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Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.
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blakey88 Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:48 am Posts: 321	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. To be honest the best games I played are the ones without capper doing 300+ front to back and lots of flag action (e-grabs, returns, clutches). Its just more grounded. I escort our own slow cappers to fend off chasers, lots of explosive action each time a new chaser joins the fight, mortars, smoking shrikes all over the place. As a slow capper you don't feel so safe because theres a long way home and that blue plate you just did on your chaser mattered so much. And if you`re happen to be midfield at the time of the grab you still got a chance to intercept and you don`t feel as unable to do anything because hes way up there in sky where only sniper can touch him. Your team still have time to react and e-grab. So I would support adding flag drag to slow capper to more reasonable speeds. I would suggest it to be tied to the speed instead of a constant force. The faster you go the stronger is the deacceleration (stronger drag). So cappers will still need to be fast on he grab (besides the advantage of less visible time). A 350 capper slows down to about 300 after a second, at 260 after another sec, at 230 after another, 210..., 200.. and it cuts off after that. So he will get away fast from the enemy base but easier to intercept midfield where he'll need a escort or pass the flag to a another route running capper. Maybe we will see an emerging gameplay of needing those two tandem routes to cap. flag passes are always exciting to spectators. All this will increase teamplay and maybe then we can have bigger 12v12 for an even more exciting matches in the comp scene. Roles like 2nd capper (the one who keeps the flag alive) and midfield chaser/vinterceptor may be needed. edit: the formula for what I suggested is something of negative accelration = (0.5 - 1/(sp/100))*235.8 where sp is he current speed with the flag. This gives 50kmh at speed of 350, 40 on 300 and so on and goes negative past 200 so it cuts off. Last edited by blakey88 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:22 pm

Lesteriuse Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:39 pm Posts: 1749 Location: Zagreb, Croatia	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. SkepticTA wrote: I am not a top capper, and I say to hell with flag drag. It is an awkward, contrived mechanic that would criminally molest the continuity of flag play. Probably the worst idea I've ever heard for T:A. I mean people say that about a lot of things but this has a real chance at being the most awful thing that anyone could do to any video game EVER. Flag drag would be a bad band-aid in the case Hi-Rez gave up on considering ski friction entirely and still wanted to fix chasing somehow. That would be a bad decision, and it's only to be expected that the band-aid would be bad as well. _________________ A thread on performance bottlenecks in the engine and what needs to be optimised My blueplate/mid-air nitron montage
Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:28 pm

SkepticTA Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm Posts: 3062	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. Lesteriuse wrote: SkepticTA wrote: I am not a top capper, and I say to hell with flag drag. It is an awkward, contrived mechanic that would criminally molest the continuity of flag play. Probably the worst idea I've ever heard for T:A. I mean people say that about a lot of things but this has a real chance at being the most awful thing that anyone could do to any video game EVER. Flag drag would be a bad band-aid in the case Hi-Rez gave up on considering ski friction entirely and still wanted to fix chasing somehow. That would be a bad decision, and it's only to be expected that the band-aid would be bad as well. Honestly it would be a bad band-aid no matter what, and I suspect that ski friction has always been off the table for HiRez. My favorite suggestion so far (credit: pala) is to institute diminishing returns on self-impulse with increasing speeds. Just like the thrust pack, if you're already going 200 then the boost will do very little. This could potentially allow LW to impart an impulse buff without a tacked on penalty. _________________ (AHK) T:A Physics Profiler
Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:58 pm

ThyMushroom Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:20 pm Posts: 520	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. SkepticTA wrote: My favorite suggestion so far (credit: pala) is to institute diminishing returns on self-impulse with increasing speeds. Just like the thrust pack, if you're already going 200 then the boost will do very little. This could potentially allow LW to impart an impulse buff without a tacked on penalty. Interesting post you have made there, because that's a bad idea as it would make SENs broken beyond broken and even more impossible to balance than they already are. But hidden in your bad idea is a brilliant idea. Instead of punishing players for going fast by implementing some scaling self impulse penalty that inceases as players go faster, do exactly the opposite and give a scaling bonus that increases for how slow a person starts out. That could seriously buff chasing as well as fix one of the biggest balance inssues T:A has with the other tribes games. In older Tribes games it was easy to accelerate, hard to keep your speed. In T:A it's p* easy to keep your speed but accelerating requires more effort. This is the prime reason T:A chasing has been so broken since once someone gets the flag at 300 sanics there really isn't anything the other team can do. _________________ "Pain first, Shazbot second."
Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:29 pm

