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Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street
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Ixiterra Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:09 am Posts: 336	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street DemoEvolved wrote: I think your specific examples were catastrophically bad. Tech turrets blocking unassisted cappers is probably the worst argument you could make for getting a dev response. The point I was making is that a technician can do way more for a team than a soldier can. It's just about class balance. Technicians have access to the same variety of powerful weapons while also having turrets. Technicians should have comparatively weak weapons or weapons that are only useful indoors. And I actually think turrets need a bit of a health buff. Quote: Also, the request to define tight roles for every class might be a short view. I think its very likely every class will recieve equipment options to diversify their roles over time, its just too big to define which exceptions to this goal right now. Very likely there will be a means for Sentinels to attempt to cap in lieu of base d and shutting down flag runners post grab. I didn't say tight roles, I said clear goals. "Technician: flag/gen defender, weak outdoors, strong indoors, (strong) turrets, weak energy pool." That way when releasing new content packs, the new stuff can stay around this same balance so that balance is not thrown out of whack. Diversification is fine, but it should come at a cost. Want a thumper for better outdoor area denial? Ok, but it's actually going to be weaker than the soldier's. The class updates so far have been really, really random and not balanced at all (INF updates were actually pretty great in theory, but were hardly balanced). And I think that is because there is a lack of focus on what a class is supposed to represent. Quote: It would be nice to get more dev posts and guidance, but the forums are really brutal in the extreme vs any dev post with solid statements, its not worth an extended fight when they can just make actual game content instead. In the end you're probably right. Most of the game's major problems are only really noticed by Tribes veterans and they are probably a small minority of the pubbing (and cash cow) population. Why waste time on making the base game better when you can release new content and make money from that. Comp can fix some of the problems by banning and restricting stuff.
Thu May 03, 2012 12:11 pm

starlinvf Beta Tester Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:31 am Posts: 1478	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street LordOpeth wrote: While I agree with your points and what you said but staging a protest over a game that is freee to play seems rather absurd. It being labeled as an F2P is no excuse given many aspects of the game's development. Its based on a old franchise thats long past its conceptual infancy, they had mountains of source materials to refer to, they had a venerable and largely intelligent fan base from the onset, and multiple "logical" solutions being churned out by the tester forums as far back as alpha. Hirez's development approach is not one that follows conventional logic. And is leaving the players utterly confused as to how they came to that conclusion, nor does it address the root of the problem we are complaining about. Thats why many "design fixes" are openly referred to band aids, since they only address one very specific situation, and usually doesn't solve the issue (just look at the Rage perk). Theres also things that are getting past QA, and into the live builds, that can only be inferred as them trying to manipulate players in the name of profit (Plasma gun being only the latest in a growing trend). F2P or not, overall quality of this game should be higher then it is now. The mechanics are inconsistent or utterly flawed, the class and loadout system fails on its basic premise, their response to feedback is either intentionally vague or takes it in the complete opposite direction of what the community was thinking (not just suggestions, but also issue resolution), and getting them to recognize an obvious problem involves it hitting the live servers and watching for player reactions. No matter how you slice is, this paints of an image of gross negligence or major incompetence in their design team. LordOpeth wrote: The game appears to be still evolving. I disagree that it should have been put into a released state but if the goal is to bring people to the game the so be it. It appears that the the majority of players of T:A do not contribute to these forums so I can see why that a lot of the design choices are not being made, but only to the "Vets" that have the issues.. Just because people don't post in the forum doesn't mean they can't recognize a potential problem. The quiet ones are the players you should worry about losing, since new accounts joining the forums just to complain about several aspects of the game is the first sign of an upcoming exodus. What little bonds tie them to this game are weakening, and eventually lead to a single event (internal or external) to start hemorrhaging players. The vets are also very vocal because they don't want another repeat of Tribes Vengeance, where the game is abandoned before its even completed. Patience was pretty thin to begin with, but HR has been continually trying the faith of the Vets in their ability to actually make a great game. We know they have the ability to do so, but for reasons unknown they constantly fall short or make some kind of "off the wall" decision that sets the game back, keeping it from reaching its obvious potential. LordOpeth wrote: I still enjoy playing the game. Its the closest f*** thing I got to a modern day tribes and I wholely support it. I hope it becomes successful that we may see modding and other Tribes sequels with the hopes that one day we get that Tribes game us "vets" want. As much as I love the style of a Tribes game, the novelty can't hide a lot of problems inherent in T:A's physics. I can force myself to ignore a number of things, but its just there... all. the. time. LordOpeth wrote: Granted I am still bothered by some of the choices that has made it to the build of today I still support HR and will delightfully give them my money when the game becomes more complete. I'm about ready to wash my hands of HiRez as a studio unless they somehow pull a Christmas Carol personality change and end up making a worth-while Tribes title. I've lived through this once with Global Agenda (a game that could had been great had they changed the Scope of AvA), but this time they are dragging down one of my all time favorite franchises.... something difficult to forgive in itself, but 2 games in a row? _________________ "Even if it is just a gimmick, you can bet it'll be a crowd pleaser to see a player's feet kick up in the air and initiate a top down attack."
Thu May 03, 2012 4:30 pm

