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Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez
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WitchDoctorVega Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am Posts: 2482 Location: On the coast, NH Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez without a mod, 4th and 5th weapons would ruin it. nobody would ever run out of ammo ever, ruin strategy. and make it acomplete warzone. Capping would be insanely difficult with that much fire going around a map. _________________ CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!
Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:26 pm

inventedword Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:58 am Posts: 390	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Quote: nobody would ever run out of ammo ever, People run out of ammo now? But seriously, ammo could be reduced for each weapon.
Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:36 pm

WitchDoctorVega Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am Posts: 2482 Location: On the coast, NH Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez i run out of ammo if i'm attacking gens/turrets. I mainly go demolition or base defense. If im on a demo run, i run out of ammo really quick once base objects have been leveled up. Makes me have to work hard to take people out and collect their drops, or head back to base and refresh. In either case, i think a 3 weapon loadout should be the max. Thats not including melee, deployables or belt items. Keeps things simple, workable and makes the weight limit a valid idea for restricting weapon sizes/types. _________________ CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!
Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:42 pm

Schottingham Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm Posts: 644	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez WitchDoctorVega wrote: without a mod, 4th and 5th weapons would ruin it. nobody would ever run out of ammo ever, ruin strategy. and make it acomplete warzone. Capping would be insanely difficult with that much fire going around a map. T1 and T2 used 3/4/5 and didn't have this problem. You traded mobility for versatility, where in T:A you trade mobility for, uh... well there's the ability to yell "UHH HUHHH", which is a plus. Coupled with the current universal ammo pickup system though, you may have a point. Maybe separate ammo drops into Light/Medium/Heavy levels as well? Heavy pickups would replenish ammo for all weapons, Medium replenishes all except Mortar/Missile/CG/Heavy Fusor, etc. Seems like a reasonable compromise between universal pickups and the weapon-specific pickups of old. _________________ - Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video) - Remove regen, bring back health kits - Buff explosive jumping - 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)
Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:52 pm

Limpster Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:49 am Posts: 1	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Loadouts 2.0 would be the dream, signed ! Schottingham wrote: in T:A you trade mobility for, uh... Well, a lot of HP ?
Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:39 pm

WitchDoctorVega Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am Posts: 2482 Location: On the coast, NH Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Loadouts 2.0 Loadouts 2.0 Loadouts 2.0 screw the 4/5 idea, just go with this and make sure it works before any other tweaks are made. _________________ CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!
Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:47 pm

Schottingham Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm Posts: 644	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez Limpster wrote: Well, a lot of HP ? Yes but T1/T2 heavies had a lot of HP and versatility. _________________ - Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video) - Remove regen, bring back health kits - Buff explosive jumping - 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)
Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:56 pm

WitchDoctorVega Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am Posts: 2482 Location: On the coast, NH Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez I think we can all agree they need to fix the current system or hi-rez will have a pretty big problem: People...will .....stop ......playing. Once planetside 2 comes out or ir firefall is any good, people are just going to jump on that bandwagon and i DONT want to see that happen. Tribes defined gaming for me from '99 to 2005, i would hate to see if get slaughtered again because the company screwed with it too much. If hi-rez wants to keep the tribes community edge, they should give this considerable thought and maybe give a small testing audience access to a Loadouts 2.0 trial before just saying "screw it". It really does sound like an amazing system, and it would feel so much like tribes i wouldn't even bother with planetside. _________________ CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!
Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:00 pm

Mabeline Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:56 am Posts: 329 Location: eSports	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez This loadout system is far too complicated for its own good. While it's fun to type S/M/L, that doesn't make the actual game design aspect of it a good idea. There are, what, 50 different weapons that you've proposed? That's an insane number of weapons to balance, and all for an (arguably thin) rather thin level of depth. You say "Heavier versions of a weapon have more sustained DPS and/or a larger splash radius, but NEVER more burst DPS." - so each upgrade buys me RoF or splash? Having 3 versions of a weapon with these indirect tradeoffs isn't fun unless you like spreadsheets, and even then it'll boil down to something like "buff chaingun if you're a chaser, buff explosives if you're on D, buff your spam weapon if you're on clear, ignore grenades.". Depth. The monetization process for this is insane, how do you add more things? Weapons are a bad way of adding gameplay, you can't keep adding different mechanics before things start overlapping horribly and you start to break high level play. You've already fallen into this duplication yourself while tripling the duplication in your grace weapon section (that Thumper is way OP...) and with the Repair Pack/Tool (If you can't explain it in one sentence...). Your loadout system doesn't address the fundamental gameplay problems. It feels like a knee-jerk reaction ("Oh my god we need customization! I know! [Mad Theorycraft]") but introduces even more weapons and corners for imbalance to hide with the expectation that you can merely upgrade one weapon to downgrade another in some symmetrical way. Soul-crushing choice isn't what makes games fun, actual gameplay is. Is this supposed to be 2/2/2? 2/2/3? 2/3/3? You just present a lot of ideas but they feel like just that, ideas, not a cohesive design that I can see playing. Rein in the complexity, there's way too many moving parts to reason about let alone balance. As a software developer you should know the costs of needless generality and complexity and recognize how finicky an incredibly human thing like game balance. _________________ SkepticTA wrote: The only thing comp needs to ban is Mabel.
Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:55 pm

P4PPY Beta Tester Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:50 am Posts: 819 Steam Gamer Name: P4PPY	Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez +1 for Mabeline _________________ Kills mean everything in Public play Kills mean nothing in Competition play Never judge a class by its kill count.
Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:27 pm

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Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

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WitchDoctorVega

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 2482
Location: On the coast, NH
Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

without a mod, 4th and 5th weapons would ruin it. nobody would ever run out of ammo ever, ruin strategy. and make it acomplete warzone. Capping would be insanely difficult with that much fire going around a map.

