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new AURA
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Niobe Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 pm Posts: 352	Re: new AURA I'm not interested in buffing crit, only in changing how it works. It's just an idea which has to be balanced but let us see how it could work: Crit bonus damage would be +50% (not +100% like now) Base crit chance would be 25% Base physical power of gods will be reduced by ~12,5% Example: Physical Power 38 now =change=> 34 base physical power So a crit would do 1,5 * 34 = 51 damage Overall damage: ((1-0,25)+0,251,5)34 = 38,25 damage => nearly the same as at the moment In endgame crit would become less strong because your damage would be only multiplied by 1.5 (by 1.75 with Deathbringer) if you have a crit. This change would need a lot of balancing - all god and item stat values have to be adapted but we are in beta anyway. To your item: I fear it's the same problem like before - less intensive than a reduction of crit chance (crit would still do something) but crit items would become worse if one uses this aura, not better. It's really not easy to find a crit counter that works like all other counter items with the current game mechanics. :/
Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:24 pm

realkarmashock Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:49 am Posts: 4716	Re: new AURA Niobe wrote: I'm not interested in buffing crit, only in changing how it works. It's just an idea which has to be balanced but let us see how it could work: Crit bonus damage would be +50% (not +100% like now) Base crit chance would be 25% Base physical power of gods will be reduced by ~12,5% Only problem here is your idea of base crits. Remove that and I have no problem with it.
Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:28 pm

Niobe Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 pm Posts: 352	Re: new AURA But this part of the example enables the counter mechanics. Crit needs a base value if we try to counter it like other stats. Last edited by Niobe on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:31 pm

realkarmashock Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:49 am Posts: 4716	Re: new AURA Niobe wrote: But this part of the example enables the counter mechanics. Crit needs a base value if we try to counter it like other stats. Why? Any AD god is going to have crits regardless. Counters exist to counter things. I could buy winged wand even though no one on the enemy team has a slow ability or item. Why give all gods a base crit stat when it will actually make them stronger in all situations but when the anti crit item is present. You'd require everyone to buy an anti crit item just to make things how they were before. It would nerf all other gods while buffing AD gods. So no. That suggestion is a non-starter. You have crit steroid items such as deathbringer. I want an armor that is like deathbringer in that it reduces crits. That's totally reasonable.
Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:53 pm

Niobe Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 pm Posts: 352	Re: new AURA You ignore the balancing after mechanics change - all stat values would be changed. Don't compare this with the current situation. Base crit should not be implemented in a way that makes AD gods stronger. But how do you like this? Another way would be to implement a kind of negative crit chance. If something reduces your crit chance to below 0 you have a chance to do only 75% of your noncrit damage. Example: You have a 6% crit because of Warrior Tabi and you become affected by an aura like this: "AURA: All enemies within 30 feet have their crit chance reduced by 25%." Now you have a crit chance of -19% and a 19% chance to do only 75% of your noncrit damage.
Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:06 pm

realkarmashock Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:49 am Posts: 4716	Re: new AURA Niobe wrote: You ignore the balancing after mechanics change - all stat values would be changed. Don't compare this with the current situation. Base crit should not be implemented in a way that makes AD gods stronger. Well no because crits would be meaningless to AP gods and you'd effectively be increasing damage for those gods thus making things tougher on tanks as well. It would benefit ad gods. Sorry, I don't like that idea. Quote: You have a 6% crit because of Warrior Tabi and you become affected by an aura like this: "AURA: All enemies within 30 feet have their crit chance reduced by 25%." Now you have a crit chance of -19% and a 19% chance to do only 75% of your noncrit damage. I'd prefer to just multiply the crit chance against the debuff. So if you have a 6% crit chance and I have an item that reduces crit chance percentage by 25 percent then that would mean 6 * .75 = 4.3% crit chance. Or another way to do it would be to reduce the crit steroid by X percent. So lets say the crit damage steroid is 2x normally and 3x percent with death bringer. Okay... what if we had an item that reduced crit damage by 25 percent. So... 2 * .75 = 1.5 times non crit damage.... with death bringer that would be 3 * .75 = 2.25 times non crit damage. That is how I would balance it. So it impacts the steroid directly. If you have no crits it obviously does nothing to you. But then magic armor does nothing to stop AD gods from pounding you or physical armor against magic gods. So that's nothing new.
Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:52 pm

