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ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?
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fr0zenknife Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:27 pm Posts: 110	Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment? Serosen wrote: I'd just like to see more damage on the Heavy Spinfusor and maybe some better shield efficiency. How about making HSP give more energy regen? Around %20 at max level? Because if you use HSP, you are giving up from EP's 35 energy AND your tiny little bit normal energy.
Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:53 pm

Alpherior Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 pm Posts: 266 Location: Ontario, Canada	Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment? wooser wrote: After comparing the autoshotty and colt in target practice after using both in games today I guess I can say I'm a little more educated on things. The projectile bullets from autos, turns out, are barely larger than the hitscan laser and use the same hitboxes for enemies. The nova colt also has no spread on full speed fire, unlike the eagle pistol, which is nice. Shotty: Normalised spread! Every shotgun needs it to be honest. No fall off. The weapon has a max range and a large spread, its range is very poor, may as well let the ~2 bullets that'll hit at max range deal more than 30 damage each. Even with this, it's still only 50 per pellet and not anything close to an SMG. Colt: Zoomed fire. Every weapon needs it, but this one really does. A lot. Same fire rate as the eagle pistol. I get that the weapon has a high skill ceiling with good reward, but the skill floor is quite high in itself with the unforgiving clip size. Much less forgiving than the shotgun and its spread, too. I'd rather have this than grazing shots or a larger clip size. Smaller model with small models on. I got no idea why this is the only weapon in the game that isn't effected by that setting, but it'd help to not have half the screen be your gun. Yeah, that was one of my major complaints -- no scoping. Also, the clip, yes, you can't just spam fire in the general direction of your enemy because of it so you have to somehow try super hard to have the target reticule directly on the target. I wonder if there's a mouse smoothing setting... It would surely help with doing that. _________________ Main Class: Brute (Devestator Spinfusor/Plasma Cannon/Extended Fractal/Safety Third/Potential Energy/Survival Pack)
Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:01 pm

Alpherior Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 pm Posts: 266 Location: Ontario, Canada	Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment? Does anyone know when the next patch is going to be? I'm so hoping for things to be addressed I can't wait. _________________ Main Class: Brute (Devestator Spinfusor/Plasma Cannon/Extended Fractal/Safety Third/Potential Energy/Survival Pack)
Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:02 pm

Tamburlaine Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:13 am Posts: 1859	Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment? Alpherior wrote: Does anyone know when the next patch is going to be? I'm so hoping for things to be addressed I can't wait. Soon™. For the last little while, they've been either doing them every week or every two weeks. If I wanted to bet money on this sort of thing, I'd say that we'll get nothing on Tuesday and a patch with a brute pack a week later. _________________ oh god where does this link go how did it get here I am not good with computer
Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:07 pm

Alpherior Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 pm Posts: 266 Location: Ontario, Canada	Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment? Tamburlaine wrote: Alpherior wrote: Does anyone know when the next patch is going to be? I'm so hoping for things to be addressed I can't wait. Soon™. For the last little while, they've been either doing them every week or every two weeks. If I wanted to bet money on this sort of thing, I'd say that we'll get nothing on Tuesday and a patch with a brute pack a week later. Well, I guess I'd be okay with that. It would be heartwarming just to see a Brute specific patch alone, and without a doubt they'd adjust his current equipment during that kind of patch. Its really only a matter of time at this point. _________________ Main Class: Brute (Devestator Spinfusor/Plasma Cannon/Extended Fractal/Safety Third/Potential Energy/Survival Pack)
Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:43 pm

Alpherior Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 pm Posts: 266 Location: Ontario, Canada	Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment? Wow... I just realized this was 8 pages. I was actually going to initially make a thread just pertaining to how s*** the Nova Colt was (which is still an issue imo). _________________ Main Class: Brute (Devestator Spinfusor/Plasma Cannon/Extended Fractal/Safety Third/Potential Energy/Survival Pack)
Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:09 pm

