kill. This would help bridge the point gap for chasers, who don't frag as often for bonuses as a HoF, or Gener-defender would. As well, giving more incentive to actually chase fast cappers, even though chasing is still pretty broken. I think this will go a long way to help team stacking, not directly by forcing those of us who know how to play to be responsible for it, but actually encourage more people to play properly, increasing (or at least better directing) the overall in game talent. If you're having trouble reading what's in blue, I'm trying to help you _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection Last edited by -AEnubis- on Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:46 am, edited 10 times in total.
Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:33 am

FluffDaSheep Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:08 am Posts: 473	Re: The point system encourages bad play. .. Two days ago my friend accidentally fragged someone near our generator and said he got the 400 generdefender accolade. I genuinely thought he was kidding about the amount, or that he misread or something. He had some difficulty believing it himself. It's ridiculous. Flag D should definitely be worth more than Gen D, I agree. Or at the very least, they should be the same. I think Flag D is worth less because it usually goes hand in hand with a return credit. There should be a Flag O accolade to make people clear flagstands as well. Combine those accolades (worth eg. 250-300 each) with reduced credits for random frags, the system will work better. New players might actually realize they need to fight over the flags, rather than whatever random scrap of terrain they are standing on.
Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:24 am

Xaraxitor Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:25 pm Posts: 376 Location: Sitting at computer.	Re: The point system encourages bad play. Whats bugging me at the moment is disking all the crap off the flag stand so my capper gets a chance to take the flag, taking out all their stuff earns you next to nothing, yet llama the flag earns you alot. So many things broken and no sign of any repairs. I'm going to give this 6 months after release, if there are no signs of repairs being done, or any updates just happen to be even more guns we don't need ect I will be outta here!
Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:32 am

Schottingham Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm Posts: 644	Re: The point system encourages bad play. -AEnubis- wrote: Flag return from 250 to 400 -BUT ONLY WHEN: Flag stays on stand for 10s after return. Flag is capped within 10s of return. Flag (dropped) is threatened in the field. --Reward good returns, and not "race your teammates to touch your flag." Special Modifiers: Frags 300 + 300 for each 100 sanics target is moving at up to 900 @ 200kph+. Turret/Radar down 100 + 100 x level of Asset. --Slow targets and stock turrets are stupid easy to kill. This would help bridge the point gap for chasers, who don't frag as often for bonuses as a HoF, or Gener-defender would. As well, giving more incentive to actually chase fast cappers, even though chasing is still pretty broken.[/color] These are brilliant, seriously. I would love to see pub scoring work like this. _________________ - Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video) - Remove regen, bring back health kits - Buff explosive jumping - 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)
Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:40 am

