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Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance
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IronKane Beta Tester Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 497	Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance Greth, here's your major obstacle: You come off as an condescending, arrogant, elitist prick. That's my observation based on your article and your replies to those with whom you disagree. Maybe you don't think of yourself as being viewed like that, but I think that a most do see you that way. I don't know you, maybe you're someone I'd like to have a beer with and discuss Tribes gameplay. I've agreed with some of what you had to say and disagree with the other parts. Your view that T:A should be competition-centric is ludicrous and would be the real game killer. It's a crappy business model where you cater to an extremely small percentage (5%?) and tell the rest to p* off. Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one and they all stink. Your's and mine included. I'm not about to try to disuade you, you're righteously convinced that you're absolutely right and anyone who disagrees is wrong and a noob. I do have one question for you: Is this your first Tribes game or are you a vet? I ask because of a statement you said about how complex T:A is. It's not complex at all. It doesn't hold a candle to the complexity of T2 and which is why you see so many vets b** about T:A. Btw, the TWL ladders had both 7v7 and 12v12.
Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:17 pm

TheTriforceKid Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:08 pm Posts: 50	Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance I have to admit that I am guilty of some of this casual gaming business. I play a juggernaut most of the time, and I do my best to hammer the enemy defenses and keep their flag stand clear for my teammates to try and cap their flag. I, too, enjoy playing with friends, and people always complain that, when the games auto-balance is implemented, I'll wait until the teams are unbalanced again and switch back to my friend's team. While I like to play the game for the sake of playing the game, I have a tendency to get irrationally angered when I constantly die at the hands of one or two players because my teammates aren't following my Spot indicators or paying attention to details. Rain Dance is a big problem in some aspects, with cappers being able to grab the flag form odd angles, you'd think that someone would be smart and plant a doombringer or two on the flagstand with shields. But that doesn't always happen, so either I switch to Doombringer and do it myself, or, if I am midfield and notice that we have no defense, I'll holler to get some shields on the flag..doesn't always happen. I'm the type of player whom does not look too kindly on intentional suicide capability. If I'm midfield and something goes wrong at base, I will not kill myself to get back to base more quickly. I will either maintain my original duty of bombarding the enemy base to keep their defenses down, or I will actively try to intercept the flagger on his way back to base. It's the casual gamer, to me, that is te problem, for hte most part, when it comes to teamplay. They're not in it for the team, they're in it for themselves. I, too, believe that killcount should not place you at the top of the list at the end of the game. I believe your participation in a team effort should rank you, though how that would be implemented is beyond me. I, personally, think there should be roughly 1-2 of each class on a team. A team missing this balance tends to get overrun fairly quickly. Thank you for this article. It's really opened my eyes to some of the s*** I've been guilty of, and will now try to curb my casual ways.
Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:38 pm

mrboneguy Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 2:05 pm Posts: 294	Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance So to sum it all up: The gens in these maps aren't important enough to defend. I agree with you here, they should be more important. This is a failure in map design. If you really believe that the complexity of Tribes is a good thing then you'll agree. When gens are important, so is the role of defending them. And like you said, playing roles is what it's all about. More roles that are meaningful means more complexity, challenge, and fun. The chance of changing how the masses play this game is roughly 0%. Though, HiRez changing the maps to support more roles and strategy such as making the gens more important and making maps where the flag stand isn't so open that it's stupidly easy to grab the flag, is infinitely more possible. Now, if they do eventually add better maps with more complexity. Perhaps they could have versions that don't even have a gen, for those people who want a more simplified game, that could be run on custom servers. Indoor combat is vastly different than outside, some people enjoy it more as it uses new strategies. The fact that the game has classes and equipment that excell in this purpose but none of the maps really give it much point is a core issue with this game.
Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:41 pm

