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Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?
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HVFlateric Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:36 am Posts: 734	Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard? Back in early closed beta I believe the comment was something along the lines of it was not well like by the internal play testers. _________________ (Former Admin on Houston Vehicles & Miami Vehicles)
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:06 am

Pittyswains Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am Posts: 2120	Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard? HVFlateric wrote: Back in early closed beta I believe the comment was something along the lines of it was not well like by the internal play testers. That too, I could of sworn I read something about bullets coming out of their feet and that they didn't like it. _________________ shayd wrote: Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:25 am

nomadchaser Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:24 am Posts: 396	Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard? As opposed to now where bullets come out six feet to your side, as nature intended? I think this is actually something we could have a chance of pushing if their reasoning against it is that flimsy and our reasoning for it is this strong. Does someone much better informed than me want to make a spin-off thread speaking in favor of 100% bullet inheritance? Since it would nerf the function of automatics where they need nerfing (duels) and buff the function of automatics where they need buffing (chases), I'm sure a lot of people would come out in support of it.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:32 am

ZProtoss Alpha Tester Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm Posts: 427	Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard? Just throwing it out there as an NASL champion and all of that: Automatic weapons take far more skill to use effectively in this game than splash weapons do. Extremely few (backed up by Hi Rez's own internal statistics both officially and quoted informally) people have what could be considered anywhere close to high level tracking. This is reflected in the fact that the vast majority of players have terrible[b] TTK times with chainguns, but far superior output with all of the standard splash weapons. It's only in the absolute most elite class of player that (statistically) you see chaingun style weapons begin to compete evenly with explosive splash. Why is the above true? [b]Because splash weapons are easy to use in this game. You can fool yourself using whatever terms you want (lol grace weapon lol), but the reality is that it's not very hard to hit people with gigantic splash radius weapons. Thankfully, the game is designed so that the most optimal play at the top end involves a strong usage of both. Contrary to public belief, top level CTF isn't all CHAIN CHAIN CHAIN. Citing examples from NASL finals here, but the following explosive weapons saw extensive use (all by players who generally have fantastic chainguns): ZProtoss/Bojingle/Zato/Hatuey/Phonsc: Dust devil (raider), stealth spinfusor/sticky grenades (inf) Fire/Projectile/GMC/Blitz/Apc: Bolt launcher/dueling spinfusor (path), Nitrons (explosive/normal) Mabel/Vir: Thumper (tech and soldier versions), Prox grenades, Titan launcher Really, the only people who weren't using explosive weapons on essentially every life were the snipers - aka the one class that doesn't have explosive weapons. The only players who are actually upset in the current system are terribads (and yes, you ARE TERRIBLE if you think this way) who think that Tribes CTF play should exclusively be limited to one style of weapon. Tribes is style of game in where you need strong anti-air options (CGS), and strong explosive options for area denial (shooting anything related to the flag, punishing slower moving classes such as d. spinfusor vs raider, etc). T:A thankfully has both at the moment, and it's a much stronger game for it. TL;DR: Statistics firmly show using auto weapons is dramatically harder than splash. Top level play incorporates heavy use of both weapon types. People who think explosives are underused or that autos are overpowered have the IQ of a retarded puppy.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:39 am

LancerKagato Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:30 am Posts: 538	Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard? dont worry your gona get the new "twinfusor" so im sure you'll be "evened" out if not op till it gets nerfed in the patch after _________________ Autowhoring since 1998 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U671V2y4mbo
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:44 am

nomadchaser Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:24 am Posts: 396	Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard? I think automatics are largely balanced at this point with only a few individual exceptions (X1 magazine capacity, I'm looking at you). Still, I can't think of a disadvantage to implementing 100% bullet inheritance. Better chasing, more interesting close-range duels, bullets not seeming to come from someone next to you -- it would benefit just about everything.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:48 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4858 Location: NA East	Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard? Eh, they should have given armor based resistance out. I think after this patch they will be a bit over nerfed. The HP difference just doesn't cut it for the speed and size of target that heavy armors are. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:25 am

