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Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]
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ryukolink Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 am Posts: 1162	Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF] BsamohT wrote: I really like the terrain and the general "feel" of this map, but the flag hut still leaves something to be desired. I think you should consider turning the hut 90 degrees, so that the big forcefields are blocking the front to back. The new side route should have another small opening on the other side, but the forcefields on those openings should be removed. I feel that it is absolutely necessary to have a legitimate route - side to side - available with the generator down. The big forcefield that is now on the frost side should be removed to maintain access for e grabs. you mean side to side route with the gens UP. _________________ http://www.twitch.tv/ryukolink#/ Ryukolink playing tribes ascend daily with double the webcam and triple the excitment, heyooooo! We think too much and feel too little More than machinery we need humanity More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness Without these qualities life will be violent and all will be lost
Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:27 am

ryukolink Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 am Posts: 1162	Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF] Version 1 = The back route may not even be possible... this would make gens somewhat important but not as important as in version 2 Version 2 = Easy quasi back routes that might be OP.. but this makes gens very important still This is the top of the stand, All calls are made as if I was on my flag stand looking towards the enemys flag stand, _________________ http://www.twitch.tv/ryukolink#/ Ryukolink playing tribes ascend daily with double the webcam and triple the excitment, heyooooo! We think too much and feel too little More than machinery we need humanity More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness Without these qualities life will be violent and all will be lost
Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:41 am

