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[video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.
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w3st420 Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:09 pm Posts: 195	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. fireb0rn wrote: I don't remember ever cratering on a return route as a capper, so no they aren't necessarily better than me. I also typically hit routes much better/faster than the people I'm chasing, sad to say, and I don't even cap that often. You don't have a return route as a chaser; you're running an entirely impromptu route to follow someone while shooting at them. It is different. You can't compare skiing while ghosting someone and shooting at them without a route to skiing with a return route. You either crater or you don't, you said you had problems with it, now you say you don't. Skiing doesn't require a route, just a fluidity of movement over terrain. The more fluid you are the faster and more efficient you will be. You don't need routes to chase, just need to move efficiently. And I meant your skill as a chaser must be equal to their skill as a capper. That is balance. Bandaids just hide the problem, not heal it. _________________
Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:06 am

Punichan Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:46 am Posts: 465	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. Rage is a perk tward the right dirrection... because compares to "lightweight" which works for BOTH SIDE is useless.... rage however... works one side... but I had talked about one way, simple way to solve things; Flag weight, not to the point of handicaping... but up on pick up, make the carrier weight slight bit more, so the same weight/class/perk/load out class CAN catch up (should also say, that it will do more to light, little to med, and almost no difference to heavy)
Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:33 am

fireb0rn Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:12 pm Posts: 253	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. w3st420 wrote: You either crater or you don't, you said you had problems with it, now you say you don't. Skiing doesn't require a route, just a fluidity of movement over terrain. The more fluid you are the faster and more efficient you will be. You don't need routes to chase, just need to move efficiently. You say "skiing doesn't require a route" as if it somehow disproves the statement "running a return route is easier than an impromptu route." It does not. In your view, why do people run routes at all? Isn't it because practiced, designed movements over the terrain will get you places quicker, more efficiently, and more consistently than improvised movements will? Obviously this is the case. It is the same for return routes. If using a return route wasn't better and easier than not using one, why in your opinion do people use them? On top of using an impromptu route as a chaser, you will typically focus on aiming at and killing the capper. This is something the capper is not required to do. Chasers are required to multitask while skiing. Cappers are not. This really isn't complex or difficult to understand. _________________ fireb0rn's Pathfinder Chasing Montages - click fireb0rn's YouTube Channel - click
Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:38 am

Skoffin Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:54 pm Posts: 445	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. Old rage/ego was far better than rage/light weight. All that was needed was to increase rage activation radius but instead we got a rage nerf and a new perk which doesn't work as well as what we had before. I've also found myself cratering on down slopes as well. If we are lighter we should have less mass. Which should mean less force on impact, not more. It just doesn't make any sense. It's like a feather being thrown at you will hurt more than a brick. _________________ "Juggernauts excel at long range bombardment...and devastate with their mortars"? Funny, last I checked nearly every weapon in the game out ranges the mortar. Increase the muzzle velocity on mortars already. Pretty please?
Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:58 am

dandelionzz Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:14 pm Posts: 38	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. phanakapan wrote: None of these bandaid perks will ever actually fix the problem with balancing cappers and chasers. The only thing that will fix this balance is the implementation of health kits instead of passive regen, and buffing explosive jumps. This change would make speed literally cost health, meaning cappers would have to choose between grabbing with speed or grabbing with health. Chasers would not have to worry about choosing as their only goal is getting up to speed as fast as possible. With kits chasers would actually be faster than they are currently because they could add in another nitron or disc jump at the beginning of a chase by immediately using their health kit after the first nitron+dj. Things like rage and lightweight are bandaids that don't actually fix anything, and would be irrelevant in a system with health kits. this is so true, hirez has stated that it would be too hard to make such big changes now, but it's hard to believe adding health kits would be such a hard thing to do, just because they released an unfinished game and now are affraid to admit their mistakes doesn't mean we have to suffer.
Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:00 am

illerFFN Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:52 pm Posts: 1174	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. Skoffin wrote: I've also found myself cratering on down slopes as well. Ah HAH! I knew I wasn't imagining it.... now someone else confirmed it. It effs up slope physics somehow
Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:00 am

Whitewhale Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:09 pm Posts: 3560	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. rage or LW should include a form of safefall that doesnt protect from shrikes otherwise its crater time
Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:26 am

Sherbniz Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:14 am Posts: 20 Steam Gamer Name: Sherbniz	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. mousedisc wrote: Lightweight replaces rage in primary perk, still at -30%, no regen penalty and any damage to lightweight user causes flag drop. That's a great idea, and denies it's benefits to cappers entirely! Simple, but sweet.
Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:25 am

Fingon Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:55 pm Posts: 1486	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. Sherbniz wrote: mousedisc wrote: Lightweight replaces rage in primary perk, still at -30%, no regen penalty and any damage to lightweight user causes flag drop. That's a great idea, and denies it's benefits to cappers entirely! Simple, but sweet. Personally I'd rather have flag drop when going over 225 km/h instead of any damage done, Imagine getting the flag passed from your teammate in an emergency situation and promtly dropping the flag. But yes either way I'd like to see that combination of the 2 perks implemented. _________________ Please support the cause for better CTF PUB games! TOP forum Thread Fingon's montages http://www.twitch.tv/Fingonar -Fingon, Flamboyant Teammember.
Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:39 am

Sherbniz Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:14 am Posts: 20 Steam Gamer Name: Sherbniz	Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it. Fingon wrote: Personally I'd rather have flag drop when going over 225 km/h instead of any damage done, Imagine getting the flag passed from your teammate in an emergency situation and promtly dropping the flag. Anything along these lines would be fine! Hell, if using lightweight would make the flag heavier while you carry it, effectively negating the bonus or making you slower all-around, making your lose a percentage of your speed when touching the enemy flag, etc...?
Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:57 am

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[video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

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w3st420

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:09 pm
Posts: 195

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

fireb0rn wrote:

I don't remember ever cratering on a return route as a capper, so no they aren't necessarily better than me. I also typically hit routes much better/faster than the people I'm chasing, sad to say, and I don't even cap that often. You don't have a return route as a chaser; you're running an entirely impromptu route to follow someone while shooting at them. It is different. You can't compare skiing while ghosting someone and shooting at them without a route to skiing with a return route.