delayedreflex Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:24 pm Posts: 401	Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance I agree with much of your article, but I disagree with the premise that the game needs to be hard on newbies (since you seem to suggest that having a situation where it is "easy for everyone" is the death of Tribes). You use the analogy of ball-sacking vs. tennis, but that is a disingenuous analogy. It's a lot more nuanced than that. Say there's a bunch of kids playing catch - just throwing a baseball around in a field. A couple of older teens come along wanting to play some baseball. "Hey kids, want to play a game of baseball? See, we've got some bats, and we can teach you how to play positions." "No thanks, we'd rather just play catch." "But you're standing in the middle of a baseball diamond! It's a waste to just play catch when we could be playing baseball!" This is the situation that T:A is in. Casuals deathmatch or llama grab or whatnot in pubs, as that's all that they can manage, and what they are doing IS a subset of the overall game (kids playing catch, or hitting a ball off of a tee). Sometimes they will string something together resembling an actual baseball game, albiet at a lower level (elementary school kids playing baseball). If a few experienced players join a pub, they can dominate and crush the other players (two teens coming and playing against a bunch of elementary school kids). The top players in the game are orders of magnitude better than the casuals, and thus understand balance in a way that casuals don't (kids might think it's only fair to limit pitches to underhand arcs - eg. speed cap - but pros are adapted to fastballs. Another analogy, kids feel much more comfortable on a field much smaller than a MLB field). Casuals don't want to play roles that they find boring, even if they are important (who wants to be an outfielder?). The solution, you say, is to just tell the newbies to suck it up and get used to losing? Virtually every sport in the world have leagues and divisions where you can play with players of a similar skill level to yours - sure, within an individual league skills will vary substantially, but you don't usually get a group of Division 1 players stomping a group of rec-league players on a consistent basis, as happens in Tribes. The difference, of course, is that the majority of real-life sports is played either with organized teams or in a pick-up fashion - you don't often get a situation where a couple decent baseball players crash a few kids playing catch and take over their game. Unfortunately, it seems people would rather do that then go to their own field and play catch for a while until more baseball players of their skill level come along so they can start up an actual game of baseball. I really think everyone would have more fun if there was more segregation between skill levels, instead of having the equivalent of elementary school kids playing with highscoolers in the same field. I agree that there needs to be more rigourous training forced on newbies, as right now it's the equivalent of giving a ball, bat and gloves to a group of people who have only ever played soccer and assume that they know what to do. And I definitely agree that the people who have only ever played catch in elementary school should not be listened to when deciding on the rules and equipment for MLB baseball. But to deride those kids playing catch and teeball as being worthless human beings will NOT make them want to learn how to actually play baseball. The proper thing to do is to give them softballs, small fields, and tees, let them play their own game until they are ready to play actual baseball (which may be never). Perhaps the one problem is that without mods, you can't really cater to the different skill levels as easily. Actual baseballs make more sense for the pros, but softballs make more sense for the casuals - if there is only one standard, one of the groups is going to suffer. Better to allow the two groups to co-exist, I say. Casuals may petition to change baseball into softball, but if you give them the option to play softball instead of forcing them to play baseball or nothing at all, they can at least be satisfied and the baseball players are happy as well.
Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:54 pm

Melanious Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:22 pm Posts: 1985 Location: NA West	Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance Quote: Greth, here's your major obstacle: You come off as an condescending, arrogant, elitist prick. That's my observation based on your article and your replies to those with whom you disagree So true.. comp players and their attitudes/egos are truly amazing. For being the very very minority of a player base everyone apparently has to take their words as gospel instead of having their own brain and voice. Whether you choose to accept it or not 7v7 is a different game and should be treated as a niche community and not catered to by devs. By your logic we should all be out practicing things like rock routes and 300+ caps. I say the opposite, the game physics should be balanced and teamwork encouraged instead, not silly gimmick perks like lightweight implemented. If the comp scene died would we all turn into mindless lemmings of sucktatude that dont know how to play tribes? Hate to break it to you but no, that wouldnt happen. Casual players are what keeps the game alive. If HiRez bows down to every comp command this game will become a ghost town quick. Fix the game for "casuals" and "pubbers" and comp can adapt with their weapon/class/map bans like they always do instead of making it a watered down boring game they wish to grind out. _________________ Unstoppable Mid Air Disks - NA West
Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:53 pm

