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Physics Fixes (and server flag preperation).
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-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4887 Location: NA East	Physics Fixes (and server flag preperation). Where I think T:A needs to be post megapatch. I've listed them in order of importance. Will red out stuff that gets done, or is slighted to be done. --Fundamentals-- Movement Physics. As has been said in a few other threads, they need a rework from the ground up. Most are detailed well in this thread, pre hijack: viewtopic.php?f=313&t=61489&st=0&sk=t&sd=a and this one viewtopic.php?f=313&t=60180 Over all thrust increased. Energy pools increased (or consumption decreased). Energy pool differences favoring larger armors. Skiing friction and jetpack acceleration varied inversely favoring smaller armors. Thrust vectoring over air control: viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55227 No more artificial speed caps. More Impulse on weapon jumps. No more gravity cap. Armor Size Balance. Some of this stuff will be repeated because obviously movement physics is going to be different for the different armors. There are still HP related concerns with the armors though. Heavy armors are still far more susceptible to suffering the full DPS of automatics, which the other armors aren't, and this seems far too strong a neutralizing force outweighing the advantages of the larger armors. L/M/H Armor Resistance vs bullets 00%/5%/15% Or similar ratio. Or possibly something like this: viewtopic.php?p=851713#p851713 Armor Energy Pool Base from 100/100/80 to 100/120/130 (or similar ratio) Base energy regeneration should be the same across all armors. Speed per armor should be determined by acceleration, and friction, as mentioned above. Bullet resistances would basically be in direct ratio with HP. Base values should be exactly that. No arbitrary variance. Currently the RDR starts with 100 more hp than the other mids, and the DMB with 100 less HP than the other heavies. If a class is to have more or less HP or energy, it should be shown via his upgrades. Repairs. Repairs should be reworked to repair Hit Points per Second. Also, repair ability bonuses should be eliminated from turret upgrades, and replaced by something else, probably an attribute related to gen driven shields (covered soon). The time it takes to repair base assets should probably remain the same, but adjusted for other things, like vehicles and deployables. That takes care of the fundamentals, the rest of the changes are not only small in comparison, but some can't even be discussed, because these root changes will effect everything else. --Macro Balance-- Asset System. Gen Driven Shields. Every asset should have them. Each asset should have it's base HP reduced to compensate (keeping repair times palatable), making them far more difficult (regenerating) to take down while the gen is up, hence not as easy for a perched PTH to kill off a turret from range before a short run, but far easier to kill for anyone once gens are down. Obviously, the upgrade system would have to be reworked to stay in line with this, maybe with the upgrades increasing shields instead of HP so as not to effect repair times, with the HP/s matrix. Also keeping in line with gen function being more important than the upgrades themselves. Strikes (call-ins) should be dependent on Sensor function (and gens by re-curse), if not completely eliminated. I don't like them, and am not sure why they are there at all, but the ability to deny them, or just make them less prevalent would be clutch. If eliminated they could be replaced maybe with call in base assets, like base turrets, or radar. With repairing fixed (hp/s) Vehicle bases, and INV stations could easily be made destructible. Possibly working towards a global change of spawning out of class. This would also help repairing players to be palatable, if moving away from passive regen is every to be seriously considered. Sensors need love. For all the gripes about generator importance (which I think it's importance is fine, it's fragility is the problem, fixed by shields), the one thing I feel like people forget about is the value of sensors. I think some tweaks to sensors would go a long way, most of which returning to how they worked in T2 Sensor effect Static. Sensor range increase per upgrade buff. (would work best with larger maps, range not to exceed midfield, obviously) Sensor