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Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.
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TDude Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:15 pm Posts: 209	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. Whitewhale wrote: i havent played with pandemix but from his posts he clearly knows what he is talking about and basically says the same stuff as the best chaser in oceania, iago the man is correct I agree that he knows what he's talking about, but it's still not cut and dry. Even this is confusing: Pandemix wrote: Listening to any of the above would be better than listening to their internal testers who though nerfing nitrons and junking the LAR for a month was a good idea... <...> Flag drag is not a good idea, it would make this game even more clunky than it already is. Saying "listening to any of the above" would imply that the many posts asking for flag drag are just as important to consider. Obviously you don't feel that way, so don't say that! What you really mean is "listen to this core group I can tell know what they're talking about." Which is fine, but most people feel this way and feel that the people who know what they're talking about are the ones that agree with their view. I still think there are so many players saying "I know how to fix this!" that it's understandable that this feedback is only moderately useful. Players have been saying chasing is broken for months, and it has been made worse, I agree. But this isn't the same issue as "we all hate hitscan, please fix it!" That feedback was easy to gauge. "Chasing is broken, fix it" with 10 different major suggestions on how to fix it in a subjective way is absolutely more complex.
Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:19 pm

Moriandus Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:52 pm Posts: 11	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. TDude wrote: It's not as simple as you make it sound. They do pay attention, it's obvious from their track record, but they can't be expected to listen to everything/everyone. Not everyone agrees on what the problem is with chasing, let alone what the solution should be. It's not simple, and they have made changes based on player feedback. I completely grant and appreciate that. What's bothering me is that something like the nitron nerf made it through their QA and into the game, despite numerous players telling them how boneheaded it was. Several weeks in now, and they haven't acknowledged there's a problem, let alone what their plans are to fix it, despite the community offering about half a dozen viable solutions. TDude wrote: Who should they listen to? The best chasers in the game? The best cappers? Both likely have biases. Someone amazing at both? How many players are like that, and are they actually good at taking in the big picture? I think they all mostly agree. So, yes, all of them. TDude wrote: I don't have a big opinion about the chasing issue myself. I just don't think most players have a good grasp of how difficult it is to make changes that work. That's fine that you don't have an opinion. This is sort of a blanket appeal to presumed authority/expertise, though, and is fallacious. Lots of people who are extremely frustrated right now do have a very healthy appreciation for how difficult balancing a game like this is. It's been reflected in several very well thought out proposals that have, by all appearances, fallen on deaf ears. If anything, it's the HiRez QA department that doesn't have the correct level of respect for the difficulty of balancing the game, as evidenced by numerous heavy-handed and shortsighted changes (like the ones in this last patch) that make one wonder if they really understand the finer points of their own game's mechanics. Yes there are a lot of people saying, "I know how to fix this!" that don't know what they're talking about. There are definitely some that do, though, and they should not be discounted. ninja-edit: My tone is way rantier than I intended for it to be, apologies for that. I'm just passionate about the whole tribes franchise, and was really starting to feel good about T:A, and this last patch came and bludgeoned me right in the faith organ. I want the game to be the best it can be, and I understand that a lot of this is subjective, but these recent changes are bordering on objectively bad.
Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:00 pm

Whitewhale Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:09 pm Posts: 3560	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. u summed up my feelings very well in that last paragraph Quote: Who should they listen to? The best chasers in the game? The best cappers? Both likely have biases. Someone amazing at both? How many players are like that, and are they actually good at taking in the big picture? most top chasers can also cap and most top cappers can chase, the skills cross over very well i was (retired from comp) a comp capper and my best mate irl was our chaser, we both say the same s***, and have for months....there has been alot of consensus amongst the elite players as to what to do with chasing (ignoring proj and zprotoss who are strange) the suggestions, the gameplan etc is all there and NOTHING, no feedback, no discussions of plans, no nothing
Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:12 pm