TheGargoyle Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:49 pm Posts: 266 Location: Northamptonshire, England	Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment? Honestly, I can't see much changing until the Brute Pack comes out (whenever that might be), at which time to make the pack appeal to the already minute Brute community it'll have to be pretty darn good. So I'm just waiting. _________________ Tribes: Ascend game-tag: "Gargoyle" Tribes-2 game-tag: "[BDH] Pain Reaver" Classes most frequently used: "Doombringer (DMB)" "Brute (BRT)" and "Juggernaut (JUG)"
Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:32 pm

Alpherior Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 pm Posts: 266 Location: Ontario, Canada	Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment? TheGargoyle wrote: Honestly, I can't see much changing until the Brute Pack comes out (whenever that might be), at which time to make the pack appeal to the already minute Brute community it'll have to be pretty darn good. So I'm just waiting. I just really wonder what his skins will be, because they will surely hint what his role is intended to be. So far all I can see in him now is guy who fights guys with the main objective of killing people being a brawler like a buff soldier and not a big slow wall like the other classes. _________________ Main Class: Brute (Devestator Spinfusor/Plasma Cannon/Extended Fractal/Safety Third/Potential Energy/Survival Pack)
Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:26 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment? Currently, the Brute seems to have only two roles: "Poor Juggernaut Substitute" and "Spinfusor Soldier who ate all the pies", neither are very good and the Brute kind of exists as a handicap messing-around class... something you'd use only if you wanted to challenge yourself. The only area the BRT really shines is indoor combat, although even then it is only about as good as a JUG is indoors, once again raising the question of "wait, why am I not playing JUG?" I agree with this thread, and these are my personal preferences for balance: Equipment - Buff - Neutral change - Nerf - Explanations Heavy Spinfusor: Yay! The exact change I proposed was implemented ^^ Thank you HiRez for finally giving BRTs atleast a little love. Automatic Shotgun: --Damage: 50x8 -> 60x8; the weapon is fairly well balanced, however its actual damage output is low compared to the positioning required to land the majority of pellets, especially compared to PTH and TCN shotguns. At point blank the Auto-Shotty should be better than the Chaingun and all automatics, but such is not the case --Generator damage: 40x8 -> 60x8; The Automatic Shotgun functions as the Brute's best option for Generhating (but only by a little), especially if using Fractal Grenades instead of Light Sticky Grenades, but the Automatic Shotgun still destroys the Generator quite slowly. Unless an anti-generator secondary is given to the BRT (like some kind of sidearm-ARX Buster) the Auto-Shotty needs to be better for this purpose. Nova Colt: --Change: Hitscan -> Projectile Bullet --Damage: 190-122 -> 240-170; with damage only marginally greater than the SN7 Silenced Pistol at close range (and worse than the SN7 at long range) the Nova Colt is rather anaemic for a Magnum 6-shooter. --RoF: -20%; this keeps its close range DPS the same as before the damage buff, so that the change improves long range combat only. --Reduce damage drop-off to match the SN7 Silenced Pistol; currently the Colt's damage drops off very quickly after a very short distance (likely put in place due to it being hitscan) --The damage (190 dmg on a 6-shot Nova Colt vs 170 dmg on a 16-shot SN7 Silenced Pistol), damage drop-off (only the Eagle/Sparrow and shotguns have worse drop-off range and severity), max range (the bullet doesn't even travel far enough to mesaure its accuracy in this test) and hitbox size (smallest in the game along with all the other hitscans, whereas automatics and the SN7 have hitboxes as large or larger than spinfusor discs) are gimped to hell BECAUSE it is hitscan, yet I find hitscan more difficult to use than projectile-bullets, making all the nerfs to its stats even worse. Fractal Grenade: --Time b/w Beams: -50%; this will make Fractals more consistent and less based on random chance as to whether it decides to insta-gibb a Heavy or let a Light saunter through unmolested. --Damage: -60%; this will nerf the DPS of Fractals down to 80% of what it is now. Currently the Brute is basically a fractal-dispenser, fractals need to be de-emphasised in order to improve the rest of his equipment. --Knockback: -60%; to match new damage. Light Sticky Grenade: --Carry capacity: 2 -> 3 --Stickies are a weapon that need to be spammed in order to be effective - the BRT already has a reasonably good Anti-armour primary, so if you can't spam the stickies they're almost not worth carrying. When using stickies you feel forced to use the Safety Third perk simply because 2 is just plain not enough. --The INF has no problems with this spam problem, as the INF gets 4 Sticky Grenades, however the BRT only gets 2 Light Sticky Grenades. --Another factor to consider when comparing the two grenades is that BRTs are non-stealthy and have low maneuverability, making it very difficult to deploy Light Stickies on targets (especially Base Turrets which are almost guaranteed to shoot the BRT 1-2 times as he attempts to deploy the Stickies.) --INFs on the other hand can cloak and have high maneuverability, making Sticky deployment not only far more effective and easier but also far less suicidally dangerous. Energy Pack: --Fully upgraded: +35 Energy -> +20 Energy & +20% Energy Regen. Rate; Max Energy matters little compared to energy regen rate for mobility; unless you've been sitting still for ages BRTs with this pack are no more agile than JUGs and DMBs. --If this is not an intended change I'd hope the BRT might get a Reactor Pack which gives +50% Energy Regeneration. Heavy Shield Pack: --Better shielding / Lower energy costs; the pack is not that effective due to the massive downtimes caused by how slow heavy armour energy regeneration is and how low heavy armour energy pools are. --The Raider's pack is far superior due to his higher energy pool and ability to regenerate his energy twice as fast. The Heavy Shield Pack needs improved shielding to compensate for its downtime and to match its "Heavy" title better, as it is nowhere near as effective as the RDR's version. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much! Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Tue May 15, 2012 8:44 am, edited 60 times in total.
Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:17 am

