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Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.
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Daekesh Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:46 am Posts: 3203	Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community. jr3951 wrote: second, they will make the rifles do damage around the amount of a bolt launcher (for PTH) while decrease ROF between shots, which A) solves the comp problem of a sniper messing up a capping route by hitting the capper once with any amount of damage (screws up regen) How does decreasing the RoF stop a sniper from messing up regen? Or are you saying that increasing the damage will solve the regen problem by just outright killing the capper? That is a terrible idea. _________________ TTaM, Lumberjack EU Admin and Lead (only?) Coder @ www.GameShrine.org. Tribes: Ascend competition for Europe, Oceania and the US.
Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:24 am

Molybdane Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:23 pm Posts: 220	Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community. jr3951 wrote: Molybdane wrote: ... I think that keeping the DPS level looks good on paper, but it doesn't take into account the reaction time for the targets, the medium armors in particular. The first clue that you're being snpied at is when you take your first hit. Medium armors now require only another hit to finish them off, instead of two. I expect the increase in reload time to actually match the increase in damage, which means the recharge time won't be doubled. So in this case, the medium guy will go down in about 133%ish (1 shot) of the time it takes to snipe someone with a single shot now, instead of 200% (2 shots). ... as to the medium armor scenario, neither of us can guess what the exact time situation will be, but lets assume, 500=850 so 1=1.7 in the time situation(my calculator says exactly 1.7 difference in the fraction 500/850), so a medium armor gets shot at 850 damage leaving about 550 health, he then has the 1.7 time differential to find cover, whereas in the current system he gets shot at 500, leaving 900 health and has a 2.0 time differential to find cover, therefore, you are correct in that he has less time to find cover, but only by roughly just less than 1/6th of the time he has now Furthermore, you just described a possible effect of the balance changes, you never said why it would negatively effect pub matches while benefiting comp matches I'm not going to argue comp play, I am just assuming that a capper who does 300 km/ph or more runs on the flag knows more about balancing comp play than me, a 150+ km/ph heavy capper that retired since CaH came out. This is why I hesitated bringing up numbers. Let's see who is right... Accepting your 500 - 850 shot figures I come up with the following. Let's say it takes 20 seconds for a 500 damage per shot sniper rifle to score 8500 damage. In this situation, it would take 17 shots to score 8500 damage (The 8500 damage is chosen for a reason, bear with me.) Each shot takes me 20 seconds / 17 shots = 1,17 seconds. If the damage per shot is increased to 850 we end up with the following: Keeping the dps the same means these 850 damage shots still need 20 seconds to do 8500 damage. The total damage of 8500 / 850 per shot means it takes 10 shots. Each shot therefor takes 20 seconds / 10 shots = 2 seconds. What this means is that after the first shot hits a medium armor, it will take only 56% of the time it takes now to finish a medium off, and this is taking into account a sniper which can land another two consecutive hits, instead of just one more hit. This is what I call an unexpected result of a well-intentioned change. Stressing the word unexpected, can you tell me this will have NO effect on pub gaming? (Edited for minor typo)
Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:43 am