TheBoz Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:43 pm Posts: 294 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Steam Gamer Name: The Boz	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. ThyMushroom wrote: Interesting post you have made there, because that's a bad idea as it would make SENs broken beyond broken and even more impossible to balance than they already are. But hidden in your bad idea is a brilliant idea. Instead of punishing players for going fast by implementing some scaling self impulse penalty that inceases as players go faster, do exactly the opposite and give a scaling bonus that increases for how slow a person starts out. That could seriously buff chasing as well as fix one of the biggest balance inssues T:A has with the other tribes games. How does "lower impulse if you're standing still" help chasing? _________________ MAKE LOVE, NOT SPAM!
Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:36 pm

ThyMushroom Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:20 pm Posts: 520	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. TheBoz wrote: ThyMushroom wrote: Interesting post you have made there, because that's a bad idea as it would make SENs broken beyond broken and even more impossible to balance than they already are. But hidden in your bad idea is a brilliant idea. Instead of punishing players for going fast by implementing some scaling self impulse penalty that inceases as players go faster, do exactly the opposite and give a scaling bonus that increases for how slow a person starts out. That could seriously buff chasing as well as fix one of the biggest balance inssues T:A has with the other tribes games. How does "lower impulse if you're standing still" help chasing? Look up the word "Scaling" in the dictionary and then come back and reread my post. That post there does not mean what you think it means. Not even close. _________________ "Pain first, Shazbot second."
Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:53 pm

ThyMushroom Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:20 pm Posts: 520	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. Bumping thread because latest update changed nothing. Nitrons are critical to chasing. Adding minor buffs to rage does not make up for the loss and at this point only buffs rage/phase SENs. _________________ "Pain first, Shazbot second."
Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:58 pm

Whitewhale Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:09 pm Posts: 3556	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. i havent found that to be true at all new rage is perfect for chasing, u can get to 280-290 with 1 explosive nitron and 270 with 1 DJ thats plenty in our tests we were chasing down clean 240 backcaps on DD which was previously completely impossible
Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:45 pm

ThyMushroom Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:20 pm Posts: 520	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. Whitewhale wrote: i havent found that to be true at all new rage is perfect for chasing, u can get to 280-290 with 1 explosive nitron and 270 with 1 DJ thats plenty in our tests we were chasing down clean 240 backcaps on DD which was previously completely impossible That's still not as good as it was before. of course the +20% will help a little but not enough IMO to make a difference. The biggest problem I see is that to get good acceleration it requires one very damaging jump instead of 2 non self damaging boosts. If the capper uses a hill or something happens to make him rapidly change direction you become totally screwed. It gives the chaser less leeway. Now if they would only implement rage self-damage immunity, then chasing would be fixed. _________________ "Pain first, Shazbot second."
Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:10 am

nomadchaser Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:24 am Posts: 396	Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy. Now there's an idea. How about this, rework Rage to provide four bonuses upon activation: 1. 20% mass reduction for 10 seconds (same as it is now) 2. 25% health refill on activation (same as it is now) 3. 50% energy refill on activation (in lieu of the energy regen bonus) 4. 60% self-damage reduction for 10 seconds The idea is to make the perk less overpowered in the hands of snipers and more practical in the hands of chasers. Also, by making it a percentage of reduction and not total immunity, it leaves egocentric viable (even attractive) as a paired perk. Edit: then all you've gotta do is make it only activate when the flag is taken from the stand area and we'll be pigs in clover
Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:57 am

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Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

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blakey88

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:48 am
Posts: 321

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

To be honest the best games I played are the ones
without capper doing 300+ front to back and lots
of flag action (e-grabs, returns, clutches). Its just
more grounded.

I escort our own slow cappers to fend off chasers,
lots of explosive action each time a new chaser joins
the fight, mortars, smoking shrikes all over the place.
As a slow capper you don't feel so safe because theres
a long way home and that blue plate you just did
on your chaser mattered so much.

And if you`re happen to be midfield at the time of the
grab you still got a chance to intercept and you don`t
feel as unable to do anything because hes way up
there in sky where only sniper can touch him.
Your team still have time to react and e-grab.

So I would support adding flag drag to slow capper
to more reasonable speeds. I would suggest it to
be tied to the speed instead of a constant force.
The faster you go the stronger is the deacceleration
(stronger drag). So cappers will still need to be fast
on he grab (besides the advantage of less visible time).

A 350 capper slows down to about 300
after a second, at 260 after another sec, at 230
after another, 210..., 200.. and it cuts off after that.
So he will get away fast from the enemy base but
easier to intercept midfield where he'll need a escort
or pass the flag to a another route running capper.
Maybe we will see an emerging gameplay of needing
those two tandem routes to cap. flag passes are
always exciting to spectators.

All this will increase teamplay and maybe then we can
have bigger 12v12 for an even more exciting matches
in the comp scene. Roles like 2nd capper (the one who
keeps the flag alive) and midfield chaser/vinterceptor
may be needed.

edit: the formula for what I suggested is something of
negative accelration = (0.5 - 1/(sp/100))*235.8
where sp is he current speed with the flag.
This gives 50kmh at speed of 350, 40 on
300 and so on and goes negative past 200
so it cuts off.