SkepticTA Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm Posts: 3062	Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard? ZProtoss wrote: Just throwing it out there as an NASL champion and all of that: You are the (lack of) brains behind the biggest fail perk in game, you have no credibility. ZProtoss wrote: Automatic weapons take far more aimbots to use effectively in this game than splash weapons do. Fixed that for you. _________________ (AHK) T:A Physics Profiler
Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:31 am

delayedreflex Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:24 pm Posts: 401	Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard? nomadchaser wrote: Pittyswains wrote: I think I remember seeing somewhere that they simply thought it looked weird, so they nixed any consideration. That is maybe the stupidest thing I've heard today. I'd laugh if it wouldn't lead straight to sobbing. To be honest, they do look kind of weird at high speeds - because the bullet trails appear slanted to the shooter (if the are properly reflecting the trajectory of the bullet), yet if you are moving at a constant speed and if you don't move your mouse the bullet will basically appear to be travelling straight away from you. They could make the trails point towards the shooter, in which case they AREN'T properly reflecting the trajectory and would look extremely odd to anyone but the shooter. But they don't look THAT weird - disc trails act in the same way and people seem fine with it. In reality it should make the chainguns harder to use in many situations, which is probably why internal testers didn't like it.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:01 am

ZProtoss Alpha Tester Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm Posts: 427	Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard? SkepticTA wrote: You are the (lack of) brains behind the biggest fail perk in game, you have no credibility. The top chasers in the game (Fire, Projectile) say otherwise. Sorry you suck too much to use it effectively? ZProtoss wrote: Automatic weapons take far more aimbots to use effectively in this game than splash weapons do. SkepticTA wrote: Fixed that for you. Obviously all of mono and legion brought their aimbots to lan as well, with how fast people were getting chained down. I mean, that's the only way your "LOLOL TOP PLAYER AIMBOT" holds up. Of course, the reality is you're just terrible at the game and would prefer to accuse people of cheating than realizing you're actually bad. Sad really.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:36 am

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Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

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HVFlateric

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:36 am
Posts: 734

Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

Back in early closed beta I believe the comment was something along the lines of it was not well like by the internal play testers.

_________________
(Former Admin on Houston Vehicles & Miami Vehicles)

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:06 am

Pittyswains

Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 2120

Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

HVFlateric wrote:

Back in early closed beta I believe the comment was something along the lines of it was not well like by the internal play testers.

That too, I could of sworn I read something about bullets coming out of their feet and that they didn't like it.

_________________

shayd wrote:

Ok But why do all combats I see take place like this: Two or more guys slide on the ground at huge speed which in real life would make your shoe evaporate to other dimension and meantime spamming those bombs or new players trying to be fair shooting a machine gun

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:25 am

nomadchaser

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:24 am
Posts: 396

Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

As opposed to now where bullets come out six feet to your side, as nature intended?

I think this is actually something we could have a chance of pushing if their reasoning against it is that flimsy and our reasoning for it is this strong. Does someone much better informed than me want to make a spin-off thread speaking in favor of 100% bullet inheritance? Since it would nerf the function of automatics where they need nerfing (duels) and buff the function of automatics where they need buffing (chases), I'm sure a lot of people would come out in support of it.

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:32 am

ZProtoss

Alpha Tester

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 427

Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

Just throwing it out there as an NASL champion and all of that:

Automatic weapons take far more skill to use effectively in this game than splash weapons do.

Extremely few (backed up by Hi Rez's own internal statistics both officially and quoted informally) people have what could be considered anywhere close to high level tracking. This is reflected in the fact that the vast majority of players have terrible[b] TTK times with chainguns, but far superior output with all of the standard splash weapons. It's only in the absolute most elite class of player that (statistically) you see chaingun style weapons begin to compete evenly with explosive splash.

Why is the above true?

[b]Because splash weapons are easy to use in this game.