socalPK Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Posts: 483 Location: Southern California, USA	Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF] ryukolink wrote: Quote: This map is well on it's way to becoming a bella 2. Pointless to everyone. Bella tried to be too many things to too many people and in trying to make everyone happy it made no one happy. Bella was fine, what happened was the mapper tried to appease people's desires and in the end it got all contorted but at least they tried and listened unlike some people. Um yeah I said that already. We're off to a great start here. Quote: It seemed that Permafrost's original intention was to actually make a map that was different from the others, one where defense could, if they worked as a team hold the line and make a real difference. The only real tactic as offense was to pace the attack and clear from outside before entering...which worked extremely well. Funny how few knew it though because they were so programmed in thinking that rushing in should work. I don't think you play at a competitive level, if you did you would find that this doesn't work on the current or OLD permafrost. Let's be honest here, without VOIP or a smaller public server size (12 or 10 man) the games are disorganized and you get a mismanaged group of noobs to pros. More often than not permafrost is defensive heavy and a turtle map. Are the changes for comp? Well that makes more sense to me then. All I hear about comp is how many teams are leaving or what idiots non-comp players are from comp players. So I think things are making more sense to me know. Thanks. Quote: Now in it's new version the opposite seems to work better than ever...just rush in - alone even, there is no real way to defend unless there is a sizable number of players dedicated to defense. Which (contrary to so many forum complainers about too many tcns) the games and teams I've played on are often very defense light, perhaps that's partly my fault as I often choose the roster with the least tcn's or dmb's if I want to defend. I think here in lies something more than your "team's roster". Here in lies a fundamental flaw in the way hirez handled educating people and getting people to work as a single unit. You seem to want that unity and cohesion that is really only found at a competitive level. Because, unlike you I have only found it ridiculously easy to defense no matter how many people attack. As it stands in 7v7 competitive play you can just have all 3 people on defense (or 4) kill the LO and incoming people. THe only counter to this is 2-3 INF's, Heavy's get torn up on the way in and die. There are many ways to work as a team, including without VOIP in a pub, it takes experience and intention. It's not to the same level but it's definitely there and can make all the difference. I have played comp, just not TA comp. Not sure how this matters, I don't want to get into some sort of opinion war here. What I can tell you is that experienced players in pubs can keep the gens down without much effort. And that this new version, like many of the maps leave little for flag defense. If the gens are up...strong D if they are down the D is weak, and this map just got a whole lot easier to take the gens down...what is your argument here? You seem to like that, great...no turtlefest. I am simply saying I think there is room for more in this game and that includes some maps that have additional challenges and more to consider than the flag alone. Quote: This map is a real mess without dedicated defense, at least half the team (4-6 min) is needed to babysit the gens and flag not including chasers, at the very least. Defense should not need so many, defense should have the advantage and offense should have the challenge. While a small mix of INF's and Heavy's can still effectively shut down the base entirely, even 1 decent INF now can keep the gen down rather unchallenged. Seems completely pointless to defend at all. Not to mention the ridiculous distance all the base turrets are away from the base which results in them being down most of the game anyway. I beg to differ about the SINGLE INF shut down. Good games are not made from TURTLE base's. There needs to be a balance and there almost is, there almost is. The map just needs some final tweaks to it, I like that the gens are important but I don't feel like they should be necessary. The Turrets are far away to prevent the game from becoming a complete turtle fest. Back in the day permafrost would end 0-0 after 25 min reg play and 10 min overtime. I don't think you really have the experience to make these statements. They seem misguided from your own personal vendetta desires. I mean we all have personal desires but you seem to only see this from the POV of someone who LOVES gen play and defense. I have experienced it, perhaps it is a pub manifestation or perhaps you are simply an amazing defender beyond my earthly reach. By balance you mean make the flag easier right? Of course. We can't make the gens much easier than they are now....unless you are defending. C'mon how many entrances does a gen room need? Seriously? Quote: I have to ask why are the INV stations still out in the boonies? Before it was to balance the deployable defense (and made a lot of sense), but now that there are countless entrances and vulnerabilities...why the defense handicap still? Drop inv stations for yourself? Come on now man how can you make a statement like that? INV stations on the stand make it OP for DMB/TCN combo, come on now. Oh yeah right why didn't I think of that...oh because I'm just not that good. Are you 10? Quote: So we've gone from a map that added something different to the rotation to just another undependable vulnerable base. Perhaps I am missing what the intention was (and is) for this map, there must be one to have made it so different in the first place no? What I liked most about it was that it was actually different and creative and made players look at playing a bit differently. Perhaps it was too much for some set in their ways and some small change might have alleviated their rigid aversion a bit but this is a full 180, you may as well have put the gens outside and left the flag on a Kata-like stand. This is NO base, this is an invitation to the enemy to walk right in unchallenged and pointless. Perhaps HR has fallen back on Blitz to mix up the typical tactics a bit so this map can fall in line with the standard version of HR's small map, weak base, team light, auto dominate, concepts of CTF? I thought perhaps with this map and Blitz they were moving to add some depth and growth to the game... VGO! "There is NO Base" - Dude, you are making OUTLANDISH statements. Have you even played this map in a comp setting? Come on now. There's comp again. Guess not all the comp teams have left yet....perhaps this map will pull them all back. Outlandish, hardly, this map was different, it was a much more challenging map before, it has been simplified, opened up and made pointless. It is becoming the same as all the other maps. Outlandish...lol "Auto dominate" - The game is about auto's yes? Are you a spinfusor ONLY user? If so you should not be making statements. People like YOU are the reason Bella got f*. You need to fully understand the game. Balance for COMP and PUB play might be able to follow suit. No the game is NOT about autos, not with the name of Tribes in it. People like me, what?...who's outlandish?....I never complained about Bella, not that I recall. I didn't like it as much in it's last version where the gens were impossible to defend...I just adjusted and went O all the time, f the gens on that version...I never complained or made foolish suggestions to make is easier either. I am not clear what you mean about autos here though, what does my disliking of their dominance have to do with Bella in the least? Quote: I hope I am wrong and the map grows on me, still, even if it does, I am growing tired of all the maps finding their way to be nothing more than cosmetic variants of the same one man "team" tactics. Permafrost takes a s* of teamwork from the offense and very little teamwork from defense. I don't think either side should have it easy but rather balanced. I will say I am upgrading my SEN gear and I played Permafrost a bit last night in that role and it was more fun and interesting. I will leave the hands-on defense to the professionals like you, since us mere mortals have a bit more trouble since the map has been "adjusted" to your vision of a challenging and depth filled game. Perhaps it's time to consider comp maps. Maps designed for the smaller teams, and rotation maps that can be bigger and more complex. Add transports and midway objectives and possibly secondary power sources and deployable transports. Yeah I like depth and scale, I like TA (I've sure played it) but I'd like to see it grow rather than stagnate. I'm one of those players... _________________ Tribes: Ascend - NA West [TBZ]socalpk Tribes: {BZ}PK - Team Battlezone More Game Less Attitude
Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:08 am

