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Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors
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SoundGuy Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:55 am Posts: 1097	Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors Its obvious that the only players that want "Indoor Flags" (Scarabrea-Like Map) are the "Never Leave The Base Defend And Deploy" players. You have to be able to see how bad this will be in a pub with FF OFF. If this is the kind of gameplay you want why not just play C&H. It's "Somewhat" like a CTF Pub w/o the flag 32 players in a CTF Pub with 16 of them playing C&H TA just isn't made for Scarabrea-Like maps. FF ON would go a long way to be able to have maps like it though. caaok made other points that are legit before the flaming started. Maps with flags inside (IE Scarabrea) would be horrible in a PUB as TA is now.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:41 am

Myrdraal Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:05 pm Posts: 871	Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors Durzaka wrote: Bella Omega was close to an indoor flag. It didn't go well. It didn't go well because it was then the most(only) defendable map and coordination was (and somewhat still is) alien to most ppl that got sucked into the Han Solo cowboy capping that T:A turned out to be. It had sad terrain, but a great base. The interior was fun to fight in and often full of gen-hipsters (see the indoor potential?), and the flag was actually fun to defend(a rarity in T:A) and to assault, unless you were one of the cowboys that made most of the player base. Because we all know the important is to go fast, make tons of points, and chain maps as fast as possible. Fastest FPS evar. Still, now that the fad is dying down and that we've seen the kind of gameplay 90% open flag maps makes, people want it back. But, you are right. Like 100% inheritance, it just won't work in T:A. Because someone said so. It is the internet, so it must be true. No use trying to see how it goes, even if there really is absolutely nothing to lose and the matter would be settled and everybody wins. Someone says it won't work and it isn't T1/T2. Why the hell are we still arguing? Things are great as they are. Trying things out and finding solutions is for the weak. I am 14 and I want everything to be key-in-hand and spoonfed to me. _________________ Tribes:Welfare. Where every map is designed to give away grabs to poor cappers so they can feel special.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:19 am

caaok Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm Posts: 1110	Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors The problem with Bella was the abysmal terrain, insane LOS for snipers, the ability to park tanks on the flag/in the generator room, useless pieces of decorative terrain that deadstoped players both out in the field and inside the gen room corridors, a frustrating stand for HoFs, etc, etc. Combine those initial flaws with that iterative design clusterfck, and by the end it was simply an awful map. Those who want it back are, imo, largely misguided. What I wouldn't mind seeing is a map with a similar concept but designed from the ground up, taking into account their mistakes from last time and properly designing the terrain. You're still complaining about cowboy cappers, and you're still ignoring the fact that indoor v.s. outdoor flags is largely irrelevant to that debate. Cowboy capping is fixed with proper map design, physics, and removal of health regen. Not by sticking the flag inside a fortress. The majority of maps in the old games featured outdoor, wide-open flagstands. And cowboy capping was never a problem then like it is now. The arguments against 100% inheritance weren't "because someone said so" or even because of theorizing about the negative impact on gameplay. Hi-Rez tried it with their "internal testers" (read: them) and couldn't hit s** with it. Which is why we ended up with fishycs. They wanted people to be able to make sideways shots at stationary targets with weapons like spinfusors and mortars, and they weren't capable enough to properly predict trajectories based on their speed. The fact that we even got 50% for explosive weapons is largely a compromise, and I actually had a new steam kid ask about it in game yesterday (specifically why his spinfusor didn't go where he was aiming while he was moving). This isn't about being "spoonfed" or about "not wanting to try things out". It's about not wanting a broken and flawed concept put into the game and then left unpatched for several weeks, which is Hi-Rez's design philosophy (see: the LAR). I don't want to be stuck with a 0-0 fractal fest in rotation indefinitely, especially since the changes needed for indoor flags to be viable are quite extensive. Hey, I have an idea, let's put a weapon in the game that deals 5000 damage. I'm not going to accept any whining about "theory crafting" that it'll be overpowered, let's just toss it into public games for a few weeks and see what happens. In custom servers, sure, go nuts, though the lack of a server flag for health regen replacement with health kits makes naked spawn pretty much unviable, as does the pathfinder naked loadout having no killing power against heavy armor. _________________ What we lose with hitscan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY Last edited by caaok on Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:48 am