status constantly visible (either in static hud or objectives hud - not as necessary with static sensor effect) Notification of enemy sensor detection. (know when you're visible through walls) Or maybe something even along these lines viewtopic.php?f=313&t=53391 I don't like as many variables in certain functional elements, but not getting strikes until sensors are upgraded is a phenomenal way to promote team before self. The above changes are also suggested to pave the way for custom server flags, which I highly doubt will work in the current rules set, especially naked spawns. I think more in depth equipment changes would be needed for elimination of unlimited regen, but Active regen is probably the best first step away from the current system. CTF Scoring. viewtopic.php?p=824034#p824034 Basically revamping CTF scoring to reward you for playing CTF, and not so much for playing TDM with flags. --Micro Balance-- Equipment. Targeting laser. Just leave out inheritance leading until inheritance values are final. The impact of this item on the game is too great to not beta test as much as possible. Interaction: Covered well in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=313&t=53005&p=671385 which seems to have disappeared. Zoomed firing for all weapons now that everything is projectile and has falloff. If anything, it could be balanced by a lack of cross hair in the suit zoom, allowing certain weapons (the bxt1) to override your suit, and utilize the weapon scope. Most auto's (which are the main concern) would be lead by tracers, and balanced by the distance.[/color] I also agree with faster weapon switching, and fire when available on holding the trigger, though to a lesser degree of importance. Swaps: In light of recent equipment additions, I've reduced the swaps I think should happen. My old ideas are still in these threads: viewtopic.php?p=805945#p805945 viewtopic.php?p=768554#p768554 Basically the most crucial swap is the Falcon for the Eagle. I'd love to see two balanced auto/semi auto options for SLD2, with two explosive options for SLD1, and if the asset system is less broken, the TCN will be a bit OP with his best in class TCN4/Thumper, but primarily the SEN has no business having such an effective CQC weapon, and the SF is barely an option, due to the lack of range and versatility on the Eagle. That said, I'd still stand by my other list, in the above threads. Tweaks: Thumper/DX/Bolt launcher rounds need to be more visible/traceable. Thumper and HBL DMG and RoF adjusted to separate from SF and HSF (+DMG -RoF) Falloff DMG on ARX slightly increased by same ratio of MA bonus increase. Nitrons to self FFD. BXT1 to go very fast projectile. All discs should travel at the same base speed. Damage and reload variations are fine. LMG clip size to 70. Bolt Launcher Ammo count to 24 No motion sensor notification when destroyed. Plasma Gun clip size to 6, reload to 1.2s Jackal Interval increase to .75s, with no detonation until next round is ready. NJ5B clip to 20. Discs vs Launched Grenades: Should be some consistency with their comparisons here. Mostly adjustments for continuity, which are also inherently balancing. Weapon - Damage @ Interval = DPS ----------------From------------------------ HBL - 1050 @ 2.15 = 488 HSF - 1050 @ 2.15 = 456 _SF - 0910 @ 1.87 = 487 THP - 0910 @ 1.87 = 487 _BL - 0877 @ 1.87 = 469 MKD - 0840 @ 1.87 = 449 LSF - 0770 @ 1.63 = 472 TDX - 0770 @ 1.87 = 412 SSF - 0700 @ 1.63 = 429 -----------------To------------------------- HBL - 1050 @ 2.15 = 488 HSF - 0980 @ 2.00 = 490 THP - 0950 @ 2.00 = 475 _SF - 0910 @ 1.80 = 505 TDX - 0870 @ 1.80 = 483 MKD - 0860 @ 1.80 = 477 _BL - 0850 @ 1.80 = 472 LSF - 0770 @ 1.63 = 472 SSF - 0700 @ 1.63 = 429 Arranged by shot damage, and as you can see, interval falls in line for consistent DPS. Each damage is unique, and each equatable SF/Thump comparison has the thump class doing more damage, and lower RoF. I still feel the TDX and the SSF should be replaced by balanced plasma guns, and nixed all together. Also keep in mind this is considering the class weapon swaps, so the DX is buffed a bit for the TCN1, and the THP and SF are varied to share SLD1. LSF and BL both adjusted to keep them similar, but not have the BL out damage weapons in the hands of both heavies and mediums. Last edited by -AEnubis- on Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:34 am, edited 23 times in total.
Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:58 pm