ryukolink Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 am Posts: 1162	Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF] Are the changes for comp? Well that makes more sense to me then. All I hear about comp is how many teams are leaving or what idiots non-comp players are from comp players. So I think things are making more sense to me know. Thanks. I think what you are hearing is the NEGATIVE nay sayers talk too much, if you idle in #ascend you probably hear proj and mabel b** about the game all day, yeah there are a lot of fundamental flaws about the game but we are working with what we got here, fact of the matter is the game is still decent it just needs a larger map pool, I see here there is a large disconnect from pubber to comp player, I'm not being elitest in a common a**** way I'm being elitist in that I want comp to strive, unfortunately the pubber pays the price because HiRez doesn't have other tactical measures in place to INCREASE teamwork. There are many ways to work as a team, including without VOIP in a pub, it takes experience and intention. It's not to the same level but it's definitely there and can make all the difference. I have played comp, just not TA comp. Not sure how this matters, I don't want to get into some sort of opinion war here. What I can tell you is that experienced players in pubs can keep the gens down without much effort. And that this new version, like many of the maps leave little for flag defense. If the gens are up...strong D if they are down the D is weak, and this map just got a whole lot easier to take the gens down...what is your argument here? You seem to like that, great...no turtlefest. I am simply saying I think there is room for more in this game and that includes some maps that have additional challenges and more to consider than the flag alone. I'm all for in depthness, I just don't want GEN play to be mandatory, some people (not myself) feel like GEN's shouldn't even be in competitive play; now to go back to what you said before, I agree.. There should be COMP and PUB maps, separate entities from one another, almost like a "COMP" mod for the game but we aren't going to get that so we have to work with what we have unfortunately. I have experienced it, perhaps it is a pub manifestation or perhaps you are simply an amazing defender beyond my earthly reach. By balance you mean make the flag easier right? Of course. We can't make the gens much easier than they are now....unless you are defending. C'mon how many entrances does a gen room need? Seriously? I would be ok with removing half the Gen room entrances IF there was an offsite entrance to the gen room like the cave in katabatic. As it stands now at a public standpoint if you get 3-4 snipers just sniping LO down with some LD they won't ever make it in. If you added an offsite entrance to the gen room you could get rid of half the entrances on the base and things would be a little different. I agree, there are a lot of entrances to the gen room howeer I don't think it's impossible to defend with a handleful of good players (brutes + tech) but I wouldn't be against removing some of the entrances. Oh yeah right why didn't I think of that...oh because I'm just not that good. Are you 10? If ALL INV stations were destroyable then it would be ok but they are not, if we compare this situation to DX, the DMB would just spawn FF over and over again, in pub play jugs just spam from afar and clear it. Unfortunately (again) I am speaking from comp play when I speak of the INV station business. I wish there was more synergy between comp players and pub players. There's comp again. Guess not all the comp teams have left yet....perhaps this map will pull them all back. Outlandish, hardly, this map was different, it was a much more challenging map before, it has been simplified, opened up and made pointless. It is becoming the same as all the other maps. Outlandish...lol The thing that would pull them back is vector thrusting and more maps for starters, some want regen gone, health packs and vehicle design. AEnubis posted a well thought out statement about all that stuff in another thread. No the game is NOT about autos, not with the name of Tribes in it. People like me, what?...who's outlandish?....I never complained about Bella, not that I recall. I didn't like it as much in it's last version where the gens were impossible to defend...I just adjusted and went O all the time, f the gens on that version...I never complained or made foolish suggestions to make is easier either. I am not clear what you mean about autos here though, what does my disliking of their dominance have to do with Bella in the least? When i said that statement about bella, I meant that pubbers spitting out random statements about maps can be dangerous and really mess stuff up, but you said you didn't so I was wrong in my assumption. Typically spinfusor hero's have a different view point on this game and that view point would completely mess everything up usually, typically honorfusor people are fanatics with unreasonable requests. I think the only thing I would change about auto's is giving them a spin up time like they were back in the day. I will say I am upgrading my SEN gear and I played Permafrost a bit last night in that role and it was more fun and interesting. I will leave the hands-on defense to the professionals like you, since us mere mortals have a bit more trouble since the map has been "adjusted" to your vision of a challenging and depth filled game. Perhaps it's time to consider comp maps. Maps designed for the smaller teams, and rotation maps that can be bigger and more complex. Add transports and midway objectives and possibly secondary power sources and deployable transports. Yeah I like depth and scale, I like TA (I've sure played it) but I'd like to see it grow rather than stagnate. I'm one of those players... Oh the sarcasm lol, to recap I agree that there can be coordination in pubs but it's nothing compared to pick up games or scrims and it will never be, but it should be a hell of a lot closer than it is now and that's hirez's fault (i.e. VOIP, command map, better instructional videos in game, etc.). A lot of frustration goes on between the casual gamer and the avid nerd competitor but it's not 100% of either sides fault, a lot of the blame is on how hirez handled connecting casual and competitive gamers. We try a lot via REDDIT pugs (www.playapug.com). I totally agree with it being more in depth however some of what you stated would be for a far grander scale of a game, what you are talking about sounds like you would enjoy Planetside 2 more than tribes ascend. The FPS gamer of today is nothing compared to the FPS gamer of 10 years ago, the majority want life easy and unfortunately the older gamer's have to suffer because the dev's cater to the majority (reward me now) of gamers. One thing that I think should happen is that the team size's for pubs should be reduced to 12v12 so it can be a little more organized. _________________ http://www.twitch.tv/ryukolink#/ Ryukolink playing tribes ascend daily with double the webcam and triple the excitment, heyooooo! We think too much and feel too little More than machinery we need humanity More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness Without these qualities life will be violent and all will be lost
Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:39 pm