TDude Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:15 pm Posts: 209	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. Moriandus wrote: That's fine that you don't have an opinion. This is sort of a blanket appeal to presumed authority/expertise, though, and is fallacious. It's not fallacious, it's relevant. I didn't put forth a solution or feedback on the problem. I brought up an issue I have with the way feedback is being presented. My statement was important to help make that distinction. The OP had a reasonable reaction and decent feedback. We received a patch to boost disc jumps that players have been asking for. GREAT! But there's this hole in the patch where nitron's were nerfed for no good reason. It hurt chasing a lot. It's detailed and easy to gauge whether it's accurate or not. They can test it more internally. When people throw down a bullet list of changes they "know" will improve the game, it gets way more subjective. Players shouldn't expect them to test all of those things from all the different perspectives.
Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:24 am

Moriandus Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:52 pm Posts: 11	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. TDude wrote: When people throw down a bullet list of changes they "know" will improve the game, it gets way more subjective. That's definitely true, but.. TDude wrote: Players shouldn't expect them to test all of those things from all the different perspectives. That's not what we're asking for. We're asking for them to test any of them. (And also to test their own changes so that we don't end up in situations like this in the first place. The nitron change was nearly unanimously heralded as bad as soon as it was announced in the week(s) leading up to the patch, but it still made it in, and had exactly the effects the players predicted.)
Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:56 pm

VashTHT Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:28 pm Posts: 1185	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. Moriandus wrote: TDude wrote: When people throw down a bullet list of changes they "know" will improve the game, it gets way more subjective. That's definitely true, but.. TDude wrote: Players shouldn't expect them to test all of those things from all the different perspectives. That's not what we're asking for. We're asking for them to test any of them. (And also to test their own changes so that we don't end up in situations like this in the first place. The nitron change was nearly unanimously heralded as bad as soon as it was announced in the week(s) leading up to the patch, but it still made it in, and had exactly the effects the players predicted.) This whole impulse boost and Nitron change just wasn't thought out. The problem is Cappers can regenerate on their runs, so it doesn't really matter what you do, they'll just ski around a little more until they've got their life back. _________________ ... it got a nice ring to it, don't ya think?
Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:06 pm

SkepticTA Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm Posts: 3062	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. I just noticed that before the patch, the momentum transfer value for LSF was 85000. After the patch, it is still 85000. So if that didn't change, where does the buff come from? It has to be a core buff to momentum transfer. So if the patch adjusted nitrons to have the same boost economy as a LSF and explosive nitron, then perhaps they are still the best for top speed if used properly in succession? Boosting gives you speed in 2 ways; greater acceleration on the rise coupled with gravitational acceleration on the fall. It is possible that 5 compact nitron jumps have a greater net gain in speed than a single explosive nitron. It would make sense that doing a series of smaller boosts is more difficult than a single large boost, and so your speed gain is determined by the method used. Has anyone experimented with this? _________________ (AHK) T:A Physics Profiler
Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:02 am

TMar Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:38 am Posts: 26	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. Obnokshus wrote: Flag drag will not work with current gameplay due to what has been stated previously ; SEN would have an even easier time sniping flag carriers. Easy Fix since sent is quite OP ATM, nurf sents along with it.
Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:58 am

Pandemix Beta Tester Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:53 am Posts: 509	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. TDude wrote: Saying "listening to any of the above" would imply that the many posts asking for flag drag are just as important to consider. Obviously you don't feel that way, so don't say that! What you really mean is "listen to this core group I can tell know what they're talking about." Which is fine, but most people feel this way and feel that the people who know what they're talking about are the ones that agree with their view. I still think there are so many players saying "I know how to fix this!" that it's understandable that this feedback is only moderately useful. Players have been saying chasing is broken for months, and it has been made worse, I agree. But this isn't the same issue as "we all hate hitscan, please fix it!" That feedback was easy to gauge. "Chasing is broken, fix it" with 10 different major suggestions on how to fix it in a subjective way is absolutely more complex. I was referring to the "should we listen to top cappers and chasers" part. They are far more knowledgeable to how those mechanics work than their internal testers, which is blatantly obvious. That's why no top players are begging for flag drag, because it's not a good idea and even if it was hi rez is far too incompetent with game blancing to implement it properly. It would have a chain reaction on core game play that they couldn't foresee and since they won't institute test servers for patches they will never be able to. Like i said in another post...when a car manufacturer builds a new car they don't get granny down the street to test drive it, they use a professional driver to take it to it limits. Patches in this game are tested by people that are at best mediocre at tribes, so they don't get the feedback to see all the consequences of their changes. _________________
Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:36 am

