Tribes:Ascend Forums

FAQ • Login • Register

Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]
Author	Message
Thundertactics Beta Tester Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:34 am Posts: 661 Location: The Netherlands	Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion] [Yes, this is obviously a response to the continued debate on the balance of automatics] Let me get straight to the point: Automatics offer far too much leeway. It's really the same issue the Plasma Gun had/has. First off, I can absolutely respect someone who can trace an opponent for a prolonged time and make every bullet hit, turning whoever they're up against into swiss cheese in a matter of seconds. However, while this particular skill ceiling is fairly high, it's really not that different from a significantly less skilled player tracing for a short period, then adjusting a slight bit whenever a few bullets miss. That's what I mean by leeway, there's no risk involved in missing, not when you can compensate in a matter of moments due to the target probably not being too far off from your crosshair and you being able to see exactly by how much you missed the last time. This contrary to explosive weapons, which have such a long period between shots that they require nearly as much thought for the second shot as the first one did, due to the target having long since repositioned itself. (Now consider the Plasma Gun: Due to its rapid fire, you're able to compensate for any missed shot nearly as easily as you would with an automatic, because you know how far off you were. But that's really all I have to say about it, this suggestion is about automatics.) As such, I suggest raising the skill floor by offering a significant penalty for missing (and simply spraying in an attempt to finish someone off) while rewarding those who are able to trace consistently. I propose automatics should offer an exponential increase in damage whenever you hit someone consecutively. Starting off at a much lower damage per projectile than they have currently, but capping off at a slightly higher damage than they have now to maintain a similar damage output. This means that those keeping track of their opponent and effectively tracing them will see no real decrease in their effectiveness, while less skilled players will have a significantly harder time - constantly seeing their damage dropped down whenever they miss and taking significantly more time to take someone out. As a result, the current fall-off will perhaps not be as necessary anymore, since hitting someone at range consistently will be much more difficult (and thus deal less damage) regardless. --Mind you, this is just a suggestion I dreamt up a few hours ago and obviously hasn't been field-tested at any point. It also doesn't pertain to the Chaingun, since that's attached to a nearly immobile class with a largely defensive role and no truly effective secondary. (Also, tradition and such. Though that kinda went out the window anyway when they got rid of its 100% inheritance.) _________________ It's a great sig™
Thu May 31, 2012 5:41 am

VIChiefIV Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:06 am Posts: 223	Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion] I find the idea very interesting but I think an easier solution to the problem would be to remove the frequency at which a tracer round is fired. As it stands every bullet has a tracer, and reducing this to lets say 1 in 5 rounds would already mean you need to develop more skill in aiming as there is a delay between firing somewhere and seeing how far off the marker you are. _________________ Member of The Conclave (www.conclave.cc) The time is always right to do what is right. -Martin Luther King- Last edited by VIChiefIV on Thu May 31, 2012 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thu May 31, 2012 6:59 am

ebonyknife Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 6:17 am Posts: 519	Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion] Autos already have a higher skill floor than explosives though... Why do you think explosives are used so much more by the general community? Because its not that difficult to splash damage people... And all your suggestion does is make chasing even harder than it is right now, while making short-midrange combat on airborne targets even stronger (and isnt that exactly what people DON'T want?). _________________ Autos are fine, stop bitchin
Thu May 31, 2012 7:14 am

mogonk Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:54 am Posts: 365	Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion] ebonyknife wrote: Autos already have a higher skill floor than explosives though...
Thu May 31, 2012 7:16 am

Thundertactics Beta Tester Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:34 am Posts: 661 Location: The Netherlands	Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion] ebonyknife wrote: Autos already have a higher skill floor than explosives though... Why do you think explosives are used so much more by the general community? Because its not that difficult to splash damage people... I figured because it's just more fun to use them. (You know, because the automatics sound and feel like peashooters and getting mid-airs with explosives is just about the most statisfying kind of kill in the game.) I perform much better just going about with the NJ4 on the Raider than I do as a Soldier with the Spinfusor, but I still prefer the latter by a significant margin. The "shooting of feet" is highly situational and still requires more consideration and involves more risk than unloading an SMG. The only situation where they're obviously easier to use is indoors. However, this ebonyknife wrote: And all your suggestion does is make chasing even harder than it is right now, while making short-midrange combat on airborne targets even stronger (and isnt that exactly what people DON'T want?). is a good point. But chasing against any decent (300+ sanics) capper is already pretty much impossible as-is. _________________ It's a great sig™
Thu May 31, 2012 7:36 am