Beerzebub Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:48 am Posts: 10 Steam Gamer Name: Beerzebub	Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF] pushbiscuitdeath wrote: Just came to say I like this map a lot more. Same here. Good work! Definitely in the right direction. _________________ meh.
Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:27 pm

Lesteriuse Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:39 pm Posts: 1741 Location: Zagreb, Croatia	Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF] Well, I capped twice(!) on Permafrost a couple of days ago. The map is almost fixed now. The new gen room is absolutely brilliant, it only needs a side-to-side route with the gens up to become a truly good map. _________________ A thread on performance bottlenecks in the engine and what needs to be optimised My blueplate/mid-air nitron montage
Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:31 am

Fingon Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:55 pm Posts: 1468	Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF] Lesteriuse wrote: Well, I capped twice(!) on Permafrost a couple of days ago. The map is almost fixed now. The new gen room is absolutely brilliant, it only needs a side-to-side route with the gens up to become a truly good map. This, open up sides. _________________ Please support the cause for better CTF PUB games! TOP forum Thread Fingon's montages http://www.twitch.tv/Fingonar -Fingon, Flamboyant Teammember.
Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:58 pm

pala Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:40 am Posts: 895	Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF] No side routes are needed to open while gens are on. Any player can trow flag trough forcefields so it becomes a lot easier to grab. Should be no problem. _________________
Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:44 am

Lesteriuse Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:39 pm Posts: 1741 Location: Zagreb, Croatia	Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF] pala wrote: No side routes are needed to open while gens are on. Any player can trow flag trough forcefields so it becomes a lot easier to grab. Should be no problem. Try doing that on a pub. No-one ever even runs PTH on pubs except people that are far too optimistic for their own right like me. You can't even get to the flag that often even for a llama grab because there are ofter five people on the stand, coupled with 6 light turrets and jammers. I'm not asking for a wide open side route, I'm asking for more like the back to front we have right now: a very small door that can be blocked by a single force-field or mine. Easily defensible yet destructable if you can't get 5+ coordinated attackers to attack the gen and nuke the 5 technicians and the two beowulfs in the gen room. _________________ A thread on performance bottlenecks in the engine and what needs to be optimised My blueplate/mid-air nitron montage
Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:35 am