CrushaK Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:52 pm Posts: 375	Re: The point system encourages bad play. All good ideas. I wonder if there should be also a credit pool for the team that is only available for things that help the team and not individuals (i.e. is used for a discount on base upgrades when someone upgrades something and not for air strikes). The internal credit pool gets filled with the credits that someone still has left when he leaves in the middle of the match (and doesn't return), so those credits are not lost since he probably got them on occasions where a team member could have gotten them as well. And by kills of your base turrets, since they otherwise steal credits from you that your team could have got from a kill. Oh, and a higher reward for E-grabs would be nice. Currently it's still the usual 200 credits like a normal speed grab, although it is one of the most objective-oriented actions that you can perform in CTF. But the E-grab range should be increased as well. Way too often do you cap a flag just a second or two before the enemy would have scored and the game simply doesn't recognize that effort.
Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:02 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4888 Location: NA East	Re: The point system encourages bad play. FluffDaSheep wrote: It's ridiculous. Flag D should definitely be worth more than Gen D, I agree. Or at the very least, they should be the same. I think Flag D is worth less because it usually goes hand in hand with a return credit. Yes, I assumed they were the same. Some team-stacking issue I think prompted me to look. It makes sense that they would turn the bonuses down for the potential of stacked bonuses, but even with the return and the defender credit on the same kill, that should weigh the importance of the flags, vs killing one generator attacker. If all bonuses were the same, the similar idea would be conveyed. Generators are important to defend, but flags are more so. Currently Frag + FDef Bonus + Return = 600 + 200 + 250 = 1050 Frag + GDef Bonus = 600 + 400 = 1000 Implying that flags are only 5% more important than gens? But they won't stack. 3x Frag + 3x FDef Bonus + Return = 1800 + 600 + 250 = 2650 3x Frag + 3x GDef Bonus = 1800 + 1200 = 3000 With no bottle necks, and walls to splash off of, outdoor defense vs 3 is far more difficult than indoor defense. Again, very misappropriated awards. Schottingham wrote: These are brilliant, seriously. I would love to see pub scoring work like this. I just hope others agree, not that this is a "democracy" really. CrushaK wrote: Oh, and a higher reward for E-grabs would be nice. Currently it's still the usual 200 credits like a normal speed grab, although it is one of the most objective-oriented actions that you can perform in CTF. But the E-grab range should be increased as well. Way too often do you cap a flag just a second or two before the enemy would have scored and the game simply doesn't recognize that effort. SHAZBOT I knew I forgot one. Good call. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:15 am

Kolgax Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:19 pm Posts: 490	Re: The point system encourages bad play. I see no fault with any of this. I fully support these changes.
Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:33 am

eatmyspamm Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:58 am Posts: 81	Re: The point system encourages bad play. make CTF accolades more prominent -> maybe people will realize they play ctf If you want to push teamplay on pubs ... have fun. Alot of players just do what they want and thats usually not teamplay or CTF at all. _________________ >>>T2: RealPsyCo<<<
Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:45 am

Oroibahazopi Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:26 pm Posts: 1139	Re: The point system encourages bad play. The last one would mean sen become credit machines adding never ending orbitals to their arsenal.
Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:50 am

FluffDaSheep Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:08 am Posts: 473	Re: The point system encourages bad play. Oh btw, I think the speed adjustment for frags in the OP are way too high. Something like 300+victim's speed is probably enough. But y'know, details. Also, these changes would have no direct impact on team stacking. At best they will make newer / useless players do more useful things. It won't suddenly make them good enough to create balanced games if players are still intent on stacking (though it might mitigate the problem somewhat).
Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:08 am

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CTF Scoring: Ideas.

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-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4888
Location: NA East

CTF Scoring: Ideas.

The sheep need a better Shepard. The point system is what teaches you how to play. People go where the points are.

Frag rewards are too high.
VDG and VDF rewards should be swapped.
There is very little reward for VAD.
There isn't sufficient enough or, good distribution of rewards for VAV.
VFR reward isn't dynamic enough.
VAC and VAT rewards should scale to speed and upgrade level respectively.

Some example numbers (can't stress enough, I am not married to these values, they are more to demonstrate the idea of the actual value of what is being accomplished. I'm not even 100% positive that the frags are worth what I site.).

Red text items are things that were implemented post this threads creation.

Frags from 600 to 400.
Assists from 250 to 200.
--Fragging should be of minimal reward unless done doing relevant tasks, as such the bonuses for frags in those areas should be more than the value of the frag alone.

Gener-Defender from 400 to 200
Flag-Defender from 300 to 400
--By reward, the game used to reward you more for Gen protection than flag protection. They've since fixed this, but I feel it needs more adjustment.

Flag-Defender to be applied when:
--Some of these may already be the case, whether they work correctly or not

Frags near your flag on the stand, or in the field.
Frags near FFC (or players who recently damaged the FFC)
Frags as FFC.
FFDs.
EFC Frags.
Frags near the EFC.

Defender Assist - 300
Stack with regular assist, when assist is on a frag with Flag-Defender bonus.

Defense Disruptor - 25
Small bonus for destroying deployed defenses near the flag, not to include mines.