frznvimes Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:09 pm Posts: 1381	Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks) Reposting my response and -AEnubis-'s reply in the other thread concerning the weapon swaps. Everything else I'm on board with as written. -AEnubis- wrote: SLD to have Thumper or Spinfusor for slot 1. Makes sense. SLD to have falcon or Eagle for Slot 2. Also makes sense. I've actually been having the same thought. TCN to have ThumperDX or TCN4 for slot 1. Not unless you increase the RoF to that of the light spinfusor. Better yet, give them a plasma gun. Do not, however, just give them an inferior weapon because they have turrets. SEN to have Sparrow or Nova Blaster for slot 2. Sounds good, gives an option to people who can't hit with the blaster. It would make them the only class without an automatic and the only class without a splash weapon though. In thinking about the class from the opposite direction I usually do, I think sentinels may actually be too focused on sniping (they don't try to do anything else because they can't). Make the bxt1 a projectile (same RoF between shots but no zoomed charge up), give them something like a spinfusor pistol or the like as a secondary option (I'm thinking 420 damage, reduced splash size, 1s reload. A weaker combat weapon than the nova blaster and other spinfusors, but it adds mobility), and add some routes with better cover to all maps - make them an actual chasing class. shrug just a thought. RDR to have Nova Colt or NJ4 for slot 2. The colt needs an increase in clip size+spare ammo, particularly the extra ammo if it's going on the raider, but aside from that yes. BRT to have AR or Auto Shotty for slot 2. Both of these weapons are the worst in their class atm and need attention. The heavy spinfusor is in the same boat. I suppose throwing most of the broken weapons onto one class makes a certain amount of sense though. DMB to have Heavy bolt or Sabers in slot 2. Do want. -AEnubis- wrote: The SEN could get the Sparrow since it's significantly faster firing than the Blaster, but not auto Sort of. With a macro it's automatic, but unlike projectiles it has accuracy degradation. Frankly I think they should just make hold-to-fire part of the game for these weapons and leave the accuracy loss. -AEnubis- wrote: I also still don't get why overall DPS is worse on the AR than any other auto. In either event, it's comparison is netrualized a bit by using it as a secondary for a heavy class. doombringer: heavy bolt launcher+chaingun. juggernaut: mortar+LMG. brute: heavy spinfusor+ar. Still kind of the short end of the stick. Reply: -AEnubis- wrote: Well in list with these swaps, is a LMG clip nerf, because I think it's a bit OP even for a heavy slot 2. The DMB is good, but most of his new tweaks make him a D power house, and that's it. I haven't noticed anyone taking full advantage of the BRT's shield pack, or the grotesque amount of energy his energy pack now gives him. It's almost like a slight nerf on the Fractals, and no one cares for him anymore. All spinfusors need to travel at the same speed. That fixes the Heavy one IMO, making BRT with the aforementioned gun swap, right back in the running. The bolt launcher to less total ammo, since it's a lights gun, but does same damage as thumper/spinfusor. He shouldn't be able to carry that much ammo in that armor. BXT1 to projectile is also in my current full list of changes, but is semi contingent on a ground up rework of movement. It's obviously better than the Phase Rifle, and stop short of complicated damage tweaks, or changes that make them more similar, moving that to projectile is easy, and makes the most sense, making it slightly more difficult to use in exchange for it's power and mobility. But yeah, we seem on the same page. Most of the needed changes are interlocking, so... my big list is in that thread I linked. [edit]OH, and about plasma: Yeah, totally agree, but it seems shotguns are HiRez's cheap plasma sub, so I'm not even going to mention them, until one is introduced. We've said it enough, they know how us vets feel. I'd be in favor of plasma over the TCN's thumper, and the INF's stealth spinfusor, to start.[/edit] _________________ vawlk wrote: I was telling my son today that back in the day, we could kill our teammates and he was like
Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:45 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4887 Location: NA East	Edit Additions. Added DPS rework of automatics. Added tweaks for adjusted automatics Added more color coding for the TL;DR crowd.
Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:29 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4887 Location: NA East	Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks) frznvimes wrote: brute: heavy spinfusor+ar. Still kind of the short end of the stick. In addition to the disc speed normalization, which would be a definite buff for BRT, I reworked the AR to have better DPS than all the SMGs (which seems as it should be), and nerfed the Falcon a bit, so it's actually more comparable to the eagle, and not the obvious go to. I was just avoiding the auto's rework, because it took a decent amount of math, trial and error last time. I forgot how experience makes things go faster the second time
Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:34 am