ryukolink Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 am Posts: 1162	Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF] Lesteriuse wrote: pala wrote: No side routes are needed to open while gens are on. Any player can trow flag trough forcefields so it becomes a lot easier to grab. Should be no problem. Try doing that on a pub. No-one ever even runs PTH on pubs except people that are far too optimistic for their own right like me. You can't even get to the flag that often even for a llama grab because there are ofter five people on the stand, coupled with 6 light turrets and jammers. I'm not asking for a wide open side route, I'm asking for more like the back to front we have right now: a very small door that can be blocked by a single force-field or mine. Easily defensible yet destructable if you can't get 5+ coordinated attackers to attack the gen and nuke the 5 technicians and the two beowulfs in the gen room. Mmm... I would rather see a side route available ALL THE TIME even when gen's are up, make the window for error small by making the doorway small. I gave a picture up there and here it is again, I like version 2 because it makes the gen's still important _________________ http://www.twitch.tv/ryukolink#/ Ryukolink playing tribes ascend daily with double the webcam and triple the excitment, heyooooo! We think too much and feel too little More than machinery we need humanity More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness Without these qualities life will be violent and all will be lost
Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:39 pm

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Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

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ryukolink

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 am
Posts: 1162

Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

BsamohT wrote:

I really like the terrain and the general "feel" of this map, but the flag hut still leaves something to be desired. I think you should consider turning the hut 90 degrees, so that the big forcefields are blocking the front to back. The new side route should have another small opening on the other side, but the forcefields on those openings should be removed. I feel that it is absolutely necessary to have a legitimate route - side to side - available with the generator down. The big forcefield that is now on the frost side should be removed to maintain access for e grabs.

you mean side to side route with the gens UP.

_________________
http://www.twitch.tv/ryukolink#/ Ryukolink playing tribes ascend daily with double the webcam and triple the excitment, heyooooo!

We think too much and feel too little
More than machinery we need humanity
More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness
Without these qualities life will be violent and all will be lost

Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:27 am

ryukolink

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 am
Posts: 1162

Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

Version 1 = The back route may not even be possible... this would make gens somewhat important but not as important as in version 2

Version 2 = Easy quasi back routes that might be OP.. but this makes gens very important still

This is the top of the stand, All calls are made as if I was on my flag stand looking towards the enemys flag stand,

Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:41 am

socalPK

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 483
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

ryukolink wrote:

Quote:

This map is well on it's way to becoming a bella 2. Pointless to everyone. Bella tried to be too many things to too many people and in trying to make everyone happy it made no one happy.

Bella was fine, what happened was the mapper tried to appease people's desires and in the end it got all contorted but at least they tried and listened unlike some people.

Um yeah I said that already. We're off to a great start here.

Quote:

It seemed that Permafrost's original intention was to actually make a map that was different from the others, one where defense could, if they worked as a team hold the line and make a real difference. The only real tactic as offense was to pace the attack and clear from outside before entering...which worked extremely well. Funny how few knew it though because they were so programmed in thinking that rushing in should work.

I don't think you play at a competitive level, if you did you would find that this doesn't work on the current or OLD permafrost. Let's be honest here, without VOIP or a smaller public server size (12 or 10 man) the games are disorganized and you get a mismanaged group of noobs to pros. More often than not permafrost is defensive heavy and a turtle map.

Are the changes for comp? Well that makes more sense to me then. All I hear about comp is how many teams are leaving or what idiots non-comp players are from comp players. So I think things are making more sense to me know. Thanks.

Quote:

Now in it's new version the opposite seems to work better than ever...just rush in - alone even, there is no real way to defend unless there is a sizable number of players dedicated to defense. Which (contrary to so many forum complainers about too many tcns) the games and teams I've played on are often very defense light, perhaps that's partly my fault as I often choose the roster with the least tcn's or dmb's if I want to defend.

I think here in lies something more than your "team's roster". Here in lies a fundamental flaw in the way hirez handled educating people and getting people to work as a single unit. You seem to want that unity and cohesion that is really only found at a competitive level. Because, unlike you I have only found it ridiculously easy to defense no matter how many people attack. As it stands in 7v7 competitive play you can just have all 3 people on defense (or 4) kill the LO and incoming people. THe only counter to this is 2-3 INF's, Heavy's get torn up on the way in and die.