Defense Hater - 200
Kill bonus for enemies near their own flag.

Shrike down from 300 to 700
Bike down from 200 to 100
--Putting all vehicle down bonuses at a 1:6 ratio to cost. If the cost is balance by the effectiveness, then so should the reward for eliminating them.

Shrike assist - 300
Tank assist - 200
--They can take a bit to take down, and are best accomplished as a team effort, so you should be rewarded as a team.

Flag Return:
Base Return - 100 (bronze) {2/3 of map on your side}
Mid Field Return - 200 (silver) {2/3 of map centered}
Deep Return 300 - (gold) {2/3 of map on their side}
Denied - 400 (obsidian) {25m of enemy stand}

Smart Return +200 when:
Flag stays on stand for 10s after return.
Flag is capped within 10s of return.
Flag (dropped) is threatened in the field.
--Reward good returns, and not "race your teammates to touch your flag."

E-Grab from 200 to 500 Credits.
--They are one of the most objective oriented moves in the game, should be on par with a high-speed grab. Stacking here is fine too, high-speed e-grabs should be money, because they are mad clutch.

Special Modifiers:
Frags 300 + 300 for each 100 sanics target is moving at up to 900 @ 200kph+.
Turret/Radar down 100 + 100 x level of Asset.
--Slow targets and stock turrets are stupid easy to kill. This would help bridge the point gap for chasers, who don't frag as often for bonuses as a HoF, or Gener-defender would. As well, giving more incentive to actually chase fast cappers, even though chasing is still pretty broken.

I think this will go a long way to help team stacking, not directly by forcing those of us who know how to play to be responsible for it, but actually encourage more people to play properly, increasing (or at least better directing) the overall in game talent.

If you're having trouble reading what's in blue, I'm trying to help you

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Last edited by -AEnubis- on Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:46 am, edited 10 times in total.

Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:33 am

FluffDaSheep

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:08 am
Posts: 473

Re: The point system encourages bad play.

.. Two days ago my friend accidentally fragged someone near our generator and said he got the 400 generdefender accolade. I genuinely thought he was kidding about the amount, or that he misread or something. He had some difficulty believing it himself.

It's ridiculous. Flag D should definitely be worth more than Gen D, I agree. Or at the very least, they should be the same. I think Flag D is worth less because it usually goes hand in hand with a return credit.

There should be a Flag O accolade to make people clear flagstands as well.

Combine those accolades (worth eg. 250-300 each) with reduced credits for random frags, the system will work better. New players might actually realize they need to fight over the flags, rather than whatever random scrap of terrain they are standing on.

Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:24 am

Xaraxitor

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:25 pm
Posts: 376
Location: Sitting at computer.

Re: The point system encourages bad play.

Whats bugging me at the moment is disking all the crap off the flag stand so my capper gets a chance to take the flag, taking out all their stuff earns you next to nothing, yet llama the flag earns you alot.

So many things broken and no sign of any repairs.
I'm going to give this 6 months after release, if there are no signs of repairs being done, or any updates just happen to be even more guns we don't need ect I will be outta here!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:32 am

Schottingham

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 644

Re: The point system encourages bad play.

-AEnubis- wrote:

Flag return from 250 to 400 -BUT ONLY WHEN:
Flag stays on stand for 10s after return.
Flag is capped within 10s of return.
Flag (dropped) is threatened in the field.
--Reward good returns, and not "race your teammates to touch your flag."

Special Modifiers:
Frags 300 + 300 for each 100 sanics target is moving at up to 900 @ 200kph+.
Turret/Radar down 100 + 100 x level of Asset.
--Slow targets and stock turrets are stupid easy to kill. This would help bridge the point gap for chasers, who don't frag as often for bonuses as a HoF, or Gener-defender would. As well, giving more incentive to actually chase fast cappers, even though chasing is still pretty broken.[/color]

These are brilliant, seriously. I would love to see pub scoring work like this.