MrLordcaptain Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm Posts: 654	Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion] mogonk wrote: ebonyknife wrote: Autos already have a higher skill floor than explosives though... This is true. Still I would suggest making the reload time of automatics far longer (buff damage for balance dps). As long as a SF or longer. These downtimes would be enough to punish missing far harder (as with explosivs). Atm reload speed is redicilous. _________________ Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns
Thu May 31, 2012 7:37 am

mifly Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:24 am Posts: 913	Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion] mogonk wrote: ebonyknife wrote: Autos already have a higher skill floor than explosives though... And that's why this suggestion is bad. It wouldn't hurt players that can aim, but it would make autos useless for newbs. Instead, I have suggestion: Raise the Skill Floor of Explosives [Suggestion] For example by drastically lowering splash damage radius. Thanks to it, newbs with poor aim would realize that they suck with EVERY weapon, not only autos. It would as well end the whine about autos in forums.
Thu May 31, 2012 8:13 am

Thundertactics Beta Tester Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:34 am Posts: 661 Location: The Netherlands	Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion] So... mifly wrote: Thanks to it, newbs with poor aim would realize that they suck with EVERY weapon, not only autos. They suck with autos. mifly wrote: It wouldn't hurt players that can aim, but it would make autos useless for newbs. But they're not useless with them. And how would nerfing the explosives help against the perception that the autos are easy to use? And I think there's some perception issue here, because autos are (Look, ma! I can talk in absolutes too!) considerably easier to pick up and use than slow firing, slow moving, potentially arcing, inheritance-affected projectiles - potential splash damage or not. The only point where hitting people with splash damage is consistently easier than hitting them with auto's is the initial level bracket where nobody's figured out how to ski properly or manage their energy yet. _________________ It's a great sig™
Thu May 31, 2012 8:34 am

Immie Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:10 pm Posts: 1310	Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion] Autos being easy for noobs is a misconception. It's just flat out more difficult to land a long series of bullets on someone than splash them twice when they touch the ground. The whole "autos are super easy to use" argument is what Todd's post proved wrong. _________________ Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes.
Thu May 31, 2012 10:00 am

sparkest Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:04 pm Posts: 1425	Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion] Immie wrote: It's just flat out more difficult to land a long series of bullets on someone than splash them twice when they touch the ground. The whole "autos are super easy to use" argument is what Todd's post proved wrong. don't kid yourself. Its not that difficult. If you have any tracking aim at all, you can rape face with autos.
Thu May 31, 2012 10:50 am

Display posts from previous: Sort by

Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

Author

Message

Thundertactics

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:34 am
Posts: 661
Location: The Netherlands

Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

[Yes, this is obviously a response to the continued debate on the balance of automatics]

Let me get straight to the point: Automatics offer far too much leeway. It's really the same issue the Plasma Gun had/has.

First off, I can absolutely respect someone who can trace an opponent for a prolonged time and make every bullet hit, turning whoever they're up against into swiss cheese in a matter of seconds.
However, while this particular skill ceiling is fairly high, it's really not that different from a significantly less skilled player tracing for a short period, then adjusting a slight bit whenever a few bullets miss.

That's what I mean by leeway, there's no risk involved in missing, not when you can compensate in a matter of moments due to the target probably not being too far off from your crosshair and you being able to see exactly by how much you missed the last time. This contrary to explosive weapons, which have such a long period between shots that they require nearly as much thought for the second shot as the first one did, due to the target having long since repositioned itself.
(Now consider the Plasma Gun: Due to its rapid fire, you're able to compensate for any missed shot nearly as easily as you would with an automatic, because you know how far off you were. But that's really all I have to say about it, this suggestion is about automatics.)

As such, I suggest raising the skill floor by offering a significant penalty for missing (and simply spraying in an attempt to finish someone off) while rewarding those who are able to trace consistently.

I propose automatics should offer an exponential increase in damage whenever you hit someone consecutively. Starting off at a much lower damage per projectile than they have currently, but capping off at a slightly higher damage than they have now to maintain a similar damage output.

This means that those keeping track of their opponent and effectively tracing them will see no real decrease in their effectiveness, while less skilled players will have a significantly harder time - constantly seeing their damage dropped down whenever they miss and taking significantly more time to take someone out.

As a result, the current fall-off will perhaps not be as necessary anymore, since hitting someone at range consistently will be much more difficult (and thus deal less damage) regardless.

--Mind you, this is just a suggestion I dreamt up a few hours ago and obviously hasn't been field-tested at any point. It also doesn't pertain to the Chaingun, since that's attached to a nearly immobile class with a largely defensive role and no truly effective secondary. (Also, tradition and such. Though that kinda went out the window anyway when they got rid of its 100% inheritance.)