There are many ways to work as a team, including without VOIP in a pub, it takes experience and intention. It's not to the same level but it's definitely there and can make all the difference. I have played comp, just not TA comp. Not sure how this matters, I don't want to get into some sort of opinion war here. What I can tell you is that experienced players in pubs can keep the gens down without much effort. And that this new version, like many of the maps leave little for flag defense. If the gens are up...strong D if they are down the D is weak, and this map just got a whole lot easier to take the gens down...what is your argument here? You seem to like that, great...no turtlefest. I am simply saying I think there is room for more in this game and that includes some maps that have additional challenges and more to consider than the flag alone.

Quote:

This map is a real mess without dedicated defense, at least half the team (4-6 min) is needed to babysit the gens and flag not including chasers, at the very least. Defense should not need so many, defense should have the advantage and offense should have the challenge. While a small mix of INF's and Heavy's can still effectively shut down the base entirely, even 1 decent INF now can keep the gen down rather unchallenged. Seems completely pointless to defend at all. Not to mention the ridiculous distance all the base turrets are away from the base which results in them being down most of the game anyway.

I beg to differ about the SINGLE INF shut down. Good games are not made from TURTLE base's. There needs to be a balance and there almost is, there almost is. The map just needs some final tweaks to it, I like that the gens are important but I don't feel like they should be necessary. The Turrets are far away to prevent the game from becoming a complete turtle fest. Back in the day permafrost would end 0-0 after 25 min reg play and 10 min overtime. I don't think you really have the experience to make these statements. They seem misguided from your own personal vendetta desires. I mean we all have personal desires but you seem to only see this from the POV of someone who LOVES gen play and defense.

I have experienced it, perhaps it is a pub manifestation or perhaps you are simply an amazing defender beyond my earthly reach. By balance you mean make the flag easier right? Of course. We can't make the gens much easier than they are now....unless you are defending. C'mon how many entrances does a gen room need? Seriously?

Quote:

I have to ask why are the INV stations still out in the boonies? Before it was to balance the deployable defense (and made a lot of sense), but now that there are countless entrances and vulnerabilities...why the defense handicap still?

Drop inv stations for yourself? Come on now man how can you make a statement like that? INV stations on the stand make it OP for DMB/TCN combo, come on now.

Oh yeah right why didn't I think of that...oh because I'm just not that good. Are you 10?

Quote:

So we've gone from a map that added something different to the rotation to just another undependable vulnerable base. Perhaps I am missing what the intention was (and is) for this map, there must be one to have made it so different in the first place no? What I liked most about it was that it was actually different and creative and made players look at playing a bit differently. Perhaps it was too much for some set in their ways and some small change might have alleviated their rigid aversion a bit but this is a full 180, you may as well have put the gens outside and left the flag on a Kata-like stand. This is NO base, this is an invitation to the enemy to walk right in unchallenged and pointless. Perhaps HR has fallen back on Blitz to mix up the typical tactics a bit so this map can fall in line with the standard version of HR's small map, weak base, team light, auto dominate, concepts of CTF? I thought perhaps with this map and Blitz they were moving to add some depth and growth to the game... VGO!

"There is NO Base" - Dude, you are making OUTLANDISH statements. Have you even played this map in a comp setting? Come on now.

There's comp again. Guess not all the comp teams have left yet....perhaps this map will pull them all back. Outlandish, hardly, this map was different, it was a much more challenging map before, it has been simplified, opened up and made pointless. It is becoming the same as all the other maps. Outlandish...lol

"Auto dominate" - The game is about auto's yes? Are you a spinfusor ONLY user? If so you should not be making statements. People like YOU are the reason Bella got f***. You need to fully understand the game. Balance for COMP and PUB play might be able to follow suit.

No the game is NOT about autos, not with the name of Tribes in it. People like me, what?...who's outlandish?....I never complained about Bella, not that I recall. I didn't like it as much in it's last version where the gens were impossible to defend...I just adjusted and went O all the time, f the gens on that version...I never complained or made foolish suggestions to make is easier either. I am not clear what you mean about autos here though, what does my disliking of their dominance have to do with Bella in the least?

Quote:

I hope I am wrong and the map grows on me, still, even if it does, I am growing tired of all the maps finding their way to be nothing more than cosmetic variants of the same one man "team" tactics.

Permafrost takes a s*** of teamwork from the offense and very little teamwork from defense. I don't think either side should have it easy but rather balanced.