2kwik4u Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:03 pm Posts: 60	Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment? Nova Colt does 180 dmg? WTF? I was thinking about unlocking that gun because the Sentinel's Nova Colt does 350 dmg if I am correct? I thought it would be the same... not HALF damage!
Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:13 am

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ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

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fr0zenknife

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:27 pm
Posts: 110

Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

Serosen wrote:

I'd just like to see more damage on the Heavy Spinfusor and maybe some better shield efficiency.

How about making HSP give more energy regen? Around %20 at max level?

Because if you use HSP, you are giving up from EP's 35 energy AND your tiny little bit normal energy.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:53 pm

Alpherior

Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 pm
Posts: 266
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

wooser wrote:

After comparing the autoshotty and colt in target practice after using both in games today I guess I can say I'm a little more educated on things. The projectile bullets from autos, turns out, are barely larger than the hitscan laser and use the same hitboxes for enemies. The nova colt also has no spread on full speed fire, unlike the eagle pistol, which is nice.

Shotty:
Normalised spread! Every shotgun needs it to be honest.
No fall off. The weapon has a max range and a large spread, its range is very poor, may as well let the ~2 bullets that'll hit at max range deal more than 30 damage each. Even with this, it's still only 50 per pellet and not anything close to an SMG.

Colt:
Zoomed fire. Every weapon needs it, but this one really does. A lot.
Same fire rate as the eagle pistol. I get that the weapon has a high skill ceiling with good reward, but the skill floor is quite high in itself with the unforgiving clip size. Much less forgiving than the shotgun and its spread, too. I'd rather have this than grazing shots or a larger clip size.
Smaller model with small models on. I got no idea why this is the only weapon in the game that isn't effected by that setting, but it'd help to not have half the screen be your gun.

Yeah, that was one of my major complaints -- no scoping. Also, the clip, yes, you can't just spam fire in the general direction of your enemy because of it so you have to somehow try super hard to have the target reticule directly on the target. I wonder if there's a mouse smoothing setting... It would surely help with doing that.