meimei Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:29 am Posts: 946	Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks) s*** ur hoping for alot changes lol
Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:20 am

meimei Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:29 am Posts: 946	Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks) yknow id settle for just FriendlyFire on, so ppl can start practicing with it^^;
Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:29 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4887 Location: NA East	Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks) Well, until some of these fundamentals are changed, things like FF and Spawning unloaded really won't work well. Both of which I would be okay with, but with movement being so broken, really nothing else matters.
Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:37 am

wooser Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:07 pm Posts: 695	Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks) Not sure on switching weapons between classes. Seems like way too much to expect. A DMB with both the bolt and chaingun sounds crazy to me, too. I like the idea of thumper/spin soldier and AR brute but techs getting the measly DX as a slot 1 instead of slot 2 is way off. Generally agreed on everything but the weapon move-arounds. There's very little chance hi-rez would ever do something like that, imo.
Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:43 am

hvcterr Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am Posts: 1567	Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks) I have a hard time with this type of thread: It ends up too un-focused with a lot of people having multiple cross-debates over mostly-unrelated changes. _________________ Did you know you can disable annoying signatures? Look under Board Preferences >> Edit Display Options.
Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:06 am

SneakyTouchy Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:06 pm Posts: 438	Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks) You can throw down suggestion after suggestion but without any reasonable explanation as to WHY these changes are needed, we are left with just another nonconstructive and unrealistic wishlist. Too many statements, not enough proof or analogy. I could easily defeat your argument by saying Thrust levels are spot on, energy pools are sufficient, weapon damages and armors are currently set as intended. I don't need to prove something against a statement that hasn't been supported with evidence, so in a sense this is just going to be another giant pointless argument. Another thing to keep in mind; there really is no need for perfection in balance. It is OK to have some classes better than others, in an overall sense, not just for each individual niche. However, things can get to a point where playing against a particular class becomes routinely annoying to a majority. This is when changes need to occur. The SABRE is somewhat stupid and annoying, techs with thumpers, and the jumper's nitron... But as far as power goes, there really isn't any need for damage or armor adjustment, at least not yet, and there probably won't be too many adjustments in the future. Hi-rez needs to look at statistical data and find if particular classes are being played too much, or resulting in too much effectiveness and adjust from there, starting with core rules and weapon functions. Our opinions derived from our own observations will never be as accurate as recorded statistical data, so asking for it is not constructive.
Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:31 am

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Physics Fixes (and server flag preperation).

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-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4887
Location: NA East

Physics Fixes (and server flag preperation).

Where I think T:A needs to be post megapatch.

I've listed them in order of importance. Will red out stuff that gets done, or is slighted to be done.

--Fundamentals--

Movement Physics.

As has been said in a few other threads, they need a rework from the ground up.
Most are detailed well in this thread, pre hijack:
viewtopic.php?f=313&t=61489&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

and this one

viewtopic.php?f=313&t=60180

Over all thrust increased.
Energy pools increased (or consumption decreased).
Energy pool differences favoring larger armors.
Skiing friction and jetpack acceleration varied inversely favoring smaller armors.
Thrust vectoring over air control: viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55227
No more artificial speed caps.
More Impulse on weapon jumps.
No more gravity cap.

Armor Size Balance.

Some of this stuff will be repeated because obviously movement physics is going to be different for the different armors. There are still HP related concerns with the armors though.

Heavy armors are still far more susceptible to suffering the full DPS of automatics, which the other armors aren't, and this seems far too strong a neutralizing force outweighing the advantages of the larger armors.

L/M/H

Armor Resistance vs bullets
00%/5%/15%

Or similar ratio.

Or possibly something like this:

viewtopic.php?p=851713#p851713

Armor Energy Pool Base
from 100/100/80 to 100/120/130 (or similar ratio)

Base energy regeneration should be the same across all armors.
Speed per armor should be determined by acceleration, and friction, as mentioned above.
Bullet resistances would basically be in direct ratio with HP.
Base values should be exactly that. No arbitrary variance**.

**Currently the RDR starts with 100 more hp than the other mids, and the DMB with 100 less HP than the other heavies. If a class is to have more or less HP or energy, it should be shown via his upgrades.

Repairs.

Repairs should be reworked to repair Hit Points per Second. Also, repair ability bonuses should be eliminated from turret upgrades, and replaced by something else, probably an attribute related to gen driven shields (covered soon).

The time it takes to repair base assets should probably remain the same, but adjusted for other things, like vehicles and deployables.

That takes care of the fundamentals, the rest of the changes are not only small in comparison, but some can't even be discussed, because these root changes will effect everything else.

--Macro Balance--

Asset System.