Pingles Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:28 pm Posts: 1733	Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors SoundGuy wrote: Its obvious that the only players that want "Indoor Flags" (Scarabrea-Like Map) are the "Never Leave The Base Defend And Deploy" players. Or maybe those of us hoping to stretch T:A's focus a bit away from Sanic-grabs and back towards strategy. I know...it's silly. HiRez has every right to focus the game on what they see as the most playable. I don't anticipate us getting maps any more complex than what we have now. But not all of the folks who want indoor flags are turret monkeys. My favorite role on Scarabrae was ALWAYS capper. Sneaking in and out of that enemy base was such an accomplishment. Then starting a dry run home was TRULY the epitome of skiiing-skill. _________________
Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:45 pm

HazerAM Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:26 pm Posts: 67	Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors Quote: Its obvious that the only players that want "Indoor Flags" (Scarabrea-Like Map) are the "Never Leave The Base Defend And Deploy" players. Maybe some of us would like to NOT see a bunch of people trampling around with both bases completely destroyed, and 4 shrikes in the air ramming anything that flies, with snipers camping out halfway through the map going for opportunity kills (wont shoot unless the health is almost gone). All the while, the flag is never at the stand. I could almost argue that the monotonous "your flag has been returned' to instantly hear "Enemy has your flag" creates more of a stand-off than a flag that actually takes some co-ordination to get (via a heavy grabbing indoors to drop it outside). But whatever. Keep saying that T:A cant do that because the game wont allow it. T1 Renegades was a much worse situation (maybe mentioned in this thread or not). The defenses you could build were elaborate and OP and would take multiple heavies to overcome, creating a situation where a single flag grab was well earned (impossible for people who just played for themselves). But I will tell you now, the reason why people loved Tribes so much was exactly for that single flag grab. So, whatever. Your right. HR will never cater to those who believe that designed teamplay should be any concern. It will remain as it is, a game where the skilled will own everyone regardless of map or team players and that earning XP is more important than capping the flag every has been. So, as long as the game remains the way it is, I will just keep doing what I have been doing for the past 4 weeks: Brute Gen Offense, Sentinel sniping, and DB Base defense. I dont even care about the flag. I even switch teams when the other team stops defending/attacking since I cannot get kills that way. I earn more XP on the losing team getting cheap kills than I do when I repeat those super easy PTH routes and capture the flag 3+ times per map. I can play the cowboy, its really no fun though and I get nothing from it. The best playtime is when in a single map, I switch classes 3 or 4 times. I play INF/Brute to take the gen down in the first 30 seconds. Then its PTH for a flag cap or two. If my gen goes down, I switch to TCN to get the defenses back up, or HoF if no-one else is doing it. Switching classes to help the team is the best playtime ever. Its about just viewing what your team is doing and filling the gaps. Thats how T1 was played before. I have had maybe 2 out of 300 rounds where I have been able to do this in T:A. This is because there is no good reason to setup a defense that can so easily be taken out, and the map goes fro tactics and co-ordination to a team full of PTHs and JUGs that have no need to even care about what thier own base looks like. So fine. I can play for the cheap kills and keep gathering up the XP all while other people play the "Fast CTF" game for nothing better than to say "I grabbed the flag at 300+!, now I have to jump around the back side of the map for 4 minutes till my flag comes back!". PS: When I am a SEN, I flag chase. Which means I dont stay in one spot. _________________ Hi-rez is so busy trying to 'force' equality of player skill level in order to appease the masses (who generally lack skill) that the game goes through these ridiculous iterations of 'balance'.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:29 pm

