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please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP
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CreativeConstraints Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:17 am Posts: 1193	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP OP does a real nice job of summing up the worst issues with the game - 1000% agreed on almost everything. Let's make this another 50 page thread of unanimous agreement for the devs ignore and not even bother comentating!
Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:52 pm

Kaldurenik Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:47 pm Posts: 52	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP I agree with all the things said here. Its abit strange that they wont fix these issues... Its not like they have someone beating them on the head to release it. Hell they are even allowing people to buy stuff in a beta. But then again... overall i have found that the devs are way to quiet.
Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:54 pm

SmoothP Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am Posts: 1583	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP TheEschaton wrote: It would appear that they have some deficiency in the physics programming department at HiRez since they are looking for an Unreal programmer with physics knowledge, but as a community I think we could understand if that was the case and perhaps we could help them codge together something that worked until they got a real professional. iHaTehNameGame has already done the work for them... Subject: Thrust Vectoring Thread iHaTehNameGame wrote: .... .... The current jetpack system needs fixing, and I think there needs to be some serious discussion put towards what exactly needs to be fixed and the different ways they might be implemented, along with exploration into new ways the jetpack might be used. Number one on the list of things to fix is the speed related acceleration cap that's been imposed on jetpacks. The cap has done wonders at making movement un-intuitive and complex. Players that fall at a speed greater than ~72kph will never recover height; which means that players have even less chances to avoid getting thrown into generator pits. Jetting up is not the most efficient way to gain height; juggling the forward and back keys is. Code: // Intended player movement var bool bIsUpJetting; var bool bPushingForward; var bool bPushingBack; var bool bPushingLeft; var bool bPushingRight; function vector HandleJetpack(float DeltaTime) { local vector X,Y,Z, NewAccel; local vector StrafeJet, UpJet; local float UpJetAcceleration, StrafeJetAcceleration; NewAccel = vect(0,0,0); StrafeJet = vect(0,0,0); UpJet = vect(0,0,0); UpJetAcceleration = 0.0; StrafeJetAcceleration = 0.0; // If overheating, dont allow jetpack if(FFPawn(Pawn).bOverheatSequenceIsActive == true) { FFPawn(Pawn).DeactivateJetpackEffects(); } else { // Setup Jetpack Thrust Directions // Setup Strafe Jet if(bPushingForward) StrafeJet.X += 1.0; if(bPushingBack) StrafeJet.X -= 1.0; if(bPushingLeft) StrafeJet.Y -= 1.0; if(bPushingRight) StrafeJet.Y += 1.0; // Setup Up Jet if(bIsUpJetting) { UpJet.Z += 1.0; } StrafeJet = normal(StrafeJet); UpJet = normal(UpJet); // Setup Jetpack Acceleration Values // Get Gravity UpJetAcceleration = 2.0 * Pawn.GetGravityZ(); // Oppose Gravity UpJetAcceleration = -1.0; // Add constant Jet Aceleration Value UpJetAcceleration += FFPawn(Pawn).JetAcceleration; StrafeJetAcceleration = FFPawn(Pawn).JetAcceleration; // Setup Jetpack Thrust Vectors StrafeJet = StrafeJetAcceleration; UpJet = UpJetAcceleration; // Setup orientation matrix if(bPawnRelativeThrusting) GetAxes(Pawn.Rotation,X,Y,Z); else GetAxes(Rotation,X,Y,Z); // Setup new acceleration NewAccel = StrafeJet.XX + StrafeJet.YY + UpJet.ZZ; if((NewAccel dot NewAccel) != 0) { FFPawn(Pawn).ActivateJetpackEffects(); // Accumulate Heat From Jetpack FFPawn(Pawn).AccumJetpackHeat(DeltaTime); } else { FFPawn(Pawn).DeactivateJetpackEffects(); } } return NewAccel; } Anyhow, anything related to jetpack movement should be discussed here; the weird speed accel cap is only one issue out of many. _________________ Give a man a pistol, and he'll play for a day... Teach a man to disc, and he'll stay devoted forever. Loadouts 2.0 - Directional Jets - True Inheritance - Cosine Splash - Active Regen - Abolish Credits Last edited by SmoothP on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:56 pm

root Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:30 pm Posts: 856	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP TheEschaton wrote: The problem with that perception of HiRez is that it's mostly wrong. They actually are usually very responsive, and it has been noted multiple times that concepts born on these forums have been implemented in-game (the infiltrator speed flicker being only the latest and most obvious example). It's interesting which concepts make the cut. They either have to be completely balance-breaking (hit-scan, infil cloaking) or monetarily beneficial (loadouts). TheEschaton wrote: That's why it's so frustrating that they're being unresponsive on these key issues. It would appear that they have some deficiency in the physics programming department at HiRez since they are looking for an Unreal programmer with physics knowledge, but as a community I think we could understand if that was the case and perhaps we could help them codge together something that worked until they got a real professional. If they would communicate these things, sure. But they've refused to even acknowledge that these core issues are, indeed, issues. People have put a TON of their own time into proposing fixes and/or proving that a problem exists. As I said before, it's offensive that they have not been more communicative with the community. TheEschaton wrote: The 100% inheritance thread isn't really helping this, regardless of its length. I've been in there several times and the vast majority of posts I see are hyperbole, rhetoric without basis, and vapid beyond belief. Surely there are some great arguments in there, but they are rapidly buried. Worse, the community is fractured around the idea of 100% inheritance AFAIK. It is not as easy a design decision to make as it might seem, and as this post so clearly illustrates, inheritance is only a part of the larger physics problems this game has. There's math in there somewhere, but inheritance can't be "proven" using math... it's really based on feel of the game. TheEschaton wrote: They've already pretty much abandoned the iterative design philosophy for our sake, ever since the mega patch. Let's cut them a little slack while simultaneously not giving up on these key issues. We may have to compromise on some of them, but any move toward a physics as envisioned by this thread would be an improvement over the old smoke and mirrors. There shouldn't be a compromise when it comes to BALANCE. I can understand compromising on, say, inheritance or mid-air directional movement (no cost movement), because everyone has to deal with these, and it doesn't necessarily give one person an advantage (for the sake of argument). You can't compromise on balance issues.
Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:57 pm

TheEschaton Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm Posts: 2941 Steam Gamer Name: LeadProphet	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP Shrymp wrote: stuff. Hit-scan is not balance breaking. Cloak speed cap is not balance-breaking. I think the game is actually, in terms of balance, in a very nearly balanced state right now. The issues of physics we have here aren't about balance, to me. They are about making the game feel right to people when they play it, and not just vets. It's going to feel WEIRD to people that we can ski with zero friction, and that jetpacking has so many stupid little quirks, and so on. It's going to feel AWESOME to anyone who picks this game up when they are able to more purposefully control their fate using the physics outlined in the OP here. That's what this is about, come to think of it. This is about making players feel in control, not balance. In console games a common debate is the "sloppiness" of a given games' controls. A game can be great, but if it's based on quick reaction timing gameplay and it has controls that cause your avatar to respond slowly or with other kinds of weirdness, then the game WILL get panned no matter how balanced it is. Tribes controls right now, especially in the correctly-sized maps, feel sloppy like this. THIS is why it is important to change this stuff now. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but this is really just to try to keep the thread on-topic and let HiRez know that one more random customer has thought this through and believes the current system needs to change as outlined here. _________________ Carrion (in-game name)
Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:11 pm

root Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:30 pm Posts: 856	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP I disagree that hitscan was not balance breaking. It certainly was, given Tribes' playstyle being fast and open. There were tons of threads on this, but introducing projectile bullets seriously helped alleviate a lot of the frustration. Otherwise, I agree with you.
Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:17 pm