Gen Driven Shields. Every asset should have them. Each asset should have it's base HP reduced to compensate (keeping repair times palatable), making them far more difficult (regenerating) to take down while the gen is up, hence not as easy for a perched PTH to kill off a turret from range before a short run, but far easier to kill for anyone once gens are down.

Obviously, the upgrade system would have to be reworked to stay in line with this, maybe with the upgrades increasing shields instead of HP so as not to effect repair times, with the HP/s matrix. Also keeping in line with gen function being more important than the upgrades themselves.

Strikes (call-ins) should be dependent on Sensor function (and gens by re-curse), if not completely eliminated. I don't like them, and am not sure why they are there at all, but the ability to deny them, or just make them less prevalent would be clutch. If eliminated they could be replaced maybe with call in base assets, like base turrets, or radar.

With repairing fixed (hp/s) Vehicle bases, and INV stations could easily be made destructible. Possibly working towards a global change of spawning out of class. This would also help repairing players to be palatable, if moving away from passive regen is every to be seriously considered.

Sensors need love. For all the gripes about generator importance (which I think it's importance is fine, it's fragility is the problem, fixed by shields), the one thing I feel like people forget about is the value of sensors. I think some tweaks to sensors would go a long way, most of which returning to how they worked in T2

Sensor effect Static.
Sensor range increase per upgrade buff. (would work best with larger maps, range not to exceed midfield, obviously)
Sensor status constantly visible (either in static hud or objectives hud - not as necessary with static sensor effect)
Notification of enemy sensor detection. (know when you're visible through walls)

Or maybe something even along these lines viewtopic.php?f=313&t=53391

I don't like as many variables in certain functional elements, but not getting strikes until sensors are upgraded is a phenomenal way to promote team before self.

The above changes are also suggested to pave the way for custom server flags, which I highly doubt will work in the current rules set, especially naked spawns. I think more in depth equipment changes would be needed for elimination of unlimited regen, but Active regen is probably the best first step away from the current system.

CTF Scoring.

viewtopic.php?p=824034#p824034

Basically revamping CTF scoring to reward you for playing CTF, and not so much for playing TDM with flags.

--Micro Balance--

Equipment.

Targeting laser. Just leave out inheritance leading until inheritance values are final. The impact of this item on the game is too great to not beta test as much as possible.

Interaction:

Covered well in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=313&t=53005&p=671385 which seems to have disappeared.

Zoomed firing for all weapons now that everything is projectile and has falloff. If anything, it could be balanced by a lack of cross hair in the suit zoom, allowing certain weapons (the bxt1) to override your suit, and utilize the weapon scope. Most auto's (which are the main concern) would be lead by tracers, and balanced by the distance.[/color]

I also agree with faster weapon switching, and fire when available on holding the trigger, though to a lesser degree of importance.

Swaps:

In light of recent equipment additions, I've reduced the swaps I think should happen. My old ideas are still in these threads:

viewtopic.php?p=805945#p805945

viewtopic.php?p=768554#p768554

Basically the most crucial swap is the Falcon for the Eagle.

I'd love to see two balanced auto/semi auto options for SLD2, with two explosive options for SLD1, and if the asset system is less broken, the TCN will be a bit OP with his best in class TCN4/Thumper, but primarily the SEN has no business having such an effective CQC weapon, and the SF is barely an option, due to the lack of range and versatility on the Eagle. That said, I'd still stand by my other list, in the above threads.

Tweaks:

Thumper/DX/Bolt launcher rounds need to be more visible/traceable.
Thumper and HBL DMG and RoF adjusted to separate from SF and HSF (+DMG -RoF)
Falloff DMG on ARX slightly increased by same ratio of MA bonus increase.
Nitrons to self FFD.
BXT1 to go very fast projectile.
All discs should travel at the same base speed. Damage and reload variations are fine.
LMG clip size to 70.
Bolt Launcher Ammo count to 24
No motion sensor notification when destroyed.
Plasma Gun clip size to 6, reload to 1.2s
Jackal Interval increase to .75s, with no detonation until next round is ready.
NJ5B clip to 20.

Discs vs Launched Grenades:

Should be some consistency with their comparisons here. Mostly adjustments for continuity, which are also inherently balancing.