Niobe Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 pm Posts: 352	Re: new AURA It's not pleasant to discuss with you. Maybe you don't read what I write - maybe you don't understand. My English is not good - maybe this is the reason... There's no sense in repeating that base crit should not be implemented in a way that makes AD gods stronger. I showed you an example how balancing could work and you still... There's also no point in repeating that a stat counter has to make items better, not worse. Especially if you have an alternative like attack speed.
Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:38 am

realkarmashock Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:49 am Posts: 4716	Re: new AURA Niobe wrote: It's not pleasant to discuss with you. No offense, but I don't like repeating myself either. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here.
Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:19 pm

athyest Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:40 am Posts: 2	Re: new AURA I didn't read all five pages of this discussion so maybe this has already been brought up... I like the spirit of an item like this, crit is very op at the moment and there does need to be an effective counter to it outside of being a tank. My thoughts on it are: Make the aura one or the other, lower crit dmg or chance (dev's choice) Tweak a few other items (DB no longer gives crit chance but still increases crit damage, lower the chance to crit of some items but add crit damage to them) to force AD's to pick either a crit chance build or a crit damage build. I feel this could greatly increase the balance of crit, no more AD's with Fatalis, Rage, and DB ripping off insanely high crits every other hit. In effect, you force someone to build for crit more for less damage or crit less for more damage. Just my thoughts.
Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:32 pm

Bnol Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:41 am Posts: 81	Re: new AURA Every item’s passive has an inherent value, regardless of the other items in the game (except for Winged Wand in the rare situation the enemy team has no slows at all). This is because all gods have passive protections and power. An anti-crit aura would be an anomaly in this regard, as it would only derive value from nullifying other items. Thus, its existence in the game would push damage dealers away from any Crit items, which would severely limit build options. Now, having an item with personal crit defense would be a different story, as that allows tanks to build tankier against ADs, who already have a tank killer oriented item in Qin’s, while sacrificing either HP or protection, making them weaker against APs. It also falls in line with Crit only being a personal stat and not an aura. The game does have to err in the side of more offense, because God deaths are required to advance the game at a reasonable pace.
Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:27 pm

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new AURA

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Niobe

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 352

Re: new AURA

I'm not interested in buffing crit, only in changing how it works.

It's just an idea which has to be balanced but let us see how it could work:
Crit bonus damage would be +50% (not +100% like now)
Base crit chance would be 25%
Base physical power of gods will be reduced by ~12,5%

Example:
Physical Power 38 now =change=> 34 base physical power

So a crit would do 1,5 * 34 = 51 damage

Overall damage:
((1-0,25)+0,25*1,5)*34 = 38,25 damage => nearly the same as at the moment

In endgame crit would become less strong because your damage would be only multiplied by 1.5 (by 1.75 with Deathbringer) if you have a crit.

This change would need a lot of balancing - all god and item stat values have to be adapted but we are in beta anyway.

To your item: I fear it's the same problem like before - less intensive than a reduction of crit chance (crit would still do something) but crit items would become worse if one uses this aura, not better.

It's really not easy to find a crit counter that works like all other counter items with the current game mechanics. :/

Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:24 pm

realkarmashock

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:49 am
Posts: 4716

Re: new AURA

Niobe wrote:

Only problem here is your idea of base crits.

Remove that and I have no problem with it.

Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:28 pm

Niobe

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 352

Re: new AURA

But this part of the example enables the counter mechanics. Crit needs a base value if we try to counter it like other stats.

Last edited by Niobe on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:31 pm

realkarmashock

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:49 am
Posts: 4716

Re: new AURA

Niobe wrote:

But this part of the example enables the counter mechanics. Crit needs a base value if we try to counter it like other stats.

Why? Any AD god is going to have crits regardless.

Counters exist to counter things. I could buy winged wand even though no one on the enemy team has a slow ability or item. Why give all gods a base crit stat when it will actually make them stronger in all situations but when the anti crit item is present.

You'd require everyone to buy an anti crit item just to make things how they were before. It would nerf all other gods while buffing AD gods.

So no.