HazerAM Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:26 pm Posts: 67	Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors Quote: Bella Omega was close to an indoor flag. It didn't go well. I dont give a ........ what Bella Omega was. What it was was a failed attempt at balanced Offense/Defense design. This thread is about making a map that succeeds in creating that balance. It probably wont be an overnight attempt, but we are asking for it just the same. _________________ Hi-rez is so busy trying to 'force' equality of player skill level in order to appease the masses (who generally lack skill) that the game goes through these ridiculous iterations of 'balance'.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:37 pm

HiRezScott Hi-Rez Team Member Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:19 pm Posts: 153	Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors Among other things, we've got a whole new way to play CTF coming next patch that will feature the flag-base being indoors on Katabatic and Arx... at least by the end of the match. We're pretty excited about it.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:57 pm

Macavity Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:59 am Posts: 45	Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors HiRezScott wrote: Among other things, we've got a whole new way to play CTF coming next patch that will feature the flag-base being indoors on Katabatic and Arx... at least by the end of the match. We're pretty excited about it. Why does HiRez insist on spending time and resources on something that no one has ever asked for time and time again? Please stop fiddling around with stuff like that and fix/implement what people are asking for instead.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:59 pm

Myrdraal Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:05 pm Posts: 871	Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors HiRezScott wrote: Among other things, we've got a whole new way to play CTF coming next patch that will feature the flag-base being indoors on Katabatic and Arx... at least by the end of the match. We're pretty excited about it. I am a strong advocate of having some indoor action, but I must say I have my doubts about that since those maps seem very ill-suited to an indoor flag and I really fear it'll just unjustifiably reinforce the negativity we see towards a well designed indoor-based map. Still, I can't wait to see what you guys have cooked up. _________________ Tribes:Welfare. Where every map is designed to give away grabs to poor cappers so they can feel special.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:00 pm

Gierling Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:56 am Posts: 1389	Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors HiRezScott wrote: Among other things, we've got a whole new way to play CTF coming next patch that will feature the flag-base being indoors on Katabatic and Arx... at least by the end of the match. We're pretty excited about it. Randomized flag spawn location is actually pretty brilliant, it de-emphasizes the pubstar pathfinder memorizing a 400kmh route and just doing that till it works.
Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:03 pm

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Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

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SoundGuy

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:55 am
Posts: 1097

Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

Its obvious that the only players that want "Indoor Flags" (Scarabrea-Like Map) are the "Never Leave The Base Defend And Deploy" players.

You have to be able to see how bad this will be in a pub with FF OFF.
If this is the kind of gameplay you want why not just play C&H.
It's "Somewhat" like a CTF Pub w/o the flag

32 players in a CTF Pub with 16 of them playing C&H

TA just isn't made for Scarabrea-Like maps.
FF ON would go a long way to be able to have maps like it though.
caaok made other points that are legit before the flaming started.

Maps with flags inside (IE Scarabrea) would be horrible in a PUB as TA is now.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:41 am

Myrdraal

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:05 pm
Posts: 871

Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

Durzaka wrote:

Bella Omega was close to an indoor flag. It didn't go well.

It didn't go well because it was then the most(only) defendable map and coordination was (and somewhat still is) alien to most ppl that got sucked into the Han Solo cowboy capping that T:A turned out to be. It had sad terrain, but a great base. The interior was fun to fight in and often full of gen-hipsters (see the indoor potential?), and the flag was actually fun to defend(a rarity in T:A) and to assault, unless you were one of the cowboys that made most of the player base. Because we all know the important is to go fast, make tons of points, and chain maps as fast as possible. Fastest FPS evar. Still, now that the fad is dying down and that we've seen the kind of gameplay 90% open flag maps makes, people want it back.

But, you are right. Like 100% inheritance, it just won't work in T:A. Because someone said so. It is the internet, so it must be true. No use trying to see how it goes, even if there really is absolutely nothing to lose and the matter would be settled and everybody wins. Someone says it won't work and it isn't T1/T2. Why the hell are we still arguing? Things are great as they are. Trying things out and finding solutions is for the weak. I am 14 and I want everything to be key-in-hand and spoonfed to me.