jr3951 Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:13 pm Posts: 476	Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community. Molybdane wrote: jr3951 wrote: Molybdane wrote: ... I think that keeping the DPS level looks good on paper, but it doesn't take into account the reaction time for the targets, the medium armors in particular. The first clue that you're being snpied at is when you take your first hit. Medium armors now require only another hit to finish them off, instead of two. I expect the increase in reload time to actually match the increase in damage, which means the recharge time won't be doubled. So in this case, the medium guy will go down in about 133%ish (1 shot) of the time it takes to snipe someone with a single shot now, instead of 200% (2 shots). ... as to the medium armor scenario, neither of us can guess what the exact time situation will be, but lets assume, 500=850 so 1=1.7 in the time situation(my calculator says exactly 1.7 difference in the fraction 500/850), so a medium armor gets shot at 850 damage leaving about 550 health, he then has the 1.7 time differential to find cover, whereas in the current system he gets shot at 500, leaving 900 health and has a 2.0 time differential to find cover, therefore, you are correct in that he has less time to find cover, but only by roughly just less than 1/6th of the time he has now Furthermore, you just described a possible effect of the balance changes, you never said why it would negatively effect pub matches while benefiting comp matches I'm not going to argue comp play, I am just assuming that a capper who does 300 km/ph or more runs on the flag knows more about balancing comp play than me, a 150+ km/ph heavy capper that retired since CaH came out. This is why I hesitated bringing up numbers. Let's see who is right... Accepting your 500 - 850 shot figures I come up with the following. Let's say it takes 20 seconds for a 500 damage per shot sniper rifle to score 8500 damage. In this situation, it would take 17 shots to score 8500 damage (The 8500 damage is chosen for a reason, bear with me.) Each shot takes me 20 seconds / 17 shots = 1,17 seconds. If the damage per shot is increased to 850 we end up with the following: Keeping the dps the same means these 850 damage shots still need 20 seconds to do 8500 damage. The total damage of 8500 / 850 per shot means it takes 10 shots. Each shot therefor takes 20 seconds / 10 shots = 2 seconds. What this means is that after the first shot hits a medium armor, it will take only 56% of the time it takes now to finish a medium off, and this is taking into account a sniper which can land another two consecutive hits, instead of just one more hit. This is what I call an unexpected result of a well-intentioned change. Stressing the word unexpected, can you tell me this will have NO effect on pub gaming? (Edited for minor typo) Im coming up with a different calculation than you, using your numbers of current = 1.17 proposed= 2.0, I come up with: current medium armor finish time= 1.173= 3.51 seconds proposed medium armor finish time= 2.02= 4.0 seconds therefore under those proposed numbers and circumstances, a medium armor has 114% of the current time to escape (14% increase) after the changes roll through furthermore, I never said it would have NO effect on pubbing, every change will have an effect to pubbing aswell as comping, but I have requested you to specify how the effect would be negative to pubbing while beneficial to comping if I got the numbers wrong please feel free to correct me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EDIT: ok I see, your not accounting the warmup for the first shot, which I can understand, let me rework the numbers here: current = 1.17 * 2= 2.34 proposed= 2.0 so according to that the difference is not 56% but rather a 17% decrease in escape time, which is back to the calculation in my first post of around 1/6th less time to escape furthermore, proposing that it is easier or harder to kill because the change effects how many shots a sniper needs to land is a moot point, a sniper only needs to land 2 instead of 3 shots, but if he misses one of the 2 he is also punished more harshly aswell in a longer time between shots so for instance lets say he misses his second shot in both scenarios and hits the rest, not counting his initial shot current = 3.51 proposed =4.0 basically my initial numbers before I realized you meant without the initial shot, or a 14% increase in escape time and obviously these values magnify with a larger escape for the "proposed" values as we add more misses between the 2 with the exception of saying the "current" value shooter continues missing the last needed shot So basically better accuracy is rewarded more in the new system,comp v pub doesnt necessarily matter, in a pub people will miss more through inexperience, in a comp people will miss more through the opponents experience Last edited by jr3951 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:33 pm

jr3951 Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:13 pm Posts: 476	Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community. Daekesh wrote: How does decreasing the RoF stop a sniper from messing up regen? Or are you saying that increasing the damage will solve the regen problem by just outright killing the capper? That is a terrible idea. it disallows "spamming" shots at a capper, a capper in a comp match only needs to be hit mid-route with a non-charged shot (minimum damage) to completely mess the route up by disallowing a capper to regen and be able to re-nitron/disc himself and reach a grab-able speed when the route calls for it (or have enough health to not suicide on something [ie rock routes] or make it back after grabbing) causing the capper to "k" out and restart a new one (competitive capping routes have a long wind up period usually), so by decreasing the rate-of-fire you decrease the amount of chances a sniper has to do this (less "spammy")
Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:58 pm

Daekesh Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:46 am Posts: 3203	Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community. So you balance the game for the people bad at sniping? Very eSports of you. I can tell you now, our sniper does not miss. If he's not being killed by somebody, he will hit every capper. _________________ TTaM, Lumberjack EU Admin and Lead (only?) Coder @ www.GameShrine.org. Tribes: Ascend competition for Europe, Oceania and the US.
Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:38 pm

jr3951 Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:13 pm Posts: 476	Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community. Daekesh wrote: If he's not being killed by somebody I think they are also going to add a timer after a sniper respawns where he cant fire, btw what team are you on? and yeah, bad snipers that dont aim get nerfed, good snipers get less of a chance to mess up, but if the opposing team isnt doing anything to your sniper hes still going to own the capper, the mechanic and relationship is still there, and purposefully I think, just with an added layer of necessary skill
Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:00 pm

Daekesh Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:46 am Posts: 3203	Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community. jr3951 wrote: btw what team are you on? See below. _________________ TTaM, Lumberjack EU Admin and Lead (only?) Coder @ www.GameShrine.org. Tribes: Ascend competition for Europe, Oceania and the US. Last edited by Daekesh on Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:02 pm

jr3951 Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:13 pm Posts: 476	Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community. Daekesh wrote: jr3951 wrote: I think they are also going to add a timer after a sniper respawns where he cant fire, btw what team are you on? \/ lol yeah I was re-reading your post and saw your sig, good team
Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:03 pm