_________________

Main Class: Brute
(Devestator Spinfusor/Plasma Cannon/Extended Fractal/Safety Third/Potential Energy/Survival Pack)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:01 pm

Alpherior

Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 pm
Posts: 266
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

Does anyone know when the next patch is going to be? I'm so hoping for things to be addressed I can't wait.

_________________

Main Class: Brute
(Devestator Spinfusor/Plasma Cannon/Extended Fractal/Safety Third/Potential Energy/Survival Pack)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:02 pm

Tamburlaine

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:13 am
Posts: 1859

Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

Alpherior wrote:

Does anyone know when the next patch is going to be? I'm so hoping for things to be addressed I can't wait.

Soon™.

For the last little while, they've been either doing them every week or every two weeks. If I wanted to bet money on this sort of thing, I'd say that we'll get nothing on Tuesday and a patch with a brute pack a week later.

_________________
oh god where does this link go how did it get here I am not good with computer

Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:07 pm

Alpherior

Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 pm
Posts: 266
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

Tamburlaine wrote:

Alpherior wrote:

Does anyone know when the next patch is going to be? I'm so hoping for things to be addressed I can't wait.

Well, I guess I'd be okay with that. It would be heartwarming just to see a Brute specific patch alone, and without a doubt they'd adjust his current equipment during that kind of patch. Its really only a matter of time at this point.

_________________

Main Class: Brute
(Devestator Spinfusor/Plasma Cannon/Extended Fractal/Safety Third/Potential Energy/Survival Pack)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:43 pm

Alpherior

Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 pm
Posts: 266
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

Wow... I just realized this was 8 pages. I was actually going to initially make a thread just pertaining to how s*** the Nova Colt was (which is still an issue imo).

_________________

Main Class: Brute
(Devestator Spinfusor/Plasma Cannon/Extended Fractal/Safety Third/Potential Energy/Survival Pack)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:09 pm

TheGargoyle

Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:49 pm
Posts: 266
Location: Northamptonshire, England

Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

Honestly, I can't see much changing until the Brute Pack comes out (whenever that might be), at which time to make the pack appeal to the already minute Brute community it'll have to be pretty darn good. So I'm just waiting.

_________________
Tribes: Ascend game-tag: "Gargoyle"
Tribes-2 game-tag: "[BDH] Pain Reaver"
Classes most frequently used: "Doombringer (DMB)" "Brute (BRT)" and "Juggernaut (JUG)"

Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:32 pm

Alpherior

Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:01 pm
Posts: 266
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

TheGargoyle wrote:

I just really wonder what his skins will be, because they will surely hint what his role is intended to be. So far all I can see in him now is guy who fights guys with the main objective of killing people being a brawler like a buff soldier and not a big slow wall like the other classes.

_________________

Main Class: Brute
(Devestator Spinfusor/Plasma Cannon/Extended Fractal/Safety Third/Potential Energy/Survival Pack)

Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:26 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

Currently, the Brute seems to have only two roles: "Poor Juggernaut Substitute" and "Spinfusor Soldier who ate all the pies", neither are very good and the Brute kind of exists as a handicap messing-around class... something you'd use only if you wanted to challenge yourself. The only area the BRT really shines is indoor combat, although even then it is only about as good as a JUG is indoors, once again raising the question of "wait, why am I not playing JUG?"

I agree with this thread, and these are my personal preferences for balance:

Equipment - Buff - Neutral change - Nerf - Explanations

Heavy Spinfusor:
Yay! The exact change I proposed was implemented ^^
Thank you HiRez for finally giving BRTs atleast a little love.

Automatic Shotgun:
--Damage: 50x8 -> 60x8; the weapon is fairly well balanced, however its actual damage output is low compared to the positioning required to land the majority of pellets, especially compared to PTH and TCN shotguns. At point blank the Auto-Shotty should be better than the Chaingun and all automatics, but such is not the case

--Generator damage: 40x8 -> 60x8; The Automatic Shotgun functions as the Brute's best option for Generhating (but only by a little), especially if using Fractal Grenades instead of Light Sticky Grenades, but the Automatic Shotgun still destroys the Generator quite slowly. Unless an anti-generator secondary is given to the BRT (like some kind of sidearm-ARX Buster) the Auto-Shotty needs to be better for this purpose.