Weapon - Damage @ Interval = DPS
----------------From------------------------
HBL - 1050 @ 2.15 = 488
HSF - 1050 @ 2.15 = 456
_SF - 0910 @ 1.87 = 487
THP - 0910 @ 1.87 = 487
_BL - 0877 @ 1.87 = 469
MKD - 0840 @ 1.87 = 449
LSF - 0770 @ 1.63 = 472
TDX - 0770 @ 1.87 = 412
SSF - 0700 @ 1.63 = 429

-----------------To-------------------------
HBL - 1050 @ 2.15 = 488
HSF - 0980 @ 2.00 = 490
THP - 0950 @ 2.00 = 475
_SF - 0910 @ 1.80 = 505
TDX - 0870 @ 1.80 = 483
MKD - 0860 @ 1.80 = 477
_BL - 0850 @ 1.80 = 472
LSF - 0770 @ 1.63 = 472
SSF - 0700 @ 1.63 = 429

Arranged by shot damage, and as you can see, interval falls in line for consistent DPS. Each damage is unique, and each equatable SF/Thump comparison has the thump class doing more damage, and lower RoF. I still feel the TDX and the SSF should be replaced by balanced plasma guns, and nixed all together. Also keep in mind this is considering the class weapon swaps, so the DX is buffed a bit for the TCN1, and the THP and SF are varied to share SLD1. LSF and BL both adjusted to keep them similar, but not have the BL out damage weapons in the hands of both heavies and mediums.

Last edited by -AEnubis- on Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:34 am, edited 23 times in total.

Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:58 pm

frznvimes

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:09 pm
Posts: 1381

Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks)

Reposting my response and -AEnubis-'s reply in the other thread concerning the weapon swaps. Everything else I'm on board with as written.

-AEnubis- wrote:

SLD to have Thumper or Spinfusor for slot 1. Makes sense.
SLD to have falcon or Eagle for Slot 2. Also makes sense. I've actually been having the same thought.
TCN to have ThumperDX or TCN4 for slot 1. Not unless you increase the RoF to that of the light spinfusor. Better yet, give them a plasma gun. Do not, however, just give them an inferior weapon because they have turrets.
SEN to have Sparrow or Nova Blaster for slot 2. Sounds good, gives an option to people who can't hit with the blaster. It would make them the only class without an automatic and the only class without a splash weapon though. In thinking about the class from the opposite direction I usually do, I think sentinels may actually be too focused on sniping (they don't try to do anything else because they can't). Make the bxt1 a projectile (same RoF between shots but no zoomed charge up), give them something like a spinfusor pistol or the like as a secondary option (I'm thinking 420 damage, reduced splash size, 1s reload. A weaker combat weapon than the nova blaster and other spinfusors, but it adds mobility), and add some routes with better cover to all maps - make them an actual chasing class. *shrug* just a thought.
RDR to have Nova Colt or NJ4 for slot 2. The colt needs an increase in clip size+spare ammo, particularly the extra ammo if it's going on the raider, but aside from that yes.
BRT to have AR or Auto Shotty for slot 2. Both of these weapons are the worst in their class atm and need attention. The heavy spinfusor is in the same boat. I suppose throwing most of the broken weapons onto one class makes a certain amount of sense though.
DMB to have Heavy bolt or Sabers in slot 2. Do want.

-AEnubis- wrote:

The SEN could get the Sparrow since it's significantly faster firing than the Blaster, but not auto

Sort of. With a macro it's automatic, but unlike projectiles it has accuracy degradation. Frankly I think they should just make hold-to-fire part of the game for these weapons and leave the accuracy loss.

-AEnubis- wrote:

I also still don't get why overall DPS is worse on the AR than any other auto. In either event, it's comparison is netrualized a bit by using it as a secondary for a heavy class.

doombringer: heavy bolt launcher+chaingun.
juggernaut: mortar+LMG.
brute: heavy spinfusor+ar.
Still kind of the short end of the stick.

Reply:

-AEnubis- wrote:

Well in list with these swaps, is a LMG clip nerf, because I think it's a bit OP even for a heavy slot 2. The DMB is good, but most of his new tweaks make him a D power house, and that's it.

I haven't noticed anyone taking full advantage of the BRT's shield pack, or the grotesque amount of energy his energy pack now gives him. It's almost like a slight nerf on the Fractals, and no one cares for him anymore. All spinfusors need to travel at the same speed. That fixes the Heavy one IMO, making BRT with the aforementioned gun swap, right back in the running.

