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[video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.
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fireb0rn Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:12 pm Posts: 252	[video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRH0glDOYvc (music: Aether - Born) Issues: - Cappers are capable of beginning LAR fire in a chase before chasers are due to weapon switching delays. Cappers only need to land four LAR bullets on a chaser in order to kill them, and that's assuming the LO have not softened the chaser up. Cappers who actually shoot the chaser will regularly be at an advantage in a duel because the maximum HP a chaser can ever chase with is 300 after two nitrons. - Cratering is a bit too unforgiving. Chasers cannot rely on return routes like cappers do, and chasers cannot choose to focus purely on hitting the slopes as cappers can. Given this, I think it's a bit odd that we're expected to ski as well as cappers do. We should consider adding an innate safe-fall mechanic to lightweight. This problem could be better solved however by simply allowing us to chase with more than 300 health, as punishing the player with damage is fine, but punishing the player with death on practically every imperfect landing is stupid. - Rage is still failing to activate, and it is fundamentally flawed in that it forces us to be in the most dangerous spot possible for a chaser in order to regain health. Its radius needs to be increased as promised and an overheal mechanic or something similar should be considered so that chasers can take more than 3-4 hits or one crater before dying. If chasers are forced onto the stand, we are making it far too easy for LO to deny chasers (three Nj5 bullets on a target moving in a straight line away from you... not very difficult) and people will continue to have little reason to play HO over LO. _________________ fireb0rn's Pathfinder Chasing Montages - click fireb0rn's YouTube Channel - click
Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:51 pm

Toodledoodle Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:38 am Posts: 62	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. Very nice post, well laid out and not too lengthy either. I've been trying to explain the exact same things since the patch. I hope they listen and find a new drawback so that chasers can still LD or not be hyper fragile.
Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:59 pm

mousedisc Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am Posts: 531	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. I posted this elsewhere: Lightweight replaces rage in primary perk, still at -30%, no regen penalty and any damage to lightweight user causes flag drop. I'm starting to think I've nailed it! _________________ ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS
Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:05 pm

Fingon Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:55 pm Posts: 1468	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. mousedisc wrote: I posted this elsewhere: Lightweight replaces rage in primary perk, still at -30%, no regen penalty and any damage to lightweight user causes flag drop. I'm starting to think I've nailed it! Add the rage buff to that perk and we have a deal! _________________ Please support the cause for better CTF PUB games! TOP forum Thread Fingon's montages http://www.twitch.tv/Fingonar -Fingon, Flamboyant Teammember.
Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:08 pm

mousedisc Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am Posts: 531	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. Other thoughts after watching vid (which is another well done vid fireborn nice job) 1. i wonder if the unreal engine is skipping the logic to check for rage activation which is the only reason i have for a buggy implementation. That or it was first implemented in a polling method for performance reasons and should be transitioned to an event based method of some sort which would always be reliable (like player damage etc). For me, if its between game performance and the rage perk, do away with the perk and administer refunds for it. 2. if you make lightweight primary the health issue goes away since chasers can equip egocentric (as well as undoing the regen penalty) as long as flag drop on any damage is in effect. _________________ ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS
Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:32 pm

krytosss Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:35 pm Posts: 77	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. Great video. +1 to adding safe fall to lightweight and overcharge to rage I don't think the goal of this patch was to get HO to be more viable. HO is slightly more viable due to raider nerfs, but the main goals were to bring balance to the force (chase, cap, sentinal relationships). It is a decent step in that direction, which with some tweaking will hopefully be fine tuned to get that nice balance. If rage is working properly and hopefully with an overcharge, a light getting harassed by LO will hopefully not be an issue. If they implement overcharge though, they should change the rage radius to only be gigantic if the flag is taken from the flag stand. Midfield flag passes should not activate rage across the map.
Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:50 pm

MrLordcaptain Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm Posts: 654	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. mousedisc wrote: I posted this elsewhere: Lightweight replaces rage in primary perk, still at -30%, no regen penalty and any damage to lightweight user causes flag drop. I'm starting to think I've nailed it! Now thats a good idea. Lightweight is horrible at the moment and I miss the old Ego/Rage. _________________ Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns
Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:52 pm

Oxyg3n Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:33 pm Posts: 43	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. adding this too the list in case a hirez member reads this. when trying to hit a capper with the lar, you have to lead so far away from him that the capper himself falls outside of the visible area when scoped. there needs to be less black or another solution. slow pubcappers dont give this problem, because you can get close easily, the faster cappers are a whole nother story.
Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:15 pm

clank1 Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:23 am Posts: 128	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. Since it's obviously intended for chasing only, why not reduce or remove the regen delay and just add -cannot take flag? Only problem I can imagine is huge ability to float around in arena/LD, throw in a -20 energy or something since most of the boosting is via nitrons, maybe. (ofc this is all somewhat high level, chasing on pubs might be too easy after) _________________
Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:42 pm

mousedisc Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am Posts: 531	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. I think if someone really wants to float around in Arena, they'll get whats coming to them _________________ ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS
Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:44 pm

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[video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

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fireb0rn

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:12 pm
Posts: 252

[video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRH0glDOYvc
(music: Aether - Born)

Issues:

- Cappers are capable of beginning LAR fire in a chase before chasers are due to weapon switching delays. Cappers only need to land four LAR bullets on a chaser in order to kill them, and that's assuming the LO have not softened the chaser up. Cappers who actually shoot the chaser will regularly be at an advantage in a duel because the maximum HP a chaser can ever chase with is 300 after two nitrons.