SickSpider Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:41 am Posts: 362 Location: BC, Canada	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP Agreed with all. The jetpack, still don't have air control... jetting right should take me right! right? Guess not. _________________ You want your flag back!? GO GET IT! I prefer to try a MAD and miss than pulling a strike and succeed! Sick montages(!) Weekly/Monthly BPS fun (blushing)
Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:23 pm

Razith Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:29 pm Posts: 78	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP Posting for my support. Every single item in OP needs to be addressed for me to even consider giving you any of my time or my money, or to even recommend this game to a friend.
Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:26 pm

AriesGodOfWar Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:19 pm Posts: 137	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP OP I concur. Lets build the house from the ground up. Nail Physics and Jet packs then work on everything else. _________________ RootbeerAlamode wrote: If a pathfinder and a mortar leave a train station at the same time....
Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:36 pm

Schottingham Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm Posts: 644	Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP TheEschaton wrote: This is about making players feel in control, not balance. In console games a common debate is the "sloppiness" of a given games' controls. A game can be great, but if it's based on quick reaction timing gameplay and it has controls that cause your avatar to respond slowly or with other kinds of weirdness, then the game WILL get panned no matter how balanced it is. Tribes controls right now, especially in the correctly-sized maps, feel sloppy like this. I know it's not an FPS, but F-Zero GX for gamecube has about the most responsive controls I have ever used in a video game. If you mess up, you know it was your fault. The game is brutally fast, but as a friend of mine put it, "it gives you the tools you need", so the potential for developing extremely high skill is there. I want that feeling for Tribes. I don't want to feel like I am fighting the quirks and limits of the physics model every step of the way. Give us something simple and robust (see OP, SmoothP's post), and tweak parameters (mass, thrust, energy pool) from there. _________________ - Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video) - Remove regen, bring back health kits - Buff explosive jumping - 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)
Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:49 pm

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please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

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CreativeConstraints

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:17 am
Posts: 1193

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

OP does a real nice job of summing up the worst issues with the game - 1000% agreed on almost everything.

Let's make this another 50 page thread of unanimous agreement for the devs ignore and not even bother comentating!

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:52 pm

Kaldurenik

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:47 pm
Posts: 52

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

I agree with all the things said here. Its abit strange that they wont fix these issues... Its not like they have someone beating them on the head to release it. Hell they are even allowing people to buy stuff in a beta.

But then again... overall i have found that the devs are way to quiet.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:54 pm

SmoothP

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:28 am
Posts: 1583

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

TheEschaton wrote:

It would appear that they have some deficiency in the physics programming department at HiRez since they are looking for an Unreal programmer with physics knowledge, but as a community I think we could understand if that was the case and perhaps we could help them codge together something that worked until they got a real professional.

iHaTehNameGame has already done the work for them...

Subject: Thrust Vectoring Thread

iHaTehNameGame wrote:

....

The current jetpack system needs fixing, and I think there needs to be some serious discussion put towards what exactly needs to be fixed and the different ways they might be implemented, along with exploration into new ways the jetpack might be used.

Number one on the list of things to fix is the speed related acceleration cap that's been imposed on jetpacks. The cap has done wonders at making movement un-intuitive and complex. Players that fall at a speed greater than ~72kph will never recover height; which means that players have even less chances to avoid getting thrown into generator pits. Jetting up is not the most efficient way to gain height; juggling the forward and back keys is.

Code:

  // Intended player movement
var bool bIsUpJetting;
var bool bPushingForward;
var bool bPushingBack;
var bool bPushingLeft;
var bool bPushingRight;

function vector HandleJetpack(float DeltaTime)
{
  local vector X,Y,Z, NewAccel;
  local vector StrafeJet, UpJet;
  local float UpJetAcceleration, StrafeJetAcceleration;
  NewAccel = vect(0,0,0);
  StrafeJet = vect(0,0,0);
  UpJet = vect(0,0,0);
  UpJetAcceleration = 0.0;
  StrafeJetAcceleration = 0.0;
  