_________________
Tribes:Welfare. Where every map is designed to give away grabs to poor cappers so they can feel special.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:19 am

caaok

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 1110

Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

The problem with Bella was the abysmal terrain, insane LOS for snipers, the ability to park tanks on the flag/in the generator room, useless pieces of decorative terrain that deadstoped players both out in the field and inside the gen room corridors, a frustrating stand for HoFs, etc, etc. Combine those initial flaws with that iterative design clusterf*ck, and by the end it was simply an awful map. Those who want it back are, imo, largely misguided. What I wouldn't mind seeing is a map with a similar concept but designed from the ground up, taking into account their mistakes from last time and properly designing the terrain.

You're still complaining about cowboy cappers, and you're still ignoring the fact that indoor v.s. outdoor flags is largely irrelevant to that debate. Cowboy capping is fixed with proper map design, physics, and removal of health regen. Not by sticking the flag inside a fortress. The majority of maps in the old games featured outdoor, wide-open flagstands. And cowboy capping was never a problem then like it is now.

The arguments against 100% inheritance weren't "because someone said so" or even because of theorizing about the negative impact on gameplay. Hi-Rez tried it with their "internal testers" (read: them) and couldn't hit s*** with it. Which is why we ended up with fishycs. They wanted people to be able to make sideways shots at stationary targets with weapons like spinfusors and mortars, and they weren't capable enough to properly predict trajectories based on their speed. The fact that we even got 50% for explosive weapons is largely a compromise, and I actually had a new steam kid ask about it in game yesterday (specifically why his spinfusor didn't go where he was aiming while he was moving).

This isn't about being "spoonfed" or about "not wanting to try things out". It's about not wanting a broken and flawed concept put into the game and then left unpatched for several weeks, which is Hi-Rez's design philosophy (see: the LAR). I don't want to be stuck with a 0-0 fractal fest in rotation indefinitely, especially since the changes needed for indoor flags to be viable are quite extensive. Hey, I have an idea, let's put a weapon in the game that deals 5000 damage. I'm not going to accept any whining about "theory crafting" that it'll be overpowered, let's just toss it into public games for a few weeks and see what happens.

In custom servers, sure, go nuts, though the lack of a server flag for health regen replacement with health kits makes naked spawn pretty much unviable, as does the pathfinder naked loadout having no killing power against heavy armor.

_________________
What we lose with hitscan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY

Last edited by caaok on Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:48 am

Pingles

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1733

Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

SoundGuy wrote:

Its obvious that the only players that want "Indoor Flags" (Scarabrea-Like Map) are the "Never Leave The Base Defend And Deploy" players.

Or maybe those of us hoping to stretch T:A's focus a bit away from Sanic-grabs and back towards strategy.

I know...it's silly. HiRez has every right to focus the game on what they see as the most playable. I don't anticipate us getting maps any more complex than what we have now.

But not all of the folks who want indoor flags are turret monkeys. My favorite role on Scarabrae was ALWAYS capper. Sneaking in and out of that enemy base was such an accomplishment. Then starting a dry run home was TRULY the epitome of skiiing-skill.

_________________

Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:45 pm

HazerAM

Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:26 pm
Posts: 67

Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

Quote:

Its obvious that the only players that want "Indoor Flags" (Scarabrea-Like Map) are the "Never Leave The Base Defend And Deploy" players.

Maybe some of us would like to NOT see a bunch of people trampling around with both bases completely destroyed, and 4 shrikes in the air ramming anything that flies, with snipers camping out halfway through the map going for opportunity kills (wont shoot unless the health is almost gone). All the while, the flag is never at the stand. I could almost argue that the monotonous "your flag has been returned' to instantly hear "Enemy has your flag" creates more of a stand-off than a flag that actually takes some co-ordination to get (via a heavy grabbing indoors to drop it outside).