- Cratering is a bit too unforgiving. Chasers cannot rely on return routes like cappers do, and chasers cannot choose to focus purely on hitting the slopes as cappers can. Given this, I think it's a bit odd that we're expected to ski as well as cappers do. We should consider adding an innate safe-fall mechanic to lightweight. This problem could be better solved however by simply allowing us to chase with more than 300 health, as punishing the player with damage is fine, but punishing the player with death on practically every imperfect landing is stupid.

- Rage is still failing to activate, and it is fundamentally flawed in that it forces us to be in the most dangerous spot possible for a chaser in order to regain health. Its radius needs to be increased as promised and an overheal mechanic or something similar should be considered so that chasers can take more than 3-4 hits or one crater before dying. If chasers are forced onto the stand, we are making it far too easy for LO to deny chasers (three Nj5 bullets on a target moving in a straight line away from you... not very difficult) and people will continue to have little reason to play HO over LO.

_________________
fireb0rn's Pathfinder Chasing Montages - click
fireb0rn's YouTube Channel - click

Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:51 pm

Toodledoodle

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:38 am
Posts: 62

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

Very nice post, well laid out and not too lengthy either. I've been trying to explain the exact same things since the patch. I hope they listen and find a new drawback so that chasers can still LD or not be hyper fragile.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:59 pm

mousedisc

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am
Posts: 531

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

I posted this elsewhere:

Lightweight replaces rage in primary perk, still at -30%, no regen penalty and any damage to lightweight user causes flag drop.

I'm starting to think I've nailed it!

_________________
ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O
RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:05 pm

Fingon

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:55 pm
Posts: 1468

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

mousedisc wrote:

I posted this elsewhere:

Lightweight replaces rage in primary perk, still at -30%, no regen penalty and any damage to lightweight user causes flag drop.

I'm starting to think I've nailed it!

Add the rage buff to that perk and we have a deal!

_________________

Please support the cause for better CTF PUB games!
TOP forum Thread
Fingon's montages
http://www.twitch.tv/Fingonar
-Fingon, Flamboyant Teammember.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:08 pm

mousedisc

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am
Posts: 531

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

Other thoughts after watching vid (which is another well done vid fireborn nice job)

1. i wonder if the unreal engine is skipping the logic to check for rage activation which is the only reason i have for a buggy implementation. That or it was first implemented in a polling method for performance reasons and should be transitioned to an event based method of some sort which would always be reliable (like player damage etc). For me, if its between game performance and the rage perk, do away with the perk and administer refunds for it.

2. if you make lightweight primary the health issue goes away since chasers can equip egocentric (as well as undoing the regen penalty) as long as flag drop on any damage is in effect.

_________________
ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O
RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:32 pm

krytosss

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:35 pm
Posts: 77

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

Great video.

+1 to adding safe fall to lightweight and overcharge to rage

I don't think the goal of this patch was to get HO to be more viable. HO is slightly more viable due to raider nerfs, but the main goals were to bring balance to the force (chase, cap, sentinal relationships). It is a decent step in that direction, which with some tweaking will hopefully be fine tuned to get that nice balance.

If rage is working properly and hopefully with an overcharge, a light getting harassed by LO will hopefully not be an issue. If they implement overcharge though, they should change the rage radius to only be gigantic if the flag is taken from the flag stand. Midfield flag passes should not activate rage across the map.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:50 pm

MrLordcaptain

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm
Posts: 654

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

mousedisc wrote:

I posted this elsewhere:

Lightweight replaces rage in primary perk, still at -30%, no regen penalty and any damage to lightweight user causes flag drop.

I'm starting to think I've nailed it!

Now thats a good idea.
Lightweight is horrible at the moment and I miss the old Ego/Rage.

_________________
Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:52 pm

Oxyg3n

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:33 pm
Posts: 43

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

adding this too the list in case a hirez member reads this. when trying to hit a capper with the lar, you have to lead so far away from him that the capper himself falls outside of the visible area when scoped. there needs to be less black or another solution.

slow pubcappers dont give this problem, because you can get close easily, the faster cappers are a whole nother story.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:15 pm

clank1

Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:23 am
Posts: 128

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

Since it's obviously intended for chasing only, why not reduce or remove the regen delay and just add -cannot take flag?

Only problem I can imagine is huge ability to float around in arena/LD, throw in a -20 energy or something since most of the boosting is via nitrons, maybe. (ofc this is all somewhat high level, chasing on pubs might be too easy after)

_________________

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:42 pm

mousedisc

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am
Posts: 531

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

I think if someone really wants to float around in Arena, they'll get whats coming to them

_________________
ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O
RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:44 pm

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[video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.