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16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)
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DrEuthanasia Beta Tester Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm Posts: 1101	Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion) DibbzTheLoner wrote: Although a RoF nerf would have been nice, the damage nerf is fine by me and solves the problem. It solves the problem, but cripples the weapon's trapping ability without addressing how relatively effective it is during duels - another problem that needed solving at least as much as instant-death ranged attacks on mediums coming out of stealth. I'm glad it got nerfed, but not like this.
Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:00 pm

miniKAD Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:03 am Posts: 546 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: miniKAD	Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion) DrEuthanasia wrote: DibbzTheLoner wrote: Although a RoF nerf would have been nice, the damage nerf is fine by me and solves the problem. It solves the problem, but cripples the weapon's trapping ability without addressing how relatively effective it is during duels - another problem that needed solving at least as much as instant-death ranged attacks on mediums coming out of stealth. I'm glad it got nerfed, but not like this. It doesn't really affect its trapping ability that severely. You will still get a ~1200 (I think that's the new damage number) hp advantage over whoever it is you manage to trap. A RoF nerf would have been good, I just think that this damage reduction is just as acceptable. _________________ Sentinels: A guide to placing your Claymores: viewtopic.php?f=234&t=80784 (I know, something that you'd think would be obvious, yet so many people have trouble with it). Finally back after several months off
Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:14 pm

Salit Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:12 am Posts: 78	Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion) I think this is a fine nerf. The Jackal now has a more specialized role toward assets, with the SMG being specialized towards infantry, and the fusor being the "middle-man" so to speak. I bet it'll still one-shot Lights, giving the ability to down possible threats to the approaching allied forces. And it'll still be a semi-decent flag chasing weapon, given the airburst ability it'll still have. _________________ "Revenge is a plate best served blue."
Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:31 am

TheEschaton Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm Posts: 2953 Steam Gamer Name: LeadProphet	Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion) Mekhazzio wrote: TheEschaton wrote: The Arx Buster does more burst, for one. No, it generally doesn't. In the sole specific case where all stickies contact, yes, the Arx will do more damage, but even then, it takes longer to do it, giving the target a little more time to act. If any of the blobs are hitting with only splash damage, then the Arx does a lot less damage, on average, because the initial detonation typically knocks the target out of the blast radius of the successive detonations, even on the Dust Devil variant with its larger radius. The Jackal, by detonating simultaneously, avoids that problem entirely, so it gets far more damage out of near-misses than the Arx does. The only way the Arx can compete is if you're so good with sticky placement & timing that you make each one bump the victim into the next. It feels good when you pull it off, but it's not exactly a common event . (I'm really looking forward to the next patch's reduction of knockback on the Arx/Devil. If it's a big enough reduction it could be a huge buff to their killing power...) I think you're not comparing apples to apples though. I was talking about ambush situations where you get all stickies from either weapon directly onto the enemy player. In combat situations where the Arx is killing via splash, I still think it will do more burst, and in those situations spinfusors DEFINITELY do more burst than the Jackal, because the times in combat when you will get all 3 jackal shots to splash the target are few and far between. _________________ Carrion (in-game name)
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:05 am

ZProtoss Alpha Tester Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm Posts: 427	Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion) OP does not understand how the game works at all. The Jackal is still going to be grossly overpowered even after the patch. Its a fundamentally broken weapon that will likely never, ever, be competition legal. The entire concept of a stealth class throwing out 1000+ unavoidable burst damage at range is just obscenely stupid. If the Jackal ever wanted to be comp legal, it'd be changed so that each shot did 250 damage (regardless of being in the air or ground), that ramped up to 400 damage per shot after being placed on the terrain/building for 2 seconds. Essentially preserving the trap ability of the weapon, but removing the LOL COMBAT EXPLOSION aspect of the weapon.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:25 am

tehjester Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:11 pm Posts: 450	Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion) ZProtoss wrote: The entire concept of a stealth class throwing out 1000+ unavoidable burst damage at range is just obscene +1
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:47 am

Bitralon Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:45 am Posts: 763	Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion) Oh look, you'll have to change your tactics.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:58 am