I will say I am upgrading my SEN gear and I played Permafrost a bit last night in that role and it was more fun and interesting. I will leave the hands-on defense to the professionals like you, since us mere mortals have a bit more trouble since the map has been "adjusted" to your vision of a challenging and depth filled game.

Perhaps it's time to consider comp maps. Maps designed for the smaller teams, and rotation maps that can be bigger and more complex. Add transports and midway objectives and possibly secondary power sources and deployable transports. Yeah I like depth and scale, I like TA (I've sure played it) but I'd like to see it grow rather than stagnate. I'm one of those players...

_________________
Tribes: Ascend - NA West
[TBZ]socalpk

Tribes:
{BZ}PK - Team Battlezone

More Game Less Attitude

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:08 am

ryukolink

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 am
Posts: 1162

Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

Are the changes for comp? Well that makes more sense to me then. All I hear about comp is how many teams are leaving or what idiots non-comp players are from comp players. So I think things are making more sense to me know. Thanks.

I think what you are hearing is the NEGATIVE nay sayers talk too much, if you idle in #ascend you probably hear proj and mabel b**** about the game all day, yeah there are a lot of fundamental flaws about the game but we are working with what we got here, fact of the matter is the game is still decent it just needs a larger map pool, I see here there is a large disconnect from pubber to comp player, I'm not being elitest in a common a****** way I'm being elitist in that I want comp to strive, unfortunately the pubber pays the price because HiRez doesn't have other tactical measures in place to INCREASE teamwork.

There are many ways to work as a team, including without VOIP in a pub, it takes experience and intention. It's not to the same level but it's definitely there and can make all the difference. I have played comp, just not TA comp. Not sure how this matters, I don't want to get into some sort of opinion war here. What I can tell you is that experienced players in pubs can keep the gens down without much effort. And that this new version, like many of the maps leave little for flag defense. If the gens are up...strong D if they are down the D is weak, and this map just got a whole lot easier to take the gens down...what is your argument here? You seem to like that, great...no turtlefest. I am simply saying I think there is room for more in this game and that includes some maps that have additional challenges and more to consider than the flag alone.

I'm all for in depthness, I just don't want GEN play to be mandatory, some people (not myself) feel like GEN's shouldn't even be in competitive play; now to go back to what you said before, I agree.. There should be COMP and PUB maps, separate entities from one another, almost like a "COMP" mod for the game but we aren't going to get that so we have to work with what we have unfortunately.

I have experienced it, perhaps it is a pub manifestation or perhaps you are simply an amazing defender beyond my earthly reach. By balance you mean make the flag easier right? Of course. We can't make the gens much easier than they are now....unless you are defending. C'mon how many entrances does a gen room need? Seriously?

I would be ok with removing half the Gen room entrances IF there was an offsite entrance to the gen room like the cave in katabatic. As it stands now at a public standpoint if you get 3-4 snipers just sniping LO down with some LD they won't ever make it in. If you added an offsite entrance to the gen room you could get rid of half the entrances on the base and things would be a little different. I agree, there are a lot of entrances to the gen room howeer I don't think it's impossible to defend with a handleful of good players (brutes + tech) but I wouldn't be against removing some of the entrances.

Oh yeah right why didn't I think of that...oh because I'm just not that good. Are you 10?

If ALL INV stations were destroyable then it would be ok but they are not, if we compare this situation to DX, the DMB would just spawn FF over and over again, in pub play jugs just spam from afar and clear it. Unfortunately (again) I am speaking from comp play when I speak of the INV station business. I wish there was more synergy between comp players and pub players.

There's comp again. Guess not all the comp teams have left yet....perhaps this map will pull them all back. Outlandish, hardly, this map was different, it was a much more challenging map before, it has been simplified, opened up and made pointless. It is becoming the same as all the other maps. Outlandish...lol

The thing that would pull them back is vector thrusting and more maps for starters, some want regen gone, health packs and vehicle design. AEnubis posted a well thought out statement about all that stuff in another thread.