You either crater or you don't, you said you had problems with it, now you say you don't. Skiing doesn't require a route, just a fluidity of movement over terrain. The more fluid you are the faster and more efficient you will be. You don't need routes to chase, just need to move efficiently.

And I meant your skill as a chaser must be equal to their skill as a capper. That is balance. Bandaids just hide the problem, not heal it.

_________________

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:06 am

Punichan

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:46 am
Posts: 465

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

Rage is a perk tward the right dirrection... because compares to "lightweight" which works for BOTH SIDE is useless.... rage however... works one side... but I had talked about one way, simple way to solve things; Flag weight, not to the point of handicaping... but up on pick up, make the carrier weight slight bit more, so the same weight/class/perk/load out class CAN catch up (should also say, that it will do more to light, little to med, and almost no difference to heavy)

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:33 am

fireb0rn

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:12 pm
Posts: 253

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

w3st420 wrote:

You say "skiing doesn't require a route" as if it somehow disproves the statement "running a return route is easier than an impromptu route." It does not. In your view, why do people run routes at all? Isn't it because practiced, designed movements over the terrain will get you places quicker, more efficiently, and more consistently than improvised movements will? Obviously this is the case. It is the same for return routes. If using a return route wasn't better and easier than not using one, why in your opinion do people use them?

On top of using an impromptu route as a chaser, you will typically focus on aiming at and killing the capper. This is something the capper is not required to do. Chasers are required to multitask while skiing. Cappers are not. This really isn't complex or difficult to understand.

_________________
fireb0rn's Pathfinder Chasing Montages - click
fireb0rn's YouTube Channel - click

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:38 am

Skoffin

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:54 pm
Posts: 445

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

Old rage/ego was far better than rage/light weight. All that was needed was to increase rage activation radius but instead we got a rage nerf and a new perk which doesn't work as well as what we had before.

I've also found myself cratering on down slopes as well. If we are lighter we should have less mass. Which should mean less force on impact, not more. It just doesn't make any sense. It's like a feather being thrown at you will hurt more than a brick.

_________________
"Juggernauts excel at long range bombardment...and devastate with their mortars"? Funny, last I checked nearly every weapon in the game out ranges the mortar. Increase the muzzle velocity on mortars already. Pretty please?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:58 am

dandelionzz

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:14 pm
Posts: 38

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

phanakapan wrote:

None of these bandaid perks will ever actually fix the problem with balancing cappers and chasers. The only thing that will fix this balance is the implementation of health kits instead of passive regen, and buffing explosive jumps. This change would make speed literally cost health, meaning cappers would have to choose between grabbing with speed or grabbing with health. Chasers would not have to worry about choosing as their only goal is getting up to speed as fast as possible. With kits chasers would actually be faster than they are currently because they could add in another nitron or disc jump at the beginning of a chase by immediately using their health kit after the first nitron+dj.

Things like rage and lightweight are bandaids that don't actually fix anything, and would be irrelevant in a system with health kits.

this is so true, hirez has stated that it would be too hard to make such big changes now, but it's hard to believe adding health kits would be such a hard thing to do, just because they released an unfinished game and now are affraid to admit their mistakes doesn't mean we have to suffer.

Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:00 am

illerFFN

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:52 pm
Posts: 1174

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

Skoffin wrote:

I've also found myself cratering on down slopes as well.

Ah HAH! I knew I wasn't imagining it.... now someone else confirmed it. It effs up slope physics somehow

Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:00 am

Whitewhale

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:09 pm
Posts: 3560

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

rage or LW should include a form of safefall that doesnt protect from shrikes

otherwise its crater time

Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:26 am

Sherbniz

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:14 am
Posts: 20
Steam Gamer Name: Sherbniz

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

mousedisc wrote:

Lightweight replaces rage in primary perk, still at -30%, no regen penalty and any damage to lightweight user causes flag drop.

That's a great idea, and denies it's benefits to cappers entirely!

Simple, but sweet.

Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:25 am

Fingon

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:55 pm
Posts: 1486

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

Sherbniz wrote:

mousedisc wrote:

Lightweight replaces rage in primary perk, still at -30%, no regen penalty and any damage to lightweight user causes flag drop.

That's a great idea, and denies it's benefits to cappers entirely!

Simple, but sweet.

Personally I'd rather have flag drop when going over 225 km/h instead of any damage done, Imagine getting the flag passed from your teammate in an emergency situation and promtly dropping the flag.

But yes either way I'd like to see that combination of the 2 perks implemented.

_________________

Please support the cause for better CTF PUB games!
TOP forum Thread
Fingon's montages
http://www.twitch.tv/Fingonar
-Fingon, Flamboyant Teammember.

Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:39 am

Sherbniz

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:14 am
Posts: 20
Steam Gamer Name: Sherbniz

Re: [video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.

Fingon wrote:

Personally I'd rather have flag drop when going over 225 km/h instead of any damage done, Imagine getting the flag passed from your teammate in an emergency situation and promtly dropping the flag.

Anything along these lines would be fine!

Hell, if using lightweight would make the flag heavier while you carry it, effectively negating the bonus or making you slower all-around, making your lose a percentage of your speed when touching the enemy flag, etc...?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:57 am

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[video] Why rage/lightweight is weak, and how we can fix it.