But whatever. Keep saying that T:A cant do that because the game wont allow it. T1 Renegades was a much worse situation (maybe mentioned in this thread or not). The defenses you could build were elaborate and OP and would take multiple heavies to overcome, creating a situation where a single flag grab was well earned (impossible for people who just played for themselves). But I will tell you now, the reason why people loved Tribes so much was exactly for that single flag grab.

So, whatever. Your right. HR will never cater to those who believe that designed teamplay should be any concern. It will remain as it is, a game where the skilled will own everyone regardless of map or team players and that earning XP is more important than capping the flag every has been.

So, as long as the game remains the way it is, I will just keep doing what I have been doing for the past 4 weeks: Brute Gen Offense, Sentinel sniping, and DB Base defense. I dont even care about the flag. I even switch teams when the other team stops defending/attacking since I cannot get kills that way. I earn more XP on the losing team getting cheap kills than I do when I repeat those super easy PTH routes and capture the flag 3+ times per map. I can play the cowboy, its really no fun though and I get nothing from it.

The best playtime is when in a single map, I switch classes 3 or 4 times. I play INF/Brute to take the gen down in the first 30 seconds. Then its PTH for a flag cap or two. If my gen goes down, I switch to TCN to get the defenses back up, or HoF if no-one else is doing it. Switching classes to help the team is the best playtime ever. Its about just viewing what your team is doing and filling the gaps. Thats how T1 was played before. I have had maybe 2 out of 300 rounds where I have been able to do this in T:A. This is because there is no good reason to setup a defense that can so easily be taken out, and the map goes fro tactics and co-ordination to a team full of PTHs and JUGs that have no need to even care about what thier own base looks like.

So fine. I can play for the cheap kills and keep gathering up the XP all while other people play the "Fast CTF" game for nothing better than to say "I grabbed the flag at 300+!, now I have to jump around the back side of the map for 4 minutes till my flag comes back!".

PS: When I am a SEN, I flag chase. Which means I dont stay in one spot.

_________________
Hi-rez is so busy trying to 'force' equality of player skill level in order to appease the masses (who generally lack skill) that the game goes through these ridiculous iterations of 'balance'.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:29 pm

HazerAM

Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:26 pm
Posts: 67

Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

Quote:

Bella Omega was close to an indoor flag. It didn't go well.

I dont give a ........ what Bella Omega was. What it was was a failed attempt at balanced Offense/Defense design. This thread is about making a map that succeeds in creating that balance. It probably wont be an overnight attempt, but we are asking for it just the same.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:37 pm

HiRezScott

Hi-Rez Team Member

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:19 pm
Posts: 153

Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

Among other things, we've got a whole new way to play CTF coming next patch that will feature the flag-base being indoors on Katabatic and Arx... at least by the end of the match. We're pretty excited about it. ;-)

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:57 pm

Macavity

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:59 am
Posts: 45

Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

HiRezScott wrote:

Why does HiRez insist on spending time and resources on something that no one has ever asked for time and time again?

Please stop fiddling around with stuff like that and fix/implement what people are asking for instead.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:59 pm

Myrdraal

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:05 pm
Posts: 871

Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

HiRezScott wrote:

I am a strong advocate of having some indoor action, but I must say I have my doubts about that since those maps seem very ill-suited to an indoor flag and I really fear it'll just unjustifiably reinforce the negativity we see towards a well designed indoor-based map. Still, I can't wait to see what you guys have cooked up.

_________________
Tribes:Welfare. Where every map is designed to give away grabs to poor cappers so they can feel special.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:00 pm

Gierling

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:56 am
Posts: 1389

Re: Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors

HiRezScott wrote:

Randomized flag spawn location is actually pretty brilliant, it de-emphasizes the pubstar pathfinder memorizing a 400kmh route and just doing that till it works.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:03 pm

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Solution to MANY problems: Move the Flags Indoors