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It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.
Author	Message
mogonk Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:54 am Posts: 365	Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us. dsiOne wrote: lol @ trying to make the "If you want Tribes 2 go play it!" argument, great job completely denying yourself of any credibility. See, I would actually say that anyone who doesn't reject the knee-jerk reactionary attitude of this forum that if it's different from T2 it's bad has lost all credibility. But I guess different people interpret things differently. How unexpected.
Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:58 pm

Overrwatcher Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:05 am Posts: 9	Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us. Let me reply to some of the responses: Quote: TRIBES 1 & 2 WERE BETTER Take off your nostalgia glasses. To me (A modern gamer who never heard of Tribes before Ascend was announced), the first two Tribes are very outdated and clunky, and aren't worth trying to find a decent server. They must have been excellent games back then, but they are unplayable for a modern gamer today. If Tribes 1 & 2 were just released today, it wouldn't be well-received. Quote: STOP SAYING HIREZ ISN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG I did not say that HiRez is flawless. There is still a ton of easy-to-fix things that HiRez overlooks, like the Bounty Hunter perk (JUST REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME), pricing of weapons, and several other stuff. However, they aren't a AAA studio with hundreds of workers. We are also responsible for some of the problems. illerFFN wrote: Disagree with the OP as this was a biased and misleading presentation. The entire story of every example wasn't told. IE: He's omitting a lot of key details on why complaints kept being made. Prime Example: INF & RDR updates gave o^p weapons to classes that were already seen as devastating or high scoring. The real argument was unpopular classes getting underpowered updates. The case was one of consistency and HiRez proved they are consistent in ignoring their Forum critics because the datamining metrics said otherwise. (go Brute, rush gen room, spam Fractal get multiple kills, rinse repeat despite being the most useless class in the entire game). You are right about your points, but one thing about the class pack OP/UP thing that you made me realize. The problem with the INF and RDR packs were that it changed their roles. Infiltrator goes from gen offense to a master of harassment. Raider goes from asset/room clearing to more of a jack-of-all-trades like the Soldier. The BRT pack didn't change his role, but instead kept him in the (currently useless) role of indoor combat. He is now fantastic at his role (Gladiator is powerful if you can aim, Plasma Cannon is super OP, Survival Pack is decent), but he still is in the useless role. Now that I am hearing the other side of the story, I realize that there definitely is something wrong.
Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:44 pm

Fumigator Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:56 pm Posts: 473	Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us. Overrwatcher wrote: Take off your nostalgia glasses. To me (A modern gamer who never heard of Tribes before Ascend was announced), the first two Tribes are very outdated and clunky, and aren't worth trying to find a decent server. They must have been excellent games back then, but they are unplayable for a modern gamer today. If Tribes 1 & 2 were just released today, it wouldn't be well-received. How does one admit to not playing or knowing about T1/2 and then proceed to assert how it wouldn't be well received today? I'm fairly confidant Hi-Rez thought (read: counted on) Ascend being at least as well received as those games. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have bet on Tribes by buying the license. Those games did really well for their time. T2 sold 400k copies; considering most people were on dial-up, it was, imo, astonishing. Netcode was good, far better than what we have now. My guess is they'd be popular games if they were released today with all of today's bells and whistles? There were elements of those games that we're now trying to recreate in Ascend, which suggests they were good. What also suggests they were good is the simple fact that even 15 years later, if you want, you can still find a game of T1. Let that sink in... as "outdated" and "clunky" as they are (and after 15 years they do seem that way) today's gamers are still playing. To say that they would flop if released today, (the implication being they wouldn't be modernized versions but instead bit for bit recreations of the originals) is disingenuous (see: Ascend). I would argue that's what not being well received is Ascend. It's real easy to tell if your game is successful or not: how many people play it? The very fact that this universal gaming metric is being intentionally withheld from us is revealing. Instead, what they give us is how many accounts were created; even worse, now they're touting how many times this (free) game has been downloaded. If that's your metric, misleading as it is, then things must really be bad. _________________
Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:03 pm