Nova Colt:
--Change: Hitscan -> Projectile Bullet
--Damage: 190-122 -> 240-170; with damage only marginally greater than the SN7 Silenced Pistol at close range (and worse than the SN7 at long range) the Nova Colt is rather anaemic for a Magnum 6-shooter.
--RoF: -20%; this keeps its close range DPS the same as before the damage buff, so that the change improves long range combat only.
--Reduce damage drop-off to match the SN7 Silenced Pistol; currently the Colt's damage drops off very quickly after a very short distance (likely put in place due to it being hitscan)

--The damage (190 dmg on a 6-shot Nova Colt vs 170 dmg on a 16-shot SN7 Silenced Pistol), damage drop-off (only the Eagle/Sparrow and shotguns have worse drop-off range and severity), max range (the bullet doesn't even travel far enough to mesaure its accuracy in this test) and hitbox size (smallest in the game along with all the other hitscans, whereas automatics and the SN7 have hitboxes as large or larger than spinfusor discs) are gimped to hell BECAUSE it is hitscan, yet I find hitscan more difficult to use than projectile-bullets, making all the nerfs to its stats even worse.

Fractal Grenade:
--Time b/w Beams: -50%; this will make Fractals more consistent and less based on random chance as to whether it decides to insta-gibb a Heavy or let a Light saunter through unmolested.
--Damage: -60%; this will nerf the DPS of Fractals down to 80% of what it is now. Currently the Brute is basically a fractal-dispenser, fractals need to be de-emphasised in order to improve the rest of his equipment.
--Knockback: -60%; to match new damage.

Light Sticky Grenade:
--Carry capacity: 2 -> 3
--Stickies are a weapon that need to be spammed in order to be effective - the BRT already has a reasonably good Anti-armour primary, so if you can't spam the stickies they're almost not worth carrying. When using stickies you feel forced to use the Safety Third perk simply because 2 is just plain not enough.
--The INF has no problems with this spam problem, as the INF gets 4 Sticky Grenades, however the BRT only gets 2 Light Sticky Grenades.
--Another factor to consider when comparing the two grenades is that BRTs are non-stealthy and have low maneuverability, making it very difficult to deploy Light Stickies on targets (especially Base Turrets which are almost guaranteed to shoot the BRT 1-2 times as he attempts to deploy the Stickies.)
--INFs on the other hand can cloak and have high maneuverability, making Sticky deployment not only far more effective and easier but also far less suicidally dangerous.

Energy Pack:
--Fully upgraded: +35 Energy -> +20 Energy & +20% Energy Regen. Rate; Max Energy matters little compared to energy regen rate for mobility; unless you've been sitting still for ages BRTs with this pack are no more agile than JUGs and DMBs.

--If this is not an intended change I'd hope the BRT might get a Reactor Pack which gives +50% Energy Regeneration.

Heavy Shield Pack:
--Better shielding / Lower energy costs; the pack is not that effective due to the massive downtimes caused by how slow heavy armour energy regeneration is and how low heavy armour energy pools are.
--The Raider's pack is far superior due to his higher energy pool and ability to regenerate his energy twice as fast. The Heavy Shield Pack needs improved shielding to compensate for its downtime and to match its "Heavy" title better, as it is nowhere near as effective as the RDR's version.

_________________
This signature is green. I like the colour green.
Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green.
Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!

Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Tue May 15, 2012 8:44 am, edited 60 times in total.

Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:17 am

2kwik4u

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:03 pm
Posts: 60

Re: ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?

Nova Colt does 180 dmg? WTF? I was thinking about unlocking that gun because the Sentinel's Nova Colt does 350 dmg if I am correct? I thought it would be the same... not HALF damage!

Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:13 am

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ALL of Brute Weapons In Need of Adjustment?