    // If overheating, dont allow jetpack
  if(FFPawn(Pawn).bOverheatSequenceIsActive == true)
  {
    FFPawn(Pawn).DeactivateJetpackEffects();
  }
  else
  {
    // Setup Jetpack Thrust Directions
      // Setup Strafe Jet
    if(bPushingForward)
      StrafeJet.X += 1.0;

    if(bPushingBack)
      StrafeJet.X -= 1.0;

    if(bPushingLeft)
      StrafeJet.Y -= 1.0;

    if(bPushingRight)
      StrafeJet.Y += 1.0;
    
      // Setup Up Jet
    if(bIsUpJetting)
    {
      UpJet.Z += 1.0;
    }
    
    StrafeJet = normal(StrafeJet);
    UpJet = normal(UpJet);
    
    // Setup Jetpack Acceleration Values
      // Get Gravity
    UpJetAcceleration = 2.0 * Pawn.GetGravityZ();
      // Oppose Gravity
    UpJetAcceleration *= -1.0;
      // Add constant Jet Aceleration Value
    UpJetAcceleration += FFPawn(Pawn).JetAcceleration;
    
    StrafeJetAcceleration = FFPawn(Pawn).JetAcceleration;
    
    // Setup Jetpack Thrust Vectors
    StrafeJet *= StrafeJetAcceleration;
    UpJet *= UpJetAcceleration;
    
      // Setup orientation matrix
    if(bPawnRelativeThrusting)
      GetAxes(Pawn.Rotation,X,Y,Z);
    else
      GetAxes(Rotation,X,Y,Z);
    
      // Setup new acceleration
    NewAccel = StrafeJet.X*X + StrafeJet.Y*Y + UpJet.Z*Z;
    
    if((NewAccel dot NewAccel) != 0)
    {
      FFPawn(Pawn).ActivateJetpackEffects();
      
        // Accumulate Heat From Jetpack
      FFPawn(Pawn).AccumJetpackHeat(DeltaTime);
    }
    else
    {
      FFPawn(Pawn).DeactivateJetpackEffects();
    }
  }
  return NewAccel;
}

Anyhow, anything related to jetpack movement should be discussed here; the weird speed accel cap is only one issue out of many.

_________________
Give a man a pistol, and he'll play for a day... Teach a man to disc, and he'll stay devoted forever.
Loadouts 2.0 - Directional Jets - True Inheritance - Cosine Splash - Active Regen - Abolish Credits

Last edited by SmoothP on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:56 pm

root

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:30 pm
Posts: 856

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

TheEschaton wrote:

The problem with that perception of HiRez is that it's mostly wrong. They actually are usually very responsive, and it has been noted multiple times that concepts born on these forums have been implemented in-game (the infiltrator speed flicker being only the latest and most obvious example).

It's interesting which concepts make the cut. They either have to be completely balance-breaking (hit-scan, infil cloaking) or monetarily beneficial (loadouts).

TheEschaton wrote:

That's why it's so frustrating that they're being unresponsive on these key issues. It would appear that they have some deficiency in the physics programming department at HiRez since they are looking for an Unreal programmer with physics knowledge, but as a community I think we could understand if that was the case and perhaps we could help them codge together something that worked until they got a real professional.

If they would communicate these things, sure. But they've refused to even acknowledge that these core issues are, indeed, issues.
People have put a TON of their own time into proposing fixes and/or proving that a problem exists. As I said before, it's offensive that they have not been more communicative with the community.

TheEschaton wrote:

The 100% inheritance thread isn't really helping this, regardless of its length. I've been in there several times and the vast majority of posts I see are hyperbole, rhetoric without basis, and vapid beyond belief. Surely there are some great arguments in there, but they are rapidly buried. Worse, the community is fractured around the idea of 100% inheritance AFAIK. It is not as easy a design decision to make as it might seem, and as this post so clearly illustrates, inheritance is only a part of the larger physics problems this game has.

There's math in there somewhere, but inheritance can't be "proven" using math... it's really based on feel of the game.