_________________
- Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video)
- Remove regen, bring back health kits
- Buff explosive jumping
- 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)

Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:40 am

CrushaK

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:52 pm
Posts: 375

Re: The point system encourages bad play.

All good ideas. I wonder if there should be also a credit pool for the team that is only available for things that help the team and not individuals (i.e. is used for a discount on base upgrades when someone upgrades something and not for air strikes).
The internal credit pool gets filled with the credits that someone still has left when he leaves in the middle of the match (and doesn't return), so those credits are not lost since he probably got them on occasions where a team member could have gotten them as well. And by kills of your base turrets, since they otherwise steal credits from you that your team could have got from a kill.

Oh, and a higher reward for E-grabs would be nice. Currently it's still the usual 200 credits like a normal speed grab, although it is one of the most objective-oriented actions that you can perform in CTF. But the E-grab range should be increased as well. Way too often do you cap a flag just a second or two before the enemy would have scored and the game simply doesn't recognize that effort.

Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:02 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4888
Location: NA East

Re: The point system encourages bad play.

FluffDaSheep wrote:

It's ridiculous. Flag D should definitely be worth more than Gen D, I agree. Or at the very least, they should be the same. I think Flag D is worth less because it usually goes hand in hand with a return credit.

Yes, I assumed they were the same. Some team-stacking issue I think prompted me to look.

It makes sense that they would turn the bonuses down for the potential of stacked bonuses, but even with the return and the defender credit on the same kill, that should weigh the importance of the flags, vs killing one generator attacker. If all bonuses were the same, the similar idea would be conveyed. Generators are important to defend, but flags are more so.

Currently
Frag + FDef Bonus + Return = 600 + 200 + 250 = 1050
Frag + GDef Bonus = 600 + 400 = 1000

Implying that flags are only 5% more important than gens?

But they won't stack.

3x Frag + 3x FDef Bonus + Return = 1800 + 600 + 250 = 2650
3x Frag + 3x GDef Bonus = 1800 + 1200 = 3000

With no bottle necks, and walls to splash off of, outdoor defense vs 3 is far more difficult than indoor defense. Again, very misappropriated awards.

Schottingham wrote:

These are brilliant, seriously. I would love to see pub scoring work like this.

I just hope others agree, not that this is a "democracy" really.

CrushaK wrote:

Oh, and a higher reward for E-grabs would be nice. Currently it's still the usual 200 credits like a normal speed grab, although it is one of the most objective-oriented actions that you can perform in CTF. But the E-grab range should be increased as well. Way too often do you cap a flag just a second or two before the enemy would have scored and the game simply doesn't recognize that effort.

SHAZBOT I knew I forgot one. Good call.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:15 am

Kolgax

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:19 pm
Posts: 490

Re: The point system encourages bad play.

I see no fault with any of this. I fully support these changes.

Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:33 am

eatmyspamm

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:58 am
Posts: 81

Re: The point system encourages bad play.

make CTF accolades more prominent -> maybe people will realize they play ctf

If you want to push teamplay on pubs ... have fun. Alot of players just do what they want and thats usually not teamplay or CTF at all.

_________________

>>>T2: RealPsyCo<<<

Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:45 am

Oroibahazopi

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:26 pm
Posts: 1139

Re: The point system encourages bad play.

The last one would mean sen become credit machines adding never ending orbitals to their arsenal.

Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:50 am

FluffDaSheep

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:08 am
Posts: 473

Re: The point system encourages bad play.

Oh btw, I think the speed adjustment for frags in the OP are way too high. Something like 300+victim's speed is probably enough. But y'know, details.

Also, these changes would have no direct impact on team stacking. At best they will make newer / useless players do more useful things. It won't suddenly make them good enough to create balanced games if players are still intent on stacking (though it might mitigate the problem somewhat).

Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:08 am

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CTF Scoring: Ideas.