SkepticTA Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm Posts: 3062	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. I am not a top capper, and I say to hell with flag drag. It is an awkward, contrived mechanic that would criminally molest the continuity of flag play. Probably the worst idea I've ever heard for T:A. I mean people say that about a lot of things but this has a real chance at being the most awful thing that anyone could do to any video game EVER. _________________ (AHK) T:A Physics Profiler
Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:09 am

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Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

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TDude

Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:15 pm
Posts: 209

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

Whitewhale wrote:

i havent played with pandemix but from his posts he clearly knows what he is talking about and basically says the same stuff as the best chaser in oceania, iago

the man is correct

I agree that he knows what he's talking about, but it's still not cut and dry. Even this is confusing:

Pandemix wrote:

Listening to any of the above would be better than listening to their internal testers who though nerfing nitrons and junking the LAR for a month was a good idea...

<...>

Flag drag is not a good idea, it would make this game even more clunky than it already is.

Saying "listening to any of the above" would imply that the many posts asking for flag drag are just as important to consider. Obviously you don't feel that way, so don't say that! What you really mean is "listen to this core group I can tell know what they're talking about." Which is fine, but most people feel this way and feel that the people who know what they're talking about are the ones that agree with their view.

I still think there are so many players saying "I know how to fix this!" that it's understandable that this feedback is only moderately useful. Players have been saying chasing is broken for months, and it has been made worse, I agree. But this isn't the same issue as "we all hate hitscan, please fix it!" That feedback was easy to gauge. "Chasing is broken, fix it" with 10 different major suggestions on how to fix it in a subjective way is absolutely more complex.

Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:19 pm

Moriandus

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:52 pm
Posts: 11

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

TDude wrote:

It's not as simple as you make it sound. They do pay attention, it's obvious from their track record, but they can't be expected to listen to everything/everyone. Not everyone agrees on what the problem is with chasing, let alone what the solution should be.

It's not simple, and they have made changes based on player feedback. I completely grant and appreciate that. What's bothering me is that something like the nitron nerf made it through their QA and into the game, despite numerous players telling them how boneheaded it was. Several weeks in now, and they haven't acknowledged there's a problem, let alone what their plans are to fix it, despite the community offering about half a dozen viable solutions.

TDude wrote:

Who should they listen to? The best chasers in the game? The best cappers? Both likely have biases. Someone amazing at both? How many players are like that, and are they actually good at taking in the big picture?

I think they all mostly agree. So, yes, all of them.

TDude wrote:

I don't have a big opinion about the chasing issue myself. I just don't think most players have a good grasp of how difficult it is to make changes that work.

That's fine that you don't have an opinion. This is sort of a blanket appeal to presumed authority/expertise, though, and is fallacious. Lots of people who are extremely frustrated right now do have a very healthy appreciation for how difficult balancing a game like this is. It's been reflected in several very well thought out proposals that have, by all appearances, fallen on deaf ears. If anything, it's the HiRez QA department that doesn't have the correct level of respect for the difficulty of balancing the game, as evidenced by numerous heavy-handed and shortsighted changes (like the ones in this last patch) that make one wonder if they really understand the finer points of their own game's mechanics.

Yes there are a lot of people saying, "I know how to fix this!" that don't know what they're talking about. There are definitely some that do, though, and they should not be discounted.

ninja-edit: My tone is way rantier than I intended for it to be, apologies for that. I'm just passionate about the whole tribes franchise, and was really starting to feel good about T:A, and this last patch came and bludgeoned me right in the faith organ. I want the game to be the best it can be, and I understand that a lot of this is subjective, but these recent changes are bordering on objectively bad.

Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:00 pm

Whitewhale

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:09 pm
Posts: 3560

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

u summed up my feelings very well in that last paragraph

Quote:

most top chasers can also cap and most top cappers can chase, the skills cross over very well

i was (retired from comp) a comp capper and my best mate irl was our chaser, we both say the same s***, and have for months....there has been alot of consensus amongst the elite players as to what to do with chasing (ignoring proj and zprotoss who are strange)

the suggestions, the gameplan etc is all there

and NOTHING, no feedback, no discussions of plans, no nothing

Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:12 pm

TDude

Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:15 pm
Posts: 209

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

Moriandus wrote:

That's fine that you don't have an opinion. This is sort of a blanket appeal to presumed authority/expertise, though, and is fallacious.