IronKane Beta Tester Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 497	Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance Melanious wrote: Quote: Greth, here's your major obstacle: You come off as an condescending, arrogant, elitist prick. That's my observation based on your article and your replies to those with whom you disagree So true.. comp players and their attitudes/egos are truly amazing. For being the very very minority of a player base everyone apparently has to take their words as gospel instead of having their own brain and voice. Whether you choose to accept it or not 7v7 is a different game and should be treated as a niche community and not catered to by devs. By your logic we should all be out practicing things like rock routes and 300+ caps. I say the opposite, the game physics should be balanced and teamwork encouraged instead, not silly gimmick perks like lightweight implemented. If the comp scene died would we all turn into mindless lemmings of sucktatude that dont know how to play tribes? Hate to break it to you but no, that wouldnt happen. Casual players are what keeps the game alive. If HiRez bows down to every comp command this game will become a ghost town quick. Fix the game for "casuals" and "pubbers" and comp can adapt with their weapon/class/map bans like they always do instead of making it a watered down boring game they wish to grind out. Just to be clear: I'm NOT calling him names, I'm just pointing out that is how he is perceived to be from how he writes and it something that maybe he should work on if he wants to preach his viewpoint with any measure of success.
Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:47 pm

joyrock Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:31 am Posts: 122	Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance IronKane wrote: Greth, here's your major obstacle: You come off as an condescending, arrogant, elitist prick. Yeah I think that about sums it up. Trust me I know, I have the condescending thing down pat. I could only bring myself to skim through it and even that violated a long standing internet rule I made for myself about not bothering to read past the first instance of the use of "entitlement" or any derivative there of. Since that tends to signal the point where any meaningful argument stops. But it happened so soon and I was sorta set back, I think my exact thought was "Whoa, really, Right out of the gate eh?" There were some decent points but they were quickly overshadowed. Really to be blunt its people like Greth that are the reason I don't respect the competitive crowd. Irregardless of the fact that I don't doubt they could WTF PZWN me in a match. Which makes me feel bad when I do encounter a Comp player who I can actually relate to. Because I realize that it isn't the Comp players I really hate its people like him. Its somewhat unfair that I allow that to taint my view of the Comp community as a whole but its really hard not to. ..... On a side note I know I can be condescending as all hell, please tell me I'm not quite that bad?
Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:48 pm

Greth Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:03 pm Posts: 968 Location: Belgium Steam Gamer Name: Greth	Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance joyrock wrote: IronKane wrote: Greth, here's your major obstacle: You come off as an condescending, arrogant, elitist prick. Yeah I think that about sums it up. Trust me I know, I have the condescending thing down pat. I could only bring myself to skim through it and even that violated a long standing internet rule I made for myself about not bothering to read past the first instance of the use of "entitlement" or any derivative there of. Since that tends to signal the point where any meaningful argument stops. But it happened so soon and I was sorta set back, I think my exact thought was "Whoa, really, Right out of the gate eh?" There were some decent points but they were quickly overshadowed. Really to be blunt its people like Greth that are the reason I don't respect the competitive crowd. Irregardless of the fact that I don't doubt they could WTF PZWN me in a match. Which makes me feel bad when I do encounter a Comp player who I can actually relate to. Because I realize that it isn't the Comp players I really hate its people like him. Its somewhat unfair that I allow that to taint my view of the Comp community as a whole but its really hard not to. ..... On a side note I know I can be condescending as all hell, please tell me I'm not quite that bad? This is quite funny to me. You might want to not judge a book by its cover. The entitlement segment is actually meant for people like you who simply look at a word and offer an opinion because it is used. This is why I included the dictionary definition of the word so my use of it could not be misinterpreted - of course that doesn't work if you don't even give me a chance to talk about it. I am frankly insulted by the last few replies. You are completely missing the point and tone of this article because you will it to be an elitist rant. If you look closely and read carefully I debunk everything you're saying about me. I honestly can't believe you have read the article. You are simply citing the prejudice that I actually try to end. It is an article that needs to be read as a whole and not taken out of context, there is structure and there is a deliberate buildup of information. You are wrong in the analysis of it and I'd appreciate you looking at my argumentation and not simply taking from it something you have dreamt up. My words are harsh. But they are to the point. If you disagree with my points, I would like to hear your argumentation instead of muttering 'bah humbug! You can't talk to these people - it almost has a racist tone to it! And if you think I am attacking the lone player who just wants to play the game you have not read the article correctly. I am specifically talking about what you are doing now. I am talking about the 'casual' player who badmouths the entire construct of the competitive scene for no reasons other than fear and complete misunderstanding of what the perceived 'competitive scene' is. The root of the problem is ignorance, which you are demonstrating right here. Hate me for whatever reason you might dream up, but you are proving my point for me, that this community is becoming sick with bile for no reason what so ever. I'm sorry if I don't take the time to mince words and sugar-coat every little thing I'm saying. When facts get ignored I get confrontational. _________________ Wilderzone.org Admin and writer also check out my youtube.com/grethsc channel and youtube.com/leveluptv for vods and highlights
Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:05 pm

Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance nice piece greth, but there is a point to 7's being very different animals from a larger format game. perhaps it would be best looked at as both being tennis but one being singles and the other being doubles? but i digress. this point is neither here nor there. this community... this game has issues. some are hi rez's fault, some may stem from white listing, as you claim, others are from the fact that we have the equivalent of NFL players and pop warner players trying to lay down a unified rule set for the sport. there are many problems...and as you implied, the time to fix them is running short. few people, and fewer gamers have infinite stores of patience. i thank you for taking the time to say what needed to be said. _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:18 pm

mrboneguy Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 2:05 pm Posts: 294	Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance When you wrap your 'point' up in arrogance and elitism, many people are just going to walk away. You're basically telling everyone that doesn't play just like you do that they are doing it wrong. Not only are they doing it wrong according to you, but all of their feedback and concerns about this game are invalidated because they don't play your way. I may be crazy, or just bored, but I actually read the whole thing. The issue here is that you're wrong. Depsite that, you did touch on the gens not being worth much in these maps, which I called out in a previous reply and I do agree about this. However, your soution of everyone needs to play CTF like you is hardly realistic or even a good one. Not all of the old tribes vets want CTF to only consist of running memorized routes, defending the flag stand, or attacking the flag stand. I'm a tribes vet and I know quite a few others. The problem is that there are quite a few classes that are designed to defend or assault indoor areas (specifically, the gen) and it can be a lot of fun. It's another level of complexity and strategy and that's a great thing. There's a clear design issue with the game. There are classes meant for gen assault and defense but the gens are barely worth protecting. There's a disconnect here and it's not the players' fault. While it's true that the current CTF maps only support a strategy where you mostly ignore the gen and if you want to win you need to focus on other things, the core problem is that the map design is flawed in that the gen is not useful enough. Or, get rid of the classes that are meant to defend or assault the gen so there's no more issue - but that would be a far more boring option if you ask me.
Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:25 pm

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Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

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IronKane

Beta Tester

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 497

Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

Greth, here's your major obstacle: You come off as an condescending, arrogant, elitist prick. That's my observation based on your article and your replies to those with whom you disagree. Maybe you don't think of yourself as being viewed like that, but I think that a most do see you that way. I don't know you, maybe you're someone I'd like to have a beer with and discuss Tribes gameplay.

I've agreed with some of what you had to say and disagree with the other parts. Your view that T:A should be competition-centric is ludicrous and would be the real game killer. It's a crappy business model where you cater to an extremely small percentage (5%?) and tell the rest to p*** off.

Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one and they all stink. Your's and mine included.

I'm not about to try to disuade you, you're righteously convinced that you're absolutely right and anyone who disagrees is wrong and a noob.

I do have one question for you: Is this your first Tribes game or are you a vet? I ask because of a statement you said about how complex T:A is. It's not complex at all. It doesn't hold a candle to the complexity of T2 and which is why you see so many vets b**** about T:A.

Btw, the TWL ladders had both 7v7 and 12v12.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:17 pm

TheTriforceKid

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:08 pm
Posts: 50

Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

I have to admit that I am guilty of some of this casual gaming business. I play a juggernaut most of the time, and I do my best to hammer the enemy defenses and keep their flag stand clear for my teammates to try and cap their flag. I, too, enjoy playing with friends, and people always complain that, when the games auto-balance is implemented, I'll wait until the teams are unbalanced again and switch back to my friend's team.