_________________
CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!

Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:26 pm

inventedword

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:58 am
Posts: 390

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Quote:

nobody would ever run out of ammo ever,

People run out of ammo now?
But seriously, ammo could be reduced for each weapon.

Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:36 pm

WitchDoctorVega

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 2482
Location: On the coast, NH
Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

i run out of ammo if i'm attacking gens/turrets. I mainly go demolition or base defense. If im on a demo run, i run out of ammo really quick once base objects have been leveled up. Makes me have to work hard to take people out and collect their drops, or head back to base and refresh.

In either case, i think a 3 weapon loadout should be the max. Thats not including melee, deployables or belt items. Keeps things simple, workable and makes the weight limit a valid idea for restricting weapon sizes/types.

_________________
CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!

Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:42 pm

Schottingham

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 644

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

WitchDoctorVega wrote:

T1 and T2 used 3/4/5 and didn't have this problem. You traded mobility for versatility, where in T:A you trade mobility for, uh... well there's the ability to yell "UHH HUHHH", which is a plus.

Coupled with the current universal ammo pickup system though, you may have a point. Maybe separate ammo drops into Light/Medium/Heavy levels as well? Heavy pickups would replenish ammo for all weapons, Medium replenishes all except Mortar/Missile/CG/Heavy Fusor, etc. Seems like a reasonable compromise between universal pickups and the weapon-specific pickups of old.

_________________
- Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video)
- Remove regen, bring back health kits
- Buff explosive jumping
- 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)

Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:52 pm

Limpster

Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:49 am
Posts: 1

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Loadouts 2.0 would be the dream, signed !

Schottingham wrote:

in T:A you trade mobility for, uh...

Well, a lot of HP ?

Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:39 pm

WitchDoctorVega

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 2482
Location: On the coast, NH
Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Loadouts 2.0
Loadouts 2.0
Loadouts 2.0

screw the 4/5 idea, just go with this and make sure it works before any other tweaks are made.

_________________
CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!

Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:47 pm

Schottingham

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 644

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

Limpster wrote:

Well, a lot of HP ?

Yes but T1/T2 heavies had a lot of HP and versatility.

_________________
- Fix Jetpack Physics (video) (video)
- Remove regen, bring back health kits
- Buff explosive jumping
- 100% inheritance for "bullet" weapons (nova blaster included)

Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:56 pm

WitchDoctorVega

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 2482
Location: On the coast, NH
Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

I think we can all agree they need to fix the current system or hi-rez will have a pretty big problem:

People...will .....stop ......playing.

Once planetside 2 comes out or ir firefall is any good, people are just going to jump on that bandwagon and i DONT want to see that happen. Tribes defined gaming for me from '99 to 2005, i would hate to see if get slaughtered again because the company screwed with it too much.

If hi-rez wants to keep the tribes community edge, they should give this considerable thought and maybe give a small testing audience access to a Loadouts 2.0 trial before just saying "screw it". It really does sound like an amazing system, and it would feel so much like tribes i wouldn't even bother with planetside.

_________________
CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:00 pm

Mabeline

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:56 am
Posts: 329
Location: eSports

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

This loadout system is far too complicated for its own good. While it's fun to type S/M/L, that doesn't make the actual game design aspect of it a good idea. There are, what, 50 different weapons that you've proposed? That's an insane number of weapons to balance, and all for an (arguably thin) rather thin level of depth. You say "Heavier versions of a weapon have more sustained DPS and/or a larger splash radius, but NEVER more burst DPS." - so each upgrade buys me RoF or splash? Having 3 versions of a weapon with these indirect tradeoffs isn't fun unless you like spreadsheets, and even then it'll boil down to something like "buff chaingun if you're a chaser, buff explosives if you're on D, buff your spam weapon if you're on clear, ignore grenades.". Depth.

The monetization process for this is insane, how do you add more things? Weapons are a bad way of adding gameplay, you can't keep adding different mechanics before things start overlapping horribly and you start to break high level play. You've already fallen into this duplication yourself while tripling the duplication in your grace weapon section (that Thumper is way OP...) and with the Repair Pack/Tool (If you can't explain it in one sentence...).

Your loadout system doesn't address the fundamental gameplay problems. It feels like a knee-jerk reaction ("Oh my god we need customization! I know! [Mad Theorycraft]") but introduces even more weapons and corners for imbalance to hide with the expectation that you can merely upgrade one weapon to downgrade another in some symmetrical way. Soul-crushing choice isn't what makes games fun, actual gameplay is. Is this supposed to be 2/2/2? 2/2/3? 2/3/3? You just present a lot of ideas but they feel like just that, ideas, not a cohesive design that I can see playing.

Rein in the complexity, there's way too many moving parts to reason about let alone balance. As a software developer you should know the costs of needless generality and complexity and recognize how finicky an incredibly human thing like game balance.

_________________

SkepticTA wrote:

The only thing comp needs to ban is Mabel.

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:55 pm

P4PPY

Beta Tester

Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:50 am
Posts: 819
Steam Gamer Name: P4PPY

Re: Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez

+1 for Mabeline

_________________
Kills mean everything in Public play
Kills mean nothing in Competition play
Never judge a class by its kill count.

Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:27 pm

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Loadouts 2.0: Customization for the masses, CASH for Hi-Rez