It's not fallacious, it's relevant. I didn't put forth a solution or feedback on the problem. I brought up an issue I have with the way feedback is being presented. My statement was important to help make that distinction.

The OP had a reasonable reaction and decent feedback. We received a patch to boost disc jumps that players have been asking for. GREAT! But there's this hole in the patch where nitron's were nerfed for no good reason. It hurt chasing a lot.

It's detailed and easy to gauge whether it's accurate or not. They can test it more internally. When people throw down a bullet list of changes they "know" will improve the game, it gets way more subjective. Players shouldn't expect them to test all of those things from all the different perspectives.

Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:24 am

Moriandus

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:52 pm
Posts: 11

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

TDude wrote:

When people throw down a bullet list of changes they "know" will improve the game, it gets way more subjective.

That's definitely true, but..

TDude wrote:

Players shouldn't expect them to test all of those things from all the different perspectives.

That's not what we're asking for. We're asking for them to test any of them.

(And also to test their own changes so that we don't end up in situations like this in the first place. The nitron change was nearly unanimously heralded as bad as soon as it was announced in the week(s) leading up to the patch, but it still made it in, and had exactly the effects the players predicted.)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:56 pm

VashTHT

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:28 pm
Posts: 1185

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

Moriandus wrote:

TDude wrote:

When people throw down a bullet list of changes they "know" will improve the game, it gets way more subjective.

That's definitely true, but..

TDude wrote:

Players shouldn't expect them to test all of those things from all the different perspectives.

This whole impulse boost and Nitron change just wasn't thought out. The problem is Cappers can regenerate on their runs, so it doesn't really matter what you do, they'll just ski around a little more until they've got their life back.

_________________

... it got a nice ring to it, don't ya think?

Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:06 pm

SkepticTA

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 3062

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

I just noticed that before the patch, the momentum transfer value for LSF was 85000. After the patch, it is still 85000. So if that didn't change, where does the buff come from? It has to be a core buff to momentum transfer.

So if the patch adjusted nitrons to have the same boost economy as a LSF and explosive nitron, then perhaps they are still the best for top speed if used properly in succession? Boosting gives you speed in 2 ways; greater acceleration on the rise coupled with gravitational acceleration on the fall. It is possible that 5 compact nitron jumps have a greater net gain in speed than a single explosive nitron. It would make sense that doing a series of smaller boosts is more difficult than a single large boost, and so your speed gain is determined by the method used.

Has anyone experimented with this?

_________________

(AHK) T:A Physics Profiler

Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:02 am

TMar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:38 am
Posts: 26

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

Obnokshus wrote:

Flag drag will not work with current gameplay due to what has been stated previously ; SEN would have an even easier time sniping flag carriers.

Easy Fix since sent is quite OP ATM, nurf sents along with it.

Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:58 am

Pandemix

Beta Tester

Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:53 am
Posts: 509

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

TDude wrote:

I was referring to the "should we listen to top cappers and chasers" part. They are far more knowledgeable to how those mechanics work than their internal testers, which is blatantly obvious. That's why no top players are begging for flag drag, because it's not a good idea and even if it was hi rez is far too incompetent with game blancing to implement it properly. It would have a chain reaction on core game play that they couldn't foresee and since they won't institute test servers for patches they will never be able to.

Like i said in another post...when a car manufacturer builds a new car they don't get granny down the street to test drive it, they use a professional driver to take it to it limits. Patches in this game are tested by people that are at best mediocre at tribes, so they don't get the feedback to see all the consequences of their changes.

_________________

Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:36 am

SkepticTA

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 3062

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

I am not a top capper, and I say to hell with flag drag. It is an awkward, contrived mechanic that would criminally molest the continuity of flag play. Probably the worst idea I've ever heard for T:A. I mean people say that about a lot of things but this has a real chance at being the most awful thing that anyone could do to any video game EVER.

_________________

(AHK) T:A Physics Profiler

Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:09 am

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Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.