While I like to play the game for the sake of playing the game, I have a tendency to get irrationally angered when I constantly die at the hands of one or two players because my teammates aren't following my Spot indicators or paying attention to details.

Rain Dance is a big problem in some aspects, with cappers being able to grab the flag form odd angles, you'd think that someone would be smart and plant a doombringer or two on the flagstand with shields. But that doesn't always happen, so either I switch to Doombringer and do it myself, or, if I am midfield and notice that we have no defense, I'll holler to get some shields on the flag..doesn't always happen.

I'm the type of player whom does not look too kindly on intentional suicide capability. If I'm midfield and something goes wrong at base, I will not kill myself to get back to base more quickly. I will either maintain my original duty of bombarding the enemy base to keep their defenses down, or I will actively try to intercept the flagger on his way back to base.

It's the casual gamer, to me, that is te problem, for hte most part, when it comes to teamplay. They're not in it for the team, they're in it for themselves.

I, too, believe that killcount should not place you at the top of the list at the end of the game. I believe your participation in a team effort should rank you, though how that would be implemented is beyond me.

I, personally, think there should be roughly 1-2 of each class on a team. A team missing this balance tends to get overrun fairly quickly.

Thank you for this article. It's really opened my eyes to some of the s*** I've been guilty of, and will now try to curb my casual ways.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:38 pm

mrboneguy

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 2:05 pm
Posts: 294

Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

So to sum it all up: The gens in these maps aren't important enough to defend.

I agree with you here, they should be more important. This is a failure in map design. If you really believe that the complexity of Tribes is a good thing then you'll agree. When gens are important, so is the role of defending them. And like you said, playing roles is what it's all about. More roles that are meaningful means more complexity, challenge, and fun.

The chance of changing how the masses play this game is roughly 0%. Though, HiRez changing the maps to support more roles and strategy such as making the gens more important and making maps where the flag stand isn't so open that it's stupidly easy to grab the flag, is infinitely more possible.

Now, if they do eventually add better maps with more complexity. Perhaps they could have versions that don't even have a gen, for those people who want a more simplified game, that could be run on custom servers.

Indoor combat is vastly different than outside, some people enjoy it more as it uses new strategies. The fact that the game has classes and equipment that excell in this purpose but none of the maps really give it much point is a core issue with this game.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:41 pm

delayedreflex

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:24 pm
Posts: 401

Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

I agree with much of your article, but I disagree with the premise that the game needs to be hard on newbies (since you seem to suggest that having a situation where it is "easy for everyone" is the death of Tribes). You use the analogy of ball-sacking vs. tennis, but that is a disingenuous analogy. It's a lot more nuanced than that.

Say there's a bunch of kids playing catch - just throwing a baseball around in a field. A couple of older teens come along wanting to play some baseball. "Hey kids, want to play a game of baseball? See, we've got some bats, and we can teach you how to play positions." "No thanks, we'd rather just play catch." "But you're standing in the middle of a baseball diamond! It's a waste to just play catch when we could be playing baseball!"

This is the situation that T:A is in. Casuals deathmatch or llama grab or whatnot in pubs, as that's all that they can manage, and what they are doing IS a subset of the overall game (kids playing catch, or hitting a ball off of a tee). Sometimes they will string something together resembling an actual baseball game, albiet at a lower level (elementary school kids playing baseball). If a few experienced players join a pub, they can dominate and crush the other players (two teens coming and playing against a bunch of elementary school kids). The top players in the game are orders of magnitude better than the casuals, and thus understand balance in a way that casuals don't (kids might think it's only fair to limit pitches to underhand arcs - eg. speed cap - but pros are adapted to fastballs. Another analogy, kids feel much more comfortable on a field much smaller than a MLB field). Casuals don't want to play roles that they find boring, even if they are important (who wants to be an outfielder?).