Last edited by blakey88 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:22 pm

Lesteriuse

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:39 pm
Posts: 1749
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

SkepticTA wrote:

I am not a top capper, and I say to hell with flag drag. It is an awkward, contrived mechanic that would criminally molest the continuity of flag play. Probably the worst idea I've ever heard for T:A. I mean people say that about a lot of things but this has a real chance at being the most awful thing that anyone could do to any video game EVER.

Flag drag would be a bad band-aid in the case Hi-Rez gave up on considering ski friction entirely and still wanted to fix chasing somehow.

That would be a bad decision, and it's only to be expected that the band-aid would be bad as well.

_________________

A thread on performance bottlenecks in the engine and what needs to be optimised
My blueplate/mid-air nitron montage

Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:28 pm

SkepticTA

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 3062

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

Lesteriuse wrote:

SkepticTA wrote:

Honestly it would be a bad band-aid no matter what, and I suspect that ski friction has always been off the table for HiRez.

My favorite suggestion so far (credit: pala) is to institute diminishing returns on self-impulse with increasing speeds. Just like the thrust pack, if you're already going 200 then the boost will do very little. This could potentially allow LW to impart an impulse buff without a tacked on penalty.

_________________

(AHK) T:A Physics Profiler

Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:58 pm

ThyMushroom

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:20 pm
Posts: 520

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

SkepticTA wrote:

My favorite suggestion so far (credit: pala) is to institute diminishing returns on self-impulse with increasing speeds. Just like the thrust pack, if you're already going 200 then the boost will do very little. This could potentially allow LW to impart an impulse buff without a tacked on penalty.

Interesting post you have made there, because that's a bad idea as it would make SENs broken beyond broken and even more impossible to balance than they already are. But hidden in your bad idea is a brilliant idea. Instead of punishing players for going fast by implementing some scaling self impulse penalty that inceases as players go faster, do exactly the opposite and give a scaling bonus that increases for how slow a person starts out. That could seriously buff chasing as well as fix one of the biggest balance inssues T:A has with the other tribes games.

**In older Tribes games it was easy to accelerate, hard to keep your speed. In T:A it's p*** easy to keep your speed but accelerating requires more effort. This is the prime reason T:A chasing has been so broken since once someone gets the flag at 300 sanics there really isn't anything the other team can do.

_________________
"Pain first, Shazbot second."

Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:29 pm

TheBoz

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:43 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Steam Gamer Name: The Boz

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

ThyMushroom wrote:

How does "lower impulse if you're standing still" help chasing?

_________________
MAKE LOVE, NOT SPAM!

Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:36 pm

ThyMushroom

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:20 pm
Posts: 520

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

TheBoz wrote:

ThyMushroom wrote:

How does "lower impulse if you're standing still" help chasing?

Look up the word "Scaling" in the dictionary and then come back and reread my post.

That post there does not mean what you think it means. Not even close.

_________________
"Pain first, Shazbot second."

Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:53 pm

ThyMushroom

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:20 pm
Posts: 520

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

Bumping thread because latest update changed nothing.

Nitrons are critical to chasing. Adding minor buffs to rage does not make up for the loss and at this point only buffs rage/phase SENs.

_________________
"Pain first, Shazbot second."

Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:58 pm

Whitewhale

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:09 pm
Posts: 3556

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

i havent found that to be true at all

new rage is perfect for chasing, u can get to 280-290 with 1 explosive nitron and 270 with 1 DJ

thats plenty

in our tests we were chasing down clean 240 backcaps on DD which was previously completely impossible

Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:45 pm

ThyMushroom

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:20 pm
Posts: 520

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

Whitewhale wrote:

That's still not as good as it was before. of course the +20% will help a little but not enough IMO to make a difference.

The biggest problem I see is that to get good acceleration it requires one very damaging jump instead of 2 non self damaging boosts. If the capper uses a hill or something happens to make him rapidly change direction you become totally screwed. It gives the chaser less leeway.

Now if they would only implement rage self-damage immunity, then chasing would be fixed.

_________________
"Pain first, Shazbot second."

Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:10 am

nomadchaser

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:24 am
Posts: 396

Re: Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.

Now there's an idea. How about this, rework Rage to provide four bonuses upon activation:

1. 20% mass reduction for 10 seconds (same as it is now)
2. 25% health refill on activation (same as it is now)
3. 50% energy refill on activation (in lieu of the energy regen bonus)
4. 60% self-damage reduction for 10 seconds

The idea is to make the perk less overpowered in the hands of snipers and more practical in the hands of chasers. Also, by making it a percentage of reduction and not total immunity, it leaves egocentric viable (even attractive) as a paired perk.

Edit: then all you've gotta do is make it only activate when the flag is taken from the stand area and we'll be pigs in clover

Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:57 am

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Nitron nerf only nerfed chasing. Capping at 300+ still easy.