No the game is NOT about autos, not with the name of Tribes in it. People like me, what?...who's outlandish?....I never complained about Bella, not that I recall. I didn't like it as much in it's last version where the gens were impossible to defend...I just adjusted and went O all the time, f the gens on that version...I never complained or made foolish suggestions to make is easier either. I am not clear what you mean about autos here though, what does my disliking of their dominance have to do with Bella in the least?

When i said that statement about bella, I meant that pubbers spitting out random statements about maps can be dangerous and really mess stuff up, but you said you didn't so I was wrong in my assumption. Typically spinfusor hero's have a different view point on this game and that view point would completely mess everything up usually, typically honorfusor people are fanatics with unreasonable requests. I think the only thing I would change about auto's is giving them a spin up time like they were back in the day.

I will say I am upgrading my SEN gear and I played Permafrost a bit last night in that role and it was more fun and interesting. I will leave the hands-on defense to the professionals like you, since us mere mortals have a bit more trouble since the map has been "adjusted" to your vision of a challenging and depth filled game.

Perhaps it's time to consider comp maps. Maps designed for the smaller teams, and rotation maps that can be bigger and more complex. Add transports and midway objectives and possibly secondary power sources and deployable transports. Yeah I like depth and scale, I like TA (I've sure played it) but I'd like to see it grow rather than stagnate. I'm one of those players...

Oh the sarcasm lol, to recap I agree that there can be coordination in pubs but it's nothing compared to pick up games or scrims and it will never be, but it should be a hell of a lot closer than it is now and that's hirez's fault (i.e. VOIP, command map, better instructional videos in game, etc.). A lot of frustration goes on between the casual gamer and the avid nerd competitor but it's not 100% of either sides fault, a lot of the blame is on how hirez handled connecting casual and competitive gamers. We try a lot via REDDIT pugs (www.playapug.com).

I totally agree with it being more in depth however some of what you stated would be for a far grander scale of a game, what you are talking about sounds like you would enjoy Planetside 2 more than tribes ascend. The FPS gamer of today is nothing compared to the FPS gamer of 10 years ago, the majority want life easy and unfortunately the older gamer's have to suffer because the dev's cater to the majority (reward me now) of gamers. One thing that I think should happen is that the team size's for pubs should be reduced to 12v12 so it can be a little more organized.

Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:39 pm

Beerzebub

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 10
Steam Gamer Name: Beerzebub

Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

pushbiscuitdeath wrote:

Just came to say I like this map a lot more.

Same here. Good work! Definitely in the right direction.

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Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:27 pm

Lesteriuse

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:39 pm
Posts: 1741
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

Well, I capped twice(!) on Permafrost a couple of days ago. The map is almost fixed now.

The new gen room is absolutely brilliant, it only needs a side-to-side route with the gens up to become a truly good map.

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Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:31 am

Fingon

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:55 pm
Posts: 1468

Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

Lesteriuse wrote:

This, open up sides.

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Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:58 pm

pala

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:40 am
Posts: 895

Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

No side routes are needed to open while gens are on. Any player can trow flag trough forcefields so it becomes a lot easier to grab. Should be no problem.

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Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:44 am

Lesteriuse

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:39 pm
Posts: 1741
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

pala wrote:

No side routes are needed to open while gens are on. Any player can trow flag trough forcefields so it becomes a lot easier to grab. Should be no problem.

Try doing that on a pub.

No-one ever even runs PTH on pubs except people that are far too optimistic for their own right like me. You can't even get to the flag that often even for a llama grab because there are ofter five people on the stand, coupled with 6 light turrets and jammers.

I'm not asking for a wide open side route, I'm asking for more like the back to front we have right now: a very small door that can be blocked by a single force-field or mine. Easily defensible yet destructable if you can't get 5+ coordinated attackers to attack the gen and nuke the 5 technicians and the two beowulfs in the gen room.

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Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:35 am

ryukolink

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 am
Posts: 1162

Re: Map Feedback - Permafrost [CTF]

Lesteriuse wrote:

pala wrote:

No side routes are needed to open while gens are on. Any player can trow flag trough forcefields so it becomes a lot easier to grab. Should be no problem.

Mmm... I would rather see a side route available ALL THE TIME even when gen's are up, make the window for error small by making the doorway small. I gave a picture up there and here it is again, I like version 2 because it makes the gen's still important

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:39 pm