_________________
It's a great sig™

Thu May 31, 2012 5:41 am

VIChiefIV

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:06 am
Posts: 223

Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

I find the idea very interesting but I think an easier solution to the problem would be to remove the frequency at which a tracer round is fired. As it stands every bullet has a tracer, and reducing this to lets say 1 in 5 rounds would already mean you need to develop more skill in aiming as there is a delay between firing somewhere and seeing how far off the marker you are.

_________________
Member of The Conclave (www.conclave.cc)
The time is always right to do what is right. -Martin Luther King-

Last edited by VIChiefIV on Thu May 31, 2012 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thu May 31, 2012 6:59 am

ebonyknife

Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 6:17 am
Posts: 519

Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

Autos already have a higher skill floor than explosives though...

Why do you think explosives are used so much more by the general community? Because its not that difficult to splash damage people...

And all your suggestion does is make chasing even harder than it is right now, while making short-midrange combat on airborne targets even stronger (and isnt that exactly what people DON'T want?).

_________________
Autos are fine, stop bitchin

Thu May 31, 2012 7:14 am

mogonk

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:54 am
Posts: 365

Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

ebonyknife wrote:

Autos already have a higher skill floor than explosives though...

Thu May 31, 2012 7:16 am

Thundertactics

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:34 am
Posts: 661
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

ebonyknife wrote:

I figured because it's just more fun to use them. (You know, because the automatics sound and feel like peashooters and getting mid-airs with explosives is just about the most statisfying kind of kill in the game.) I perform much better just going about with the NJ4 on the Raider than I do as a Soldier with the Spinfusor, but I still prefer the latter by a significant margin. The "shooting of feet" is highly situational and still requires more consideration and involves more risk than unloading an SMG. The only situation where they're obviously easier to use is indoors.

However, this

ebonyknife wrote:

And all your suggestion does is make chasing even harder than it is right now, while making short-midrange combat on airborne targets even stronger (and isnt that exactly what people DON'T want?).

is a good point. But chasing against any decent (300+ sanics) capper is already pretty much impossible as-is.

_________________
It's a great sig™

Thu May 31, 2012 7:36 am

MrLordcaptain

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 pm
Posts: 654

Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

mogonk wrote:

ebonyknife wrote:

Autos already have a higher skill floor than explosives though...

This is true.
Still I would suggest making the reload time of automatics far longer (buff damage for balance dps). As long as a SF or longer. These downtimes would be enough to punish missing far harder (as with explosivs).
Atm reload speed is redicilous.

_________________
Remove hitscan from pistols and shotguns

Thu May 31, 2012 7:37 am

mifly

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:24 am
Posts: 913

Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

mogonk wrote:

ebonyknife wrote:

Autos already have a higher skill floor than explosives though...

And that's why this suggestion is bad.
It wouldn't hurt players that can aim, but it would make autos useless for newbs.

Instead, I have suggestion:
Raise the Skill Floor of Explosives [Suggestion]
For example by drastically lowering splash damage radius.

Thanks to it, newbs with poor aim would realize that they suck with EVERY weapon, not only autos.
It would as well end the whine about autos in forums.

Thu May 31, 2012 8:13 am

Thundertactics

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:34 am
Posts: 661
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

So...

mifly wrote:

Thanks to it, newbs with poor aim would realize that they suck with EVERY weapon, not only autos.

They suck with autos.

mifly wrote:

It wouldn't hurt players that can aim, but it would make autos useless for newbs.

But they're not useless with them.
And how would nerfing the explosives help against the perception that the autos are easy to use?

And I think there's some perception issue here, because autos are (Look, ma! I can talk in absolutes too!) considerably easier to pick up and use than slow firing, slow moving, potentially arcing, inheritance-affected projectiles - potential splash damage or not. The only point where hitting people with splash damage is consistently easier than hitting them with auto's is the initial level bracket where nobody's figured out how to ski properly or manage their energy yet.

_________________
It's a great sig™

Thu May 31, 2012 8:34 am

Immie

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:10 pm
Posts: 1310

Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

Autos being easy for noobs is a misconception. It's just flat out more difficult to land a long series of bullets on someone than splash them twice when they touch the ground. The whole "autos are super easy to use" argument is what Todd's post proved wrong.

_________________
Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes.

Thu May 31, 2012 10:00 am

sparkest

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:04 pm
Posts: 1425

Re: Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]

Immie wrote:

It's just flat out more difficult to land a long series of bullets on someone than splash them twice when they touch the ground. The whole "autos are super easy to use" argument is what Todd's post proved wrong.

don't kid yourself. Its not that difficult. If you have any tracking aim at all, you can rape face with autos.

Thu May 31, 2012 10:50 am

Forum rules

Raising the Skill Floor of Automatics [Suggestion]