TheEschaton wrote:

They've already pretty much abandoned the iterative design philosophy for our sake, ever since the mega patch. Let's cut them a little slack while simultaneously not giving up on these key issues. We may have to compromise on some of them, but any move toward a physics as envisioned by this thread would be an improvement over the old smoke and mirrors.

There shouldn't be a compromise when it comes to BALANCE. I can understand compromising on, say, inheritance or mid-air directional movement (no cost movement), because everyone has to deal with these, and it doesn't necessarily give one person an advantage (for the sake of argument).

You can't compromise on balance issues.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:57 pm

TheEschaton

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm
Posts: 2941
Steam Gamer Name: LeadProphet

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

Shrymp wrote:

stuff.

Hit-scan is not balance breaking. Cloak speed cap is not balance-breaking. I think the game is actually, in terms of balance, in a very nearly balanced state right now. The issues of physics we have here aren't about balance, to me. They are about making the game feel right to people when they play it, and not just vets. It's going to feel WEIRD to people that we can ski with zero friction, and that jetpacking has so many stupid little quirks, and so on.

It's going to feel AWESOME to anyone who picks this game up when they are able to more purposefully control their fate using the physics outlined in the OP here. That's what this is about, come to think of it.

This is about making players feel in control, not balance.

In console games a common debate is the "sloppiness" of a given games' controls. A game can be great, but if it's based on quick reaction timing gameplay and it has controls that cause your avatar to respond slowly or with other kinds of weirdness, then the game WILL get panned no matter how balanced it is. Tribes controls right now, especially in the correctly-sized maps, feel sloppy like this.

THIS is why it is important to change this stuff now. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but this is really just to try to keep the thread on-topic and let HiRez know that one more random customer has thought this through and believes the current system needs to change as outlined here.

_________________
Carrion (in-game name)

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:11 pm

root

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:30 pm
Posts: 856

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

I disagree that hitscan was not balance breaking. It certainly was, given Tribes' playstyle being fast and open. There were tons of threads on this, but introducing projectile bullets seriously helped alleviate a lot of the frustration.

Otherwise, I agree with you.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:17 pm

SickSpider

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 362
Location: BC, Canada

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

Agreed with all.
The jetpack, still don't have air control... jetting right should take me right! right? Guess not.

_________________
You want your flag back!? GO GET IT!
I prefer to try a MAD and miss than pulling a strike and succeed!

Sick montages(!)
Weekly/Monthly BPS fun (blushing)

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:23 pm

Razith

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:29 pm
Posts: 78

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

Posting for my support. Every single item in OP needs to be addressed for me to even consider giving you any of my time or my money, or to even recommend this game to a friend.

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:26 pm

AriesGodOfWar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:19 pm
Posts: 137

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

OP I concur. Lets build the house from the ground up. Nail Physics and Jet packs then work on everything else.

_________________

RootbeerAlamode wrote:

If a pathfinder and a mortar leave a train station at the same time....

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:36 pm

Schottingham

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 644

Re: please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP

TheEschaton wrote:

This is about making players feel in control, not balance.

In console games a common debate is the "sloppiness" of a given games' controls. A game can be great, but if it's based on quick reaction timing gameplay and it has controls that cause your avatar to respond slowly or with other kinds of weirdness, then the game WILL get panned no matter how balanced it is. Tribes controls right now, especially in the correctly-sized maps, feel sloppy like this.

I know it's not an FPS, but F-Zero GX for gamecube has about the most responsive controls I have ever used in a video game. If you mess up, you know it was your fault. The game is brutally fast, but as a friend of mine put it, "it gives you the tools you need", so the potential for developing extremely high skill is there.

I want that feeling for Tribes. I don't want to feel like I am fighting the quirks and limits of the physics model every step of the way. Give us something simple and robust (see OP, SmoothP's post), and tweak parameters (mass, thrust, energy pool) from there.

_________________
- Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video)
- Remove regen, bring back health kits
- Buff explosive jumping
- 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:49 pm

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please address the many CORE PHYSICS ISSUES ASAP