The bolt launcher to less total ammo, since it's a lights gun, but does same damage as thumper/spinfusor. He shouldn't be able to carry that much ammo in that armor.

BXT1 to projectile is also in my current full list of changes, but is semi contingent on a ground up rework of movement. It's obviously better than the Phase Rifle, and stop short of complicated damage tweaks, or changes that make them more similar, moving that to projectile is easy, and makes the most sense, making it slightly more difficult to use in exchange for it's power and mobility.

But yeah, we seem on the same page. Most of the needed changes are interlocking, so... my big list is in that thread I linked.

[edit]OH, and about plasma: Yeah, totally agree, but it seems shotguns are HiRez's cheap plasma sub, so I'm not even going to mention them, until one is introduced. We've said it enough, they know how us vets feel. I'd be in favor of plasma over the TCN's thumper, and the INF's stealth spinfusor, to start.[/edit]

_________________

vawlk wrote:

I was telling my son today that back in the day, we could kill our teammates and he was like

Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:45 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4887
Location: NA East

Edit Additions.

Added DPS rework of automatics.
Added tweaks for adjusted automatics
Added more color coding for the TL;DR crowd.

Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:29 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4887
Location: NA East

Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks)

frznvimes wrote:

brute: heavy spinfusor+ar.
Still kind of the short end of the stick.

In addition to the disc speed normalization, which would be a definite buff for BRT, I reworked the AR to have better DPS than all the SMGs (which seems as it should be), and nerfed the Falcon a bit, so it's actually more comparable to the eagle, and not the obvious go to.

I was just avoiding the auto's rework, because it took a decent amount of math, trial and error last time. I forgot how experience makes things go faster the second time

Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:34 am

meimei

Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:29 am
Posts: 946

Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks)

s*** ur hoping for alot changes lol

Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:20 am

meimei

Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:29 am
Posts: 946

Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks)

yknow id settle for just FriendlyFire on, so ppl can start practicing with it^^;

Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:29 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4887
Location: NA East

Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks)

Well, until some of these fundamentals are changed, things like FF and Spawning unloaded really won't work well. Both of which I would be okay with, but with movement being so broken, really nothing else matters.

Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:37 am

wooser

Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:07 pm
Posts: 695

Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks)

Not sure on switching weapons between classes. Seems like way too much to expect. A DMB with both the bolt and chaingun sounds crazy to me, too. I like the idea of thumper/spin soldier and AR brute but techs getting the measly DX as a slot 1 instead of slot 2 is way off.

Generally agreed on everything but the weapon move-arounds. There's very little chance hi-rez would ever do something like that, imo.

Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:43 am

hvcterr

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 1567

Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks)

I have a hard time with this type of thread: It ends up too un-focused with a lot of people having multiple cross-debates over mostly-unrelated changes.

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Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:06 am

SneakyTouchy

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:06 pm
Posts: 438

Re: Needed Fundamental changes for 0.1.789 (and some tweaks)

You can throw down suggestion after suggestion but without any reasonable explanation as to WHY these changes are needed, we are left with just another nonconstructive and unrealistic wishlist.

Too many statements, not enough proof or analogy. I could easily defeat your argument by saying Thrust levels are spot on, energy pools are sufficient, weapon damages and armors are currently set as intended. I don't need to prove something against a statement that hasn't been supported with evidence, so in a sense this is just going to be another giant pointless argument.

Another thing to keep in mind; there really is no need for perfection in balance. It is OK to have some classes better than others, in an overall sense, not just for each individual niche. However, things can get to a point where playing against a particular class becomes routinely annoying to a majority. This is when changes need to occur. The SABRE is somewhat stupid and annoying, techs with thumpers, and the jumper's nitron... But as far as power goes, there really isn't any need for damage or armor adjustment, at least not yet, and there probably won't be too many adjustments in the future. Hi-rez needs to look at statistical data and find if particular classes are being played too much, or resulting in too much effectiveness and adjust from there, starting with core rules and weapon functions. Our opinions derived from our own observations will never be as accurate as recorded statistical data, so asking for it is not constructive.

Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:31 am

Forum rules

Physics Fixes (and server flag preperation).