The solution, you say, is to just tell the newbies to suck it up and get used to losing? Virtually every sport in the world have leagues and divisions where you can play with players of a similar skill level to yours - sure, within an individual league skills will vary substantially, but you don't usually get a group of Division 1 players stomping a group of rec-league players on a consistent basis, as happens in Tribes.

The difference, of course, is that the majority of real-life sports is played either with organized teams or in a pick-up fashion - you don't often get a situation where a couple decent baseball players crash a few kids playing catch and take over their game. Unfortunately, it seems people would rather do that then go to their own field and play catch for a while until more baseball players of their skill level come along so they can start up an actual game of baseball.

I really think everyone would have more fun if there was more segregation between skill levels, instead of having the equivalent of elementary school kids playing with highscoolers in the same field. I agree that there needs to be more rigourous training forced on newbies, as right now it's the equivalent of giving a ball, bat and gloves to a group of people who have only ever played soccer and assume that they know what to do. And I definitely agree that the people who have only ever played catch in elementary school should not be listened to when deciding on the rules and equipment for MLB baseball. But to deride those kids playing catch and teeball as being worthless human beings will NOT make them want to learn how to actually play baseball. The proper thing to do is to give them softballs, small fields, and tees, let them play their own game until they are ready to play actual baseball (which may be never).

Perhaps the one problem is that without mods, you can't really cater to the different skill levels as easily. Actual baseballs make more sense for the pros, but softballs make more sense for the casuals - if there is only one standard, one of the groups is going to suffer. Better to allow the two groups to co-exist, I say. Casuals may petition to change baseball into softball, but if you give them the option to play softball instead of forcing them to play baseball or nothing at all, they can at least be satisfied and the baseball players are happy as well.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:54 pm

Melanious

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:22 pm
Posts: 1985
Location: NA West

Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

Quote:

Greth, here's your major obstacle: You come off as an condescending, arrogant, elitist prick. That's my observation based on your article and your replies to those with whom you disagree

So true.. comp players and their attitudes/egos are truly amazing. For being the very very minority of a player base everyone apparently has to take their words as gospel instead of having their own brain and voice.

Whether you choose to accept it or not 7v7 is a different game and should be treated as a niche community and not catered to by devs. By your logic we should all be out practicing things like rock routes and 300+ caps. I say the opposite, the game physics should be balanced and teamwork encouraged instead, not silly gimmick perks like lightweight implemented. If the comp scene died would we all turn into mindless lemmings of sucktatude that dont know how to play tribes? Hate to break it to you but no, that wouldnt happen.

Casual players are what keeps the game alive. If HiRez bows down to every comp command this game will become a ghost town quick. Fix the game for "casuals" and "pubbers" and comp can adapt with their weapon/class/map bans like they always do instead of making it a watered down boring game they wish to grind out.

_________________

Unstoppable Mid Air Disks - NA West

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:53 pm

IronKane

Beta Tester

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 497

Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

Melanious wrote:

Quote:

Greth, here's your major obstacle: You come off as an condescending, arrogant, elitist prick. That's my observation based on your article and your replies to those with whom you disagree

Just to be clear: I'm NOT calling him names, I'm just pointing out that is how he is perceived to be from how he writes and it something that maybe he should work on if he wants to preach his viewpoint with any measure of success.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:47 pm

joyrock

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:31 am
Posts: 122

Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

IronKane wrote:

Greth, here's your major obstacle: You come off as an condescending, arrogant, elitist prick.

Yeah I think that about sums it up. Trust me I know, I have the condescending thing down pat.

I could only bring myself to skim through it and even that violated a long standing internet rule I made for myself about not bothering to read past the first instance of the use of "entitlement" or any derivative there of. Since that tends to signal the point where any meaningful argument stops.

But it happened so soon and I was sorta set back, I think my exact thought was "Whoa, really, Right out of the gate eh?"

There were some decent points but they were quickly overshadowed.

Really to be blunt its people like Greth that are the reason I don't respect the competitive crowd. Irregardless of the fact that I don't doubt they could WTF PZWN me in a match. Which makes me feel bad when I do encounter a Comp player who I can actually relate to. Because I realize that it isn't the Comp players I really hate its people like him. Its somewhat unfair that I allow that to taint my view of the Comp community as a whole but its really hard not to.