That suggestion is a non-starter. You have crit steroid items such as deathbringer. I want an armor that is like deathbringer in that it reduces crits.

That's totally reasonable.

Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:53 pm

Niobe

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 352

Re: new AURA

You ignore the balancing after mechanics change - all stat values would be changed. Don't compare this with the current situation. Base crit should not be implemented in a way that makes AD gods stronger.

But how do you like this?
Another way would be to implement a kind of negative crit chance.
If something reduces your crit chance to below 0 you have a chance to do only 75% of your noncrit damage.

Example:
You have a 6% crit because of Warrior Tabi and you become affected by an aura like this:
"AURA: All enemies within 30 feet have their crit chance reduced by 25%."

Now you have a crit chance of -19% and a 19% chance to do only 75% of your noncrit damage.

Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:06 pm

realkarmashock

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:49 am
Posts: 4716

Re: new AURA

Niobe wrote:

Well no because crits would be meaningless to AP gods and you'd effectively be increasing damage for those gods thus making things tougher on tanks as well.

It would benefit ad gods.

Sorry, I don't like that idea.

Quote:

You have a 6% crit because of Warrior Tabi and you become affected by an aura like this:
"AURA: All enemies within 30 feet have their crit chance reduced by 25%."

Now you have a crit chance of -19% and a 19% chance to do only 75% of your noncrit damage.

I'd prefer to just multiply the crit chance against the debuff.

So if you have a 6% crit chance and I have an item that reduces crit chance percentage by 25 percent then that would mean 6 * .75 = 4.3% crit chance.

Or another way to do it would be to reduce the crit steroid by X percent. So lets say the crit damage steroid is 2x normally and 3x percent with death bringer.

Okay... what if we had an item that reduced crit damage by 25 percent. So... 2 * .75 = 1.5 times non crit damage.... with death bringer that would be 3 * .75 = 2.25 times non crit damage.

That is how I would balance it. So it impacts the steroid directly. If you have no crits it obviously does nothing to you. But then magic armor does nothing to stop AD gods from pounding you or physical armor against magic gods.

So that's nothing new.

Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:52 pm

Niobe

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 352

Re: new AURA

It's not pleasant to discuss with you. Maybe you don't read what I write - maybe you don't understand.

My English is not good - maybe this is the reason...

There's no sense in repeating that base crit should not be implemented in a way that makes AD gods stronger. I showed you an example how balancing could work and you still...

There's also no point in repeating that a stat counter has to make items better, not worse. Especially if you have an alternative like attack speed.

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:38 am

realkarmashock

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:49 am
Posts: 4716

Re: new AURA

Niobe wrote:

It's not pleasant to discuss with you.

No offense, but I don't like repeating myself either.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:19 pm

athyest

Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:40 am
Posts: 2

Re: new AURA

I didn't read all five pages of this discussion so maybe this has already been brought up...
I like the spirit of an item like this, crit is very op at the moment and there does need to be an effective counter to it outside of being a tank. My thoughts on it are:

Make the aura one or the other, lower crit dmg or chance (dev's choice)
Tweak a few other items (DB no longer gives crit chance but still increases crit damage, lower the chance to crit of some items but add crit damage to them) to force AD's to pick either a crit chance build or a crit damage build.
I feel this could greatly increase the balance of crit, no more AD's with Fatalis, Rage, and DB ripping off insanely high crits every other hit.

In effect, you force someone to build for crit more for less damage or crit less for more damage.

Just my thoughts.

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:32 pm

Bnol

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:41 am
Posts: 81

Re: new AURA

Every item’s passive has an inherent value, regardless of the other items in the game (except for Winged Wand in the rare situation the enemy team has no slows at all). This is because all gods have passive protections and power. An anti-crit aura would be an anomaly in this regard, as it would only derive value from nullifying other items. Thus, its existence in the game would push damage dealers away from any Crit items, which would severely limit build options.

Now, having an item with personal crit defense would be a different story, as that allows tanks to build tankier against ADs, who already have a tank killer oriented item in Qin’s, while sacrificing either HP or protection, making them weaker against APs. It also falls in line with Crit only being a personal stat and not an aura.

The game does have to err in the side of more offense, because God deaths are required to advance the game at a reasonable pace.

Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:27 pm

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