Daekesh Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:46 am Posts: 3203	Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community. jr3951 wrote: good team <3 Seriously, though, we're not that great. Massively carried by our sniper! _________________ TTaM, Lumberjack EU Admin and Lead (only?) Coder @ www.GameShrine.org. Tribes: Ascend competition for Europe, Oceania and the US.
Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:04 pm

PROJIE Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:16 am Posts: 294	Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community. Daekesh wrote: jr3951 wrote: good team <3 Seriously, though, we're not that great. Massively carried by our sniper! every team is carried by their sniper, whether they realize it or not. _________________ Stack 'n' Hack - #1 t2 7 man team 311 - #2 base++, #2 classic team icon - #1 classic team exiled arena - #1 arena voted best player all time - t2 competitive community current best t:a player watch me annihilate newbs - www.twitch.tv/projectileomg
Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:07 pm

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Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

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Daekesh

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:46 am
Posts: 3203

Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

jr3951 wrote:

second, they will make the rifles do damage around the amount of a bolt launcher (for PTH) while decrease ROF between shots, which A) solves the comp problem of a sniper messing up a capping route by hitting the capper once with any amount of damage (screws up regen)

How does decreasing the RoF stop a sniper from messing up regen? Or are you saying that increasing the damage will solve the regen problem by just outright killing the capper? That is a terrible idea.

_________________
TTaM, Lumberjack
EU Admin and Lead (only?) Coder @ www.GameShrine.org.
Tribes: Ascend competition for Europe, Oceania and the US.

Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:24 am

Molybdane

Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:23 pm
Posts: 220

Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

jr3951 wrote:

Molybdane wrote:

...

I think that keeping the DPS level looks good on paper, but it doesn't take into account the reaction time for the targets, the medium armors in particular. The first clue that you're being snpied at is when you take your first hit. Medium armors now require only another hit to finish them off, instead of two. I expect the increase in reload time to actually match the increase in damage, which means the recharge time won't be doubled. So in this case, the medium guy will go down in about 133%ish (1 shot) of the time it takes to snipe someone with a single shot now, instead of 200% (2 shots).

...

as to the medium armor scenario, neither of us can guess what the exact time situation will be, but lets assume, 500=850 so 1=1.7 in the time situation(my calculator says exactly 1.7 difference in the fraction 500/850), so a medium armor gets shot at 850 damage leaving about 550 health, he then has the 1.7 time differential to find cover, whereas in the current system he gets shot at 500, leaving 900 health and has a 2.0 time differential to find cover, therefore, you are correct in that he has less time to find cover, but only by roughly just less than 1/6th of the time he has now

Furthermore, you just described a possible effect of the balance changes, you never said why it would negatively effect pub matches while benefiting comp matches

I'm not going to argue comp play, I am just assuming that a capper who does 300 km/ph or more runs on the flag knows more about balancing comp play than me, a 150+ km/ph heavy capper that retired since CaH came out.

This is why I hesitated bringing up numbers. Let's see who is right...

Accepting your 500 - 850 shot figures I come up with the following. Let's say it takes 20 seconds for a 500 damage per shot sniper rifle to score 8500 damage. In this situation, it would take 17 shots to score 8500 damage (The 8500 damage is chosen for a reason, bear with me.)

Each shot takes me 20 seconds / 17 shots = 1,17 seconds.

If the damage per shot is increased to 850 we end up with the following: Keeping the dps the same means these 850 damage shots still need 20 seconds to do 8500 damage. The total damage of 8500 / 850 per shot means it takes 10 shots.

Each shot therefor takes 20 seconds / 10 shots = 2 seconds.

What this means is that after the first shot hits a medium armor, it will take only 56% of the time it takes now to finish a medium off, and this is taking into account a sniper which can land another two consecutive hits, instead of just one more hit.

This is what I call an unexpected result of a well-intentioned change. Stressing the word unexpected, can you tell me this will have NO effect on pub gaming?