Durzaka Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:42 pm Posts: 1276	Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion) TheEschaton wrote: Mekhazzio wrote: TheEschaton wrote: The Arx Buster does more burst, for one. No, it generally doesn't. In the sole specific case where all stickies contact, yes, the Arx will do more damage, but even then, it takes longer to do it, giving the target a little more time to act. If any of the blobs are hitting with only splash damage, then the Arx does a lot less damage, on average, because the initial detonation typically knocks the target out of the blast radius of the successive detonations, even on the Dust Devil variant with its larger radius. The Jackal, by detonating simultaneously, avoids that problem entirely, so it gets far more damage out of near-misses than the Arx does. The only way the Arx can compete is if you're so good with sticky placement & timing that you make each one bump the victim into the next. It feels good when you pull it off, but it's not exactly a common event . (I'm really looking forward to the next patch's reduction of knockback on the Arx/Devil. If it's a big enough reduction it could be a huge buff to their killing power...) I think you're not comparing apples to apples though. I was talking about ambush situations where you get all stickies from either weapon directly onto the enemy player. In combat situations where the Arx is killing via splash, I still think it will do more burst, and in those situations spinfusors DEFINITELY do more burst than the Jackal, because the times in combat when you will get all 3 jackal shots to splash the target are few and far between. In said situation where you have a chance to land all 3 stickies, the INF did it from stealth, and the target doesn't see it coming. A lot harder to dodge. But yes, if all 3 stickies are landed (how many times have you landed all 3 arx on someone who wasn't afk/standing still unaware?) the raider does more damage. And he should, he is the base-destroying class of choice, and he is also a medium armor. In a comparison by splash, the jackal still wins simply because you can choose when to detonate the bomb. If you need to spell out why that is better, well i have nothing more to say.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:03 am

BlueSpark4 Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:51 pm Posts: 240	Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion) ZProtoss wrote: The entire concept of a stealth class throwing out 1000+ unavoidable burst damage at range is just obscenely stupid. Which is exactly why a large portion of the community has been asking for a RoF reduction on the Jackal. So its burst damage wouldn't be unavoidable any more. I don't see why it would still be banned in competitive play if you couldn't chuck out all 3 grenades in about half a second. _________________ Pootleshooter wrote: nolakpd504 wrote: Nope and u can also shoot someone in the ass and still get a headshot. That actually makes a lot of sense considering some of the people around here.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:02 pm

Lazerus Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:48 pm Posts: 254	Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion) Quote: The Close Combat perk’s backstab bonus has been increased to double damage, and is now the first unlock for the perk. sounds like a good change for me it is still one of the best weapons ingame. the Infiltrator SMGs are not that good, and the knife-dmg was way too low for a stealth-class. then the jackal was a one-hit-killer like no other weapon. now you have to change your tactic, maybe we see more melee-infs now
Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:12 pm

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16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

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DrEuthanasia

Beta Tester

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 1101

Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

DibbzTheLoner wrote:

Although a RoF nerf would have been nice, the damage nerf is fine by me and solves the problem.

It solves the problem, but cripples the weapon's trapping ability without addressing how relatively effective it is during duels - another problem that needed solving at least as much as instant-death ranged attacks on mediums coming out of stealth.

I'm glad it got nerfed, but not like this.

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:00 pm

miniKAD

Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:03 am
Posts: 546
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: miniKAD

Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

DrEuthanasia wrote:

DibbzTheLoner wrote:

Although a RoF nerf would have been nice, the damage nerf is fine by me and solves the problem.

It doesn't really affect its trapping ability that severely.
You will still get a ~1200 (I think that's the new damage number) hp advantage over whoever it is you manage to trap.
A RoF nerf would have been good, I just think that this damage reduction is just as acceptable.

_________________
Sentinels: A guide to placing your Claymores: viewtopic.php?f=234&t=80784
(I know, something that you'd think would be obvious, yet so many people have trouble with it).
Finally back after several months off

Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:14 pm

Salit

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:12 am
Posts: 78

Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

I think this is a fine nerf.

The Jackal now has a more specialized role toward assets, with the SMG being specialized towards infantry, and the fusor being the "middle-man" so to speak.

I bet it'll still one-shot Lights, giving the ability to down possible threats to the approaching allied forces.

And it'll still be a semi-decent flag chasing weapon, given the airburst ability it'll still have.