Maidere Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 6:53 pm Posts: 696	Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us. Overrwatcher wrote: However, they aren't a AAA studio with hundreds of workers. We are also responsible for some of the problems. http://www.hirezstudios.com/hirezwp/?cat=10 Quote: Hi-Rez Studios, independent developer of AAA free-to-play online games Honestly, Hirez are doing pretty good job with TA. But it will be way better if they will stop calling it AAA. It's close to AAA, but it's not AAA imo. _________________ Newmz wrote: "I want an orbital strike at x location" "sorry, but it's more than 200m away from you so we can't shoot it from space" sorry for my bad english
Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:30 pm

dsiOne Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:14 pm Posts: 327 Steam Gamer Name: dsi1	Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us. mogonk wrote: dsiOne wrote: lol @ trying to make the "If you want Tribes 2 go play it!" argument, great job completely denying yourself of any credibility. See, I would actually say that anyone who doesn't reject the knee-jerk reactionary attitude of this forum that if it's different from T2 it's bad has lost all credibility. But I guess different people interpret things differently. How unexpected. Melchi32 wrote: dsiOne wrote: lol @ trying to make the "If you want Tribes 2 go play it!" argument, great job completely denying yourself of any credibility. Wait what? What does credibility do here? If YOU want Tribes 2, GO play it! Get out of Ascend. We don't need fake brainless nostalgic rage. Let me spell this out for you: (most) people don't want Tribes 2 in HD, they want a sequel to Tribes 2. They want a game that improves on Tribes 2, not something that removes weapons and features, dumbs down the game (not simplifies it, there is a difference) and is even more terribly inconsistent/buggy. _________________ 100% Inheritance: It's 100% Intuitive and 100% Natural. \|\| Add Targeting Lasers Having to aim from a reference point that doesnt exist is not an intuitive or newbie friendly feature, and it will hurt the game in the long run
Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:17 am

Lesteriuse Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:39 pm Posts: 1810 Location: Zagreb, Croatia	Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us. Wh1skyJak wrote: Yeah, people should calm down with their complaints. This game is a huge success... ...oh...wait Actually, it seems that there are much more players than you think. Some EU players actually got rerouted to NA east servers last Friday because the EU servers were full. _________________ A thread on performance bottlenecks in the engine and what needs to be optimised My blueplate/mid-air nitron montage
Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:17 am

Pingles Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:28 pm Posts: 1733	Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us. Lesteriuse wrote: Actually, it seems that there are much more players than you think. Some EU players actually got rerouted to NA east servers last Friday because the EU servers were full. Fascinating! _________________
Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:37 am

IronKane Beta Tester Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 497	Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us. Overrwatcher wrote: Let me reply to some of the responses: Quote: TRIBES 1 & 2 WERE BETTER Take off your nostalgia glasses. To me (A modern gamer who never heard of Tribes before Ascend was announced), the first two Tribes are very outdated and clunky, and aren't worth trying to find a decent server. They must have been excellent games back then, but they are unplayable for a modern gamer today. If Tribes 1 & 2 were just released today, it wouldn't be well-received. WTF is a "Modern Gamer"? A sub 18 yr old who grew up playing Mario on his console? I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. It makes no sense. Somehow it's become that if you've been playing shooters for 15+ years, you're not able to appreciate what makes a good game compared to a 15 yr old who's been playing only a few years? "the first two Tribes are very outdated and clunky..." Yep, they are old and graphics-wise are very outdated if all you're interested in is Eye Candy. What has that to do, even remotely, with good game design? T2 is still by far the best TEAM ORIENTED shooter ever made. If Hi-Rez did nothing but update T2 to a new game engine, everyone would love the game and then bash Hi-Rez for capitalizing on Dynamix's game design without adding any of their own intellectual property. My 19 yr old son is what you'd call a "Modern Gamer" and while he loves T:A, he's off playing Diablo III, CoD MW and all the other titles because of bad gameplay design in T:A. And of course he's heard of Tribes 2, I raised him right and had him playing PC Shooters as soon as he was old enough and he used to play T2 quite a bit. Also, his XBox pretty much sits idle so maybe he's not really a "Modern Gamer".
Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:27 pm

Firerizer Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:35 pm Posts: 1318	Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us. I am still waiting for Tribes:Evolution... That which brings the best of all Tribes versions... Maintaining historical artifacts and procedures, as well as, thought out new additions and concepts. Maybe, when all is said and done, it will be renamed... Tribes:Ultimate...?
Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:28 pm

mousedisc Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am Posts: 531	Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us. Given that this version actually has managed to rope in t1, t2, and t:v players AND new people not used to tribes, I would say we're already in the middle of tribes:ultimate. _________________ ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS
Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:26 pm

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It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

Author

Message

mogonk

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:54 am
Posts: 365

Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

dsiOne wrote:

lol @ trying to make the "If you want Tribes 2 go play it!" argument, great job completely denying yourself of any credibility.