..... On a side note I know I can be condescending as all hell, please tell me I'm not quite that bad?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:48 pm

Greth

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:03 pm
Posts: 968
Location: Belgium
Steam Gamer Name: Greth

Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

joyrock wrote:

IronKane wrote:

Greth, here's your major obstacle: You come off as an condescending, arrogant, elitist prick.

This is quite funny to me. You might want to not judge a book by its cover. The entitlement segment is actually meant for people like you who simply look at a word and offer an opinion because it is used.
This is why I included the dictionary definition of the word so my use of it could not be misinterpreted - of course that doesn't work if you don't even give me a chance to talk about it.

I am frankly insulted by the last few replies. You are completely missing the point and tone of this article because you will it to be an elitist rant.
If you look closely and read carefully I debunk everything you're saying about me. I honestly can't believe you have read the article. You are simply citing the prejudice that I actually try to end.

It is an article that needs to be read as a whole and not taken out of context, there is structure and there is a deliberate buildup of information. You are wrong in the analysis of it and I'd appreciate you looking at my argumentation and not simply taking from it something you have dreamt up.

My words are harsh. But they are to the point. If you disagree with my points, I would like to hear your argumentation instead of muttering 'bah humbug! You can't talk to these people - it almost has a racist tone to it!

And if you think I am attacking the lone player who just wants to play the game you have not read the article correctly.

I am specifically talking about what you are doing now. I am talking about the 'casual' player who badmouths the entire construct of the competitive scene for no reasons other than fear and complete misunderstanding of what the perceived 'competitive scene' is.

The root of the problem is ignorance, which you are demonstrating right here. Hate me for whatever reason you might dream up, but you are proving my point for me, that this community is becoming sick with bile for no reason what so ever.

I'm sorry if I don't take the time to mince words and sugar-coat every little thing I'm saying. When facts get ignored I get confrontational.

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also check out my youtube.com/grethsc channel
and youtube.com/leveluptv for vods and highlights

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:05 pm

Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

nice piece greth, but there is a point to 7's being very different animals from a larger format game.

perhaps it would be best looked at as both being tennis but one being singles and the other being doubles?

but i digress. this point is neither here nor there.

this community... this game has issues.
some are hi rez's fault, some may stem from white listing, as you claim, others are from the fact that we have the equivalent of NFL players and pop warner players trying to lay down a unified rule set for the sport.

there are many problems...and as you implied, the time to fix them is running short.
few people, and fewer gamers have infinite stores of patience.

i thank you for taking the time to say what needed to be said.

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original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:18 pm

mrboneguy

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 2:05 pm
Posts: 294

Re: Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance

When you wrap your 'point' up in arrogance and elitism, many people are just going to walk away. You're basically telling everyone that doesn't play just like you do that they are doing it wrong. Not only are they doing it wrong according to you, but all of their feedback and concerns about this game are invalidated because they don't play your way. I may be crazy, or just bored, but I actually read the whole thing.

The issue here is that you're wrong. Depsite that, you did touch on the gens not being worth much in these maps, which I called out in a previous reply and I do agree about this. However, your soution of everyone needs to play CTF like you is hardly realistic or even a good one.

Not all of the old tribes vets want CTF to only consist of running memorized routes, defending the flag stand, or attacking the flag stand. I'm a tribes vet and I know quite a few others. The problem is that there are quite a few classes that are designed to defend or assault indoor areas (specifically, the gen) and it can be a lot of fun. It's another level of complexity and strategy and that's a great thing.

There's a clear design issue with the game. There are classes meant for gen assault and defense but the gens are barely worth protecting. There's a disconnect here and it's not the players' fault. While it's true that the current CTF maps only support a strategy where you mostly ignore the gen and if you want to win you need to focus on other things, the core problem is that the map design is flawed in that the gen is not useful enough. Or, get rid of the classes that are meant to defend or assault the gen so there's no more issue - but that would be a far more boring option if you ask me.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:25 pm

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Perpetual Newbdom: The Scenes, Teamstacking and Balance