_________________
"Revenge is a plate best served blue."

Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:31 am

TheEschaton

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:53 pm
Posts: 2953
Steam Gamer Name: LeadProphet

Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

Mekhazzio wrote:

TheEschaton wrote:

The Arx Buster does more burst, for one.

No, it generally doesn't.

In the sole specific case where all stickies contact, yes, the Arx will do more damage, but even then, it takes longer to do it, giving the target a little more time to act.

If any of the blobs are hitting with only splash damage, then the Arx does a lot less damage, on average, because the initial detonation typically knocks the target out of the blast radius of the successive detonations, even on the Dust Devil variant with its larger radius. The Jackal, by detonating simultaneously, avoids that problem entirely, so it gets far more damage out of near-misses than the Arx does. The only way the Arx can compete is if you're so good with sticky placement & timing that you make each one bump the victim into the next. It feels good when you pull it off, but it's not exactly a common event .

(I'm really looking forward to the next patch's reduction of knockback on the Arx/Devil. If it's a big enough reduction it could be a huge buff to their killing power...)

I think you're not comparing apples to apples though. I was talking about ambush situations where you get all stickies from either weapon directly onto the enemy player.

In combat situations where the Arx is killing via splash, I still think it will do more burst, and in those situations spinfusors DEFINITELY do more burst than the Jackal, because the times in combat when you will get all 3 jackal shots to splash the target are few and far between.

_________________
Carrion (in-game name)

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:05 am

ZProtoss

Alpha Tester

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 427

Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

OP does not understand how the game works at all. The Jackal is still going to be grossly overpowered even after the patch. Its a fundamentally broken weapon that will likely never, ever, be competition legal.

The entire concept of a stealth class throwing out 1000+ unavoidable burst damage at range is just obscenely stupid.

If the Jackal ever wanted to be comp legal, it'd be changed so that each shot did 250 damage (regardless of being in the air or ground), that ramped up to 400 damage per shot after being placed on the terrain/building for 2 seconds. Essentially preserving the trap ability of the weapon, but removing the LOL COMBAT EXPLOSION aspect of the weapon.

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:25 am

tehjester

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 450

Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

ZProtoss wrote:

The entire concept of a stealth class throwing out 1000+ unavoidable burst damage at range is just obscene

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:47 am

Bitralon

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:45 am
Posts: 763

Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

Oh look, you'll have to change your tactics.

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:58 am

Durzaka

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:42 pm
Posts: 1276

Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

TheEschaton wrote:

Mekhazzio wrote:

TheEschaton wrote:

The Arx Buster does more burst, for one.

In said situation where you have a chance to land all 3 stickies, the INF did it from stealth, and the target doesn't see it coming. A lot harder to dodge.

But yes, if all 3 stickies are landed (how many times have you landed all 3 arx on someone who wasn't afk/standing still unaware?) the raider does more damage. And he should, he is the base-destroying class of choice, and he is also a medium armor.

In a comparison by splash, the jackal still wins simply because you can choose when to detonate the bomb. If you need to spell out why that is better, well i have nothing more to say.

Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:03 am

BlueSpark4

Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:51 pm
Posts: 240

Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

ZProtoss wrote:

The entire concept of a stealth class throwing out 1000+ unavoidable burst damage at range is just obscenely stupid.

Which is exactly why a large portion of the community has been asking for a RoF reduction on the Jackal. So its burst damage wouldn't be unavoidable any more. I don't see why it would still be banned in competitive play if you couldn't chuck out all 3 grenades in about half a second.

_________________

Pootleshooter wrote:

nolakpd504 wrote:

Nope and u can also shoot someone in the ass and still get a headshot.

That actually makes a lot of sense considering some of the people around here.

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:02 pm

Lazerus

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:48 pm
Posts: 254

Re: 16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)

Quote:

The Close Combat perk’s backstab bonus has been increased to double damage, and is now the first unlock for the perk.

sounds like a good change for me

it is still one of the best weapons ingame.
the Infiltrator SMGs are not that good, and the knife-dmg was way too low for a stealth-class.
then the jackal was a one-hit-killer like no other weapon.
now you have to change your tactic, maybe we see more melee-infs now

Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:12 pm

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16% Jackal nerf is too severe. (alternate suggestion)