See, I would actually say that anyone who doesn't reject the knee-jerk reactionary attitude of this forum that if it's different from T2 it's bad has lost all credibility.

But I guess different people interpret things differently. How unexpected.

Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:58 pm

Overrwatcher

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:05 am
Posts: 9

Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

Let me reply to some of the responses:

Quote:

TRIBES 1 & 2 WERE BETTER

Take off your nostalgia glasses. To me (A modern gamer who never heard of Tribes before Ascend was announced), the first two Tribes are very outdated and clunky, and aren't worth trying to find a decent server. They must have been excellent games back then, but they are unplayable for a modern gamer today. If Tribes 1 & 2 were just released today, it wouldn't be well-received.

Quote:

STOP SAYING HIREZ ISN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG

I did not say that HiRez is flawless. There is still a ton of easy-to-fix things that HiRez overlooks, like the Bounty Hunter perk (JUST REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME), pricing of weapons, and several other stuff. However, they aren't a AAA studio with hundreds of workers. We are also responsible for some of the problems.

illerFFN wrote:

Disagree with the OP as this was a biased and misleading presentation. The entire story of every example wasn't told. IE: He's omitting a lot of key details on why complaints kept being made. Prime Example: INF & RDR updates gave o^p weapons to classes that were already seen as devastating or high scoring. The real argument was unpopular classes getting underpowered updates. The case was one of consistency and HiRez proved they are consistent in ignoring their Forum critics because the datamining metrics said otherwise. (go Brute, rush gen room, spam Fractal get multiple kills, rinse repeat despite being the most useless class in the entire game).

You are right about your points, but one thing about the class pack OP/UP thing that you made me realize. The problem with the INF and RDR packs were that it changed their roles. Infiltrator goes from gen offense to a master of harassment. Raider goes from asset/room clearing to more of a jack-of-all-trades like the Soldier. The BRT pack didn't change his role, but instead kept him in the (currently useless) role of indoor combat. He is now fantastic at his role (Gladiator is powerful if you can aim, Plasma Cannon is super OP, Survival Pack is decent), but he still is in the useless role. Now that I am hearing the other side of the story, I realize that there definitely is something wrong.

Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:44 pm

Fumigator

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:56 pm
Posts: 473

Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

Overrwatcher wrote:

How does one admit to not playing or knowing about T1/2 and then proceed to assert how it wouldn't be well received today? I'm fairly confidant Hi-Rez thought (read: counted on) Ascend being at least as well received as those games. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have bet on Tribes by buying the license.

Those games did really well for their time. T2 sold 400k copies; considering most people were on dial-up, it was, imo, astonishing. Netcode was good, far better than what we have now. My guess is they'd be popular games if they were released today with all of today's bells and whistles? There were elements of those games that we're now trying to recreate in Ascend, which suggests they were good. What also suggests they were good is the simple fact that even 15 years later, if you want, you can still find a game of T1. Let that sink in... as "outdated" and "clunky" as they are (and after 15 years they do seem that way) today's gamers are still playing. To say that they would flop if released today, (the implication being they wouldn't be modernized versions but instead bit for bit recreations of the originals) is disingenuous (see: Ascend).

I would argue that's what not being well received is Ascend. It's real easy to tell if your game is successful or not: how many people play it? The very fact that this universal gaming metric is being intentionally withheld from us is revealing. Instead, what they give us is how many accounts were created; even worse, now they're touting how many times this (free) game has been downloaded. If that's your metric, misleading as it is, then things must really be bad.