You can fool yourself using whatever terms you want (lol grace weapon lol), but the reality is that it's not very hard to hit people with gigantic splash radius weapons. Thankfully, the game is designed so that the most optimal play at the top end involves a strong usage of both. Contrary to public belief, top level CTF isn't all CHAIN CHAIN CHAIN. Citing examples from NASL finals here, but the following explosive weapons saw extensive use (all by players who generally have fantastic chainguns):

ZProtoss/Bojingle/Zato/Hatuey/Phonsc: Dust devil (raider), stealth spinfusor/sticky grenades (inf)

Fire/Projectile/GMC/Blitz/Apc: Bolt launcher/dueling spinfusor (path), Nitrons (explosive/normal)

Mabel/Vir: Thumper (tech and soldier versions), Prox grenades, Titan launcher

Really, the only people who weren't using explosive weapons on essentially every life were the snipers - aka the one class that doesn't have explosive weapons.

The only players who are actually upset in the current system are terribads (and yes, you ARE TERRIBLE if you think this way) who think that Tribes CTF play should exclusively be limited to one style of weapon. Tribes is style of game in where you need strong anti-air options (CGS), and strong explosive options for area denial (shooting anything related to the flag, punishing slower moving classes such as d. spinfusor vs raider, etc). T:A thankfully has both at the moment, and it's a much stronger game for it.

TL;DR: Statistics firmly show using auto weapons is dramatically harder than splash. Top level play incorporates heavy use of both weapon types. People who think explosives are underused or that autos are overpowered have the IQ of a retarded puppy.

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:39 am

LancerKagato

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:30 am
Posts: 538

Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

dont worry your gona get the new "twinfusor" so im sure you'll be "evened" out if not op till it gets nerfed in the patch after

_________________
Autowhoring since 1998
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U671V2y4mbo

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:44 am

nomadchaser

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:24 am
Posts: 396

Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

I think automatics are largely balanced at this point with only a few individual exceptions (X1 magazine capacity, I'm looking at you). Still, I can't think of a disadvantage to implementing 100% bullet inheritance. Better chasing, more interesting close-range duels, bullets not seeming to come from someone next to you -- it would benefit just about everything.

Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:48 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4858
Location: NA East

Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

Eh, they should have given armor based resistance out. I think after this patch they will be a bit over nerfed.

The HP difference just doesn't cut it for the speed and size of target that heavy armors are.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:25 am

SkepticTA

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 3062

Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

ZProtoss wrote:

Just throwing it out there as an NASL champion and all of that:

You are the (lack of) brains behind the biggest fail perk in game, you have no credibility.

ZProtoss wrote:

Automatic weapons take far more aimbots to use effectively in this game than splash weapons do.

Fixed that for you.

_________________

(AHK) T:A Physics Profiler

Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:31 am

delayedreflex

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:24 pm
Posts: 401

Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

nomadchaser wrote:

Pittyswains wrote:

I think I remember seeing somewhere that they simply thought it looked weird, so they nixed any consideration.

That is maybe the stupidest thing I've heard today. I'd laugh if it wouldn't lead straight to sobbing.

To be honest, they do look kind of weird at high speeds - because the bullet trails appear slanted to the shooter (if the are properly reflecting the trajectory of the bullet), yet if you are moving at a constant speed and if you don't move your mouse the bullet will basically appear to be travelling straight away from you. They could make the trails point towards the shooter, in which case they AREN'T properly reflecting the trajectory and would look extremely odd to anyone but the shooter. But they don't look THAT weird - disc trails act in the same way and people seem fine with it.

In reality it should make the chainguns harder to use in many situations, which is probably why internal testers didn't like it.

Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:01 am

ZProtoss

Alpha Tester

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 427

Re: Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?

SkepticTA wrote:

You are the (lack of) brains behind the biggest fail perk in game, you have no credibility.

The top chasers in the game (Fire, Projectile) say otherwise. Sorry you suck too much to use it effectively?

ZProtoss wrote:

Automatic weapons take far more aimbots to use effectively in this game than splash weapons do.

SkepticTA wrote:

Fixed that for you.

Obviously all of mono and legion brought their aimbots to lan as well, with how fast people were getting chained down. I mean, that's the only way your "LOLOL TOP PLAYER AIMBOT" holds up.

Of course, the reality is you're just terrible at the game and would prefer to accuse people of cheating than realizing you're actually bad. Sad really.

Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:36 am

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Why are we spinfusor users punished so hard?