(Edited for minor typo)

Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:43 am

jr3951

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:13 pm
Posts: 476

Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

Molybdane wrote:

jr3951 wrote:

Molybdane wrote:

Im coming up with a different calculation than you, using your numbers of current = 1.17 proposed= 2.0, I come up with:

current medium armor finish time= 1.17*3= 3.51 seconds
proposed medium armor finish time= 2.0*2= 4.0 seconds

therefore under those proposed numbers and circumstances, a medium armor has 114% of the current time to escape (14% increase) after the changes roll through

furthermore, I never said it would have NO effect on pubbing, every change will have an effect to pubbing aswell as comping, but I have requested you to specify how the effect would be negative to pubbing while beneficial to comping

if I got the numbers wrong please feel free to correct me

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: ok I see, your not accounting the warmup for the first shot, which I can understand, let me rework the numbers here:

current = 1.17 * 2= 2.34
proposed= 2.0

so according to that the difference is not 56% but rather a 17% decrease in escape time, which is back to the calculation in my first post of around 1/6th less time to escape

furthermore, proposing that it is easier or harder to kill because the change effects how many shots a sniper needs to land is a moot point, a sniper only needs to land 2 instead of 3 shots, but if he misses one of the 2 he is also punished more harshly aswell in a longer time between shots

so for instance lets say he misses his second shot in both scenarios and hits the rest, not counting his initial shot

current = 3.51
proposed =4.0

basically my initial numbers before I realized you meant without the initial shot, or a 14% increase in escape time

and obviously these values magnify with a larger escape for the "proposed" values as we add more misses between the 2 with the exception of saying the "current" value shooter continues missing the last needed shot

So basically better accuracy is rewarded more in the new system,comp v pub doesnt necessarily matter, in a pub people will miss more through inexperience, in a comp people will miss more through the opponents experience

Last edited by jr3951 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:33 pm

jr3951

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:13 pm
Posts: 476

Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

Daekesh wrote:

it disallows "spamming" shots at a capper, a capper in a comp match only needs to be hit mid-route with a non-charged shot (minimum damage) to completely mess the route up by disallowing a capper to regen and be able to re-nitron/disc himself and reach a grab-able speed when the route calls for it (or have enough health to not suicide on something [ie rock routes] or make it back after grabbing) causing the capper to "k" out and restart a new one (competitive capping routes have a long wind up period usually), so by decreasing the rate-of-fire you decrease the amount of chances a sniper has to do this (less "spammy")

Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:58 pm

Daekesh

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:46 am
Posts: 3203

Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

So you balance the game for the people bad at sniping? Very eSports of you. I can tell you now, our sniper does not miss. If he's not being killed by somebody, he will hit every capper.

_________________
TTaM, Lumberjack
EU Admin and Lead (only?) Coder @ www.GameShrine.org.
Tribes: Ascend competition for Europe, Oceania and the US.

Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:38 pm

jr3951

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:13 pm
Posts: 476

Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

Daekesh wrote:

If he's not being killed by somebody

I think they are also going to add a timer after a sniper respawns where he cant fire, btw what team are you on?

and yeah, bad snipers that dont aim get nerfed, good snipers get less of a chance to mess up, but if the opposing team isnt doing anything to your sniper hes still going to own the capper, the mechanic and relationship is still there, and purposefully I think, just with an added layer of necessary skill

Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:00 pm

Daekesh

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:46 am
Posts: 3203

Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

jr3951 wrote:

btw what team are you on?

See below.

_________________
TTaM, Lumberjack
EU Admin and Lead (only?) Coder @ www.GameShrine.org.
Tribes: Ascend competition for Europe, Oceania and the US.

Last edited by Daekesh on Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:02 pm

jr3951

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:13 pm
Posts: 476

Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

Daekesh wrote:

jr3951 wrote:

I think they are also going to add a timer after a sniper respawns where he cant fire, btw what team are you on?

lol yeah I was re-reading your post and saw your sig, good team

Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:03 pm

Daekesh

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:46 am
Posts: 3203

Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

jr3951 wrote:

good team

Seriously, though, we're not that great. Massively carried by our sniper!

_________________
TTaM, Lumberjack
EU Admin and Lead (only?) Coder @ www.GameShrine.org.
Tribes: Ascend competition for Europe, Oceania and the US.

Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:04 pm

PROJIE

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:16 am
Posts: 294

Re: Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.

Daekesh wrote:

jr3951 wrote:

good team

Seriously, though, we're not that great. Massively carried by our sniper!

every team is carried by their sniper, whether they realize it or not.

_________________
Stack 'n' Hack - #1 t2 7 man
team 311 - #2 base++, #2 classic
team icon - #1 classic
team exiled arena - #1 arena

voted best player all time - t2 competitive community
current best t:a player
watch me annihilate newbs - www.twitch.tv/projectileomg

Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:07 pm

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Competitive Players Don't/Shouldn't Represent The Community.