_________________

Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:03 pm

Maidere

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 6:53 pm
Posts: 696

Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

Overrwatcher wrote:

However, they aren't a AAA studio with hundreds of workers. We are also responsible for some of the problems.

http://www.hirezstudios.com/hirezwp/?cat=10

Quote:

Hi-Rez Studios, independent developer of AAA free-to-play online games

Honestly, Hirez are doing pretty good job with TA. But it will be way better if they will stop calling it AAA. It's close to AAA, but it's not AAA imo.

_________________

Newmz wrote:

"I want an orbital strike at x location"
"sorry, but it's more than 200m away from you so we can't shoot it from space"

sorry for my bad english

Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:30 pm

dsiOne

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:14 pm
Posts: 327
Steam Gamer Name: dsi1

Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

mogonk wrote:

dsiOne wrote:

lol @ trying to make the "If you want Tribes 2 go play it!" argument, great job completely denying yourself of any credibility.

Melchi32 wrote:

dsiOne wrote:

lol @ trying to make the "If you want Tribes 2 go play it!" argument, great job completely denying yourself of any credibility.

Wait what? What does credibility do here? If YOU want Tribes 2, GO play it! Get out of Ascend. We don't need fake brainless nostalgic rage.

Let me spell this out for you: (most) people don't want Tribes 2 in HD, they want a sequel to Tribes 2.

They want a game that improves on Tribes 2, not something that removes weapons and features, dumbs down the game (not simplifies it, there is a difference) and is even more terribly inconsistent/buggy.

_________________
100% Inheritance: It's 100% Intuitive and 100% Natural. || Add Targeting Lasers
Having to aim from a reference point that doesnt exist is not an intuitive or newbie friendly feature, and it will hurt the game in the long run

Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:17 am

Lesteriuse

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:39 pm
Posts: 1810
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

Wh1skyJak wrote:

Yeah, people should calm down with their complaints. This game is a huge success...
...oh...wait

Actually, it seems that there are much more players than you think. Some EU players actually got rerouted to NA east servers last Friday because the EU servers were full.

_________________

A thread on performance bottlenecks in the engine and what needs to be optimised
My blueplate/mid-air nitron montage

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:17 am

Pingles

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1733

Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

Lesteriuse wrote:

Actually, it seems that there are much more players than you think. Some EU players actually got rerouted to NA east servers last Friday because the EU servers were full.

Fascinating!

_________________

Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:37 am

IronKane

Beta Tester

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 497

Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

Overrwatcher wrote:

Let me reply to some of the responses:

Quote:

TRIBES 1 & 2 WERE BETTER

WTF is a "Modern Gamer"? A sub 18 yr old who grew up playing Mario on his console? I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. It makes no sense. Somehow it's become that if you've been playing shooters for 15+ years, you're not able to appreciate what makes a good game compared to a 15 yr old who's been playing only a few years?

"the first two Tribes are very outdated and clunky..." Yep, they are old and graphics-wise are very outdated if all you're interested in is Eye Candy. What has that to do, even remotely, with good game design? T2 is still by far the best TEAM ORIENTED shooter ever made. If Hi-Rez did nothing but update T2 to a new game engine, everyone would love the game and then bash Hi-Rez for capitalizing on Dynamix's game design without adding any of their own intellectual property.

My 19 yr old son is what you'd call a "Modern Gamer" and while he loves T:A, he's off playing Diablo III, CoD MW and all the other titles because of bad gameplay design in T:A. And of course he's heard of Tribes 2, I raised him right and had him playing PC Shooters as soon as he was old enough and he used to play T2 quite a bit. Also, his XBox pretty much sits idle so maybe he's not really a "Modern Gamer".

Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:27 pm

Firerizer

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:35 pm
Posts: 1318

Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

I am still waiting for Tribes:Evolution...
That which brings the best of all Tribes versions...
Maintaining historical artifacts and procedures, as well as, thought out
new additions and concepts.
Maybe, when all is said and done, it will be renamed...
Tribes:Ultimate...?

Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:28 pm

mousedisc

Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:38 am
Posts: 531

Re: It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.

Given that this version actually has managed to rope in t1, t2, and t:v players AND new people not used to tribes, I would say we're already in the middle of tribes:ultimate.

_________________
ADD CONFIGURABLE CROSSHAIRS: + * . O
RELEASE MAPPING TOOLS

Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:26 pm

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It's not always HiRez's fault. Sometimes it's us.