LordOpeth Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:01 pm Posts: 650	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street Awesome I was quoted twice in a thread.. @starlinvf - I agree with you too man.. I just dont care as much as you do. I just wish they would acknowledge, document whats changing or not changing so we can move on and talk about the game fixes rather the same thing over and over. This was the basis of my comment. Im having fun with T:A right now and I hope they fix it to the likes of what people have said or stay with their own vision of it. I dont care either way at this point, lets just move on and talk about the lack of defense in game LOL. _________________ T1 - MrBungle T2 - (ZOC) MrBungle Why does allot here expcept dieng in big KABOOM glory but dont give honnor to the silent laser thro your head in air HS your dead ? -uFr49
Thu May 03, 2012 6:06 pm

Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street was going over this in TS with my ream last night supposedly there are 15 people on the tribes project, according to todd so we take out stew, KP, Kate, Benjie, Sean, (the other art guy who's name i can't remember), Bart, and Todd you've got 8 people left. a few of those are probably artists, so we're looking at maybe 5-6 programmers? i know of joe, mick and everett for sure. wouldn't be unheard of if there was a few more behind the scenes... or they could be in support. point is... there aren't a lot of bodies left if any to communicate with us most people are busy writing code. or they're stuck in meetings. probably meetings _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Thu May 03, 2012 6:24 pm

IronKane Beta Tester Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 497	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street I would like to see some responses from Hi-Rez. Even if it only was an acknowledgment that they had read the thread and are "taking it under advisement" and not commit to anything. Another thing I would like to see is them creating polls (this forum supports that) on some issues or ideas. That would go a long way towards giving us the feeling that they are in fact considering our input. Right now, it seems like this place is for nothing better than venting. btw OP, some of those examples are horrible.
Thu May 03, 2012 6:26 pm

NiXXeD Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:02 am Posts: 657	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street +1 to feedback being two-way. I really like to hear from the devs. Regarding the other issues: -Screen crack/etc. I agree entirely. It only provides bonus to the side that's already winning. Though honestly either I've gotten used to it, or it's reduced in levels, but I haven't noticed this a lot lately. -72kph barrier - this annoys me a lot. The jets/physics feel a lot different (in a bad way) vs old tribes to me. I don't like that air control is jet-less. I don't like that disc jumps are less effective. Overall, it seems like some of the same feel is there, but there are some big hurdles still to go.
Thu May 03, 2012 6:40 pm

Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street By the way guys, the only time Hi-Rez has actually done something that seemed even remotely to do with what the community has complained about was the Plasma hitbox. Before that, they've been ignoring us since roughly two months before beta ended. I guarantee you that if I (we) didn't bring up the huge plasma hitbox, their 'fix' would've just been a damage or rate of fire tweak. Even DICE manages to listen to their community better than Hi-Rez... most of the BF3 patches have been 90% player feedback driven.
Thu May 03, 2012 7:32 pm

Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street Frostiken wrote: By the way guys, the only time Hi-Rez has actually done something that seemed even remotely to do with what the community has complained about was the Plasma hitbox. Before that, they've been ignoring us since roughly two months before beta ended. I guarantee you that if I (we) didn't bring up the huge plasma hitbox, their 'fix' would've just been a damage or rate of fire tweak. Even DICE manages to listen to their community better than Hi-Rez... most of the BF3 patches have been 90% player feedback driven. so that whole jackal flareup was... what then? _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Thu May 03, 2012 7:56 pm

Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street Wobberjockey wrote: Frostiken wrote: By the way guys, the only time Hi-Rez has actually done something that seemed even remotely to do with what the community has complained about was the Plasma hitbox. Before that, they've been ignoring us since roughly two months before beta ended. I guarantee you that if I (we) didn't bring up the huge plasma hitbox, their 'fix' would've just been a damage or rate of fire tweak. Even DICE manages to listen to their community better than Hi-Rez... most of the BF3 patches have been 90% player feedback driven. so that whole jackal flareup was... what then? Because they totally fixed it.
Thu May 03, 2012 8:04 pm

Wobberjockey Beta Tester Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am Posts: 8726 Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere	Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street Frostiken wrote: Wobberjockey wrote: Frostiken wrote: By the way guys, the only time Hi-Rez has actually done something that seemed even remotely to do with what the community has complained about was the Plasma hitbox. Before that, they've been ignoring us since roughly two months before beta ended. I guarantee you that if I (we) didn't bring up the huge plasma hitbox, their 'fix' would've just been a damage or rate of fire tweak. Even DICE manages to listen to their community better than Hi-Rez... most of the BF3 patches have been 90% player feedback driven. so that whole jackal flareup was... what then? Because they totally fixed it. 90% of the 'fixes' suggested by the community would nerf the weapon so much as to be objectively useless. literally weakening it to the point where it would be in an inferior weapon in every situation to every other option. _________________ original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read
Fri May 04, 2012 12:27 am

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Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

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Ixiterra

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:09 am
Posts: 336

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

DemoEvolved wrote:

I think your specific examples were catastrophically bad. Tech turrets blocking unassisted cappers is probably the worst argument you could make for getting a dev response.

The point I was making is that a technician can do way more for a team than a soldier can. It's just about class balance. Technicians have access to the same variety of powerful weapons while also having turrets. Technicians should have comparatively weak weapons or weapons that are only useful indoors. And I actually think turrets need a bit of a health buff.

Quote:

Also, the request to define tight roles for every class might be a short view. I think its very likely every class will recieve equipment options to diversify their roles over time, its just too big to define which exceptions to this goal right now. Very likely there will be a means for Sentinels to attempt to cap in lieu of base d and shutting down flag runners post grab.

I didn't say tight roles, I said clear goals. "Technician: flag/gen defender, weak outdoors, strong indoors, (strong) turrets, weak energy pool." That way when releasing new content packs, the new stuff can stay around this same balance so that balance is not thrown out of whack. Diversification is fine, but it should come at a cost. Want a thumper for better outdoor area denial? Ok, but it's actually going to be weaker than the soldier's. The class updates so far have been really, really random and not balanced at all (INF updates were actually pretty great in theory, but were hardly balanced). And I think that is because there is a lack of focus on what a class is supposed to represent.

Quote:

It would be nice to get more dev posts and guidance, but the forums are really brutal in the extreme vs any dev post with solid statements, its not worth an extended fight when they can just make actual game content instead.

In the end you're probably right. Most of the game's major problems are only really noticed by Tribes veterans and they are probably a small minority of the pubbing (and cash cow) population. Why waste time on making the base game better when you can release new content and make money from that. Comp can fix some of the problems by banning and restricting stuff.

Thu May 03, 2012 12:11 pm

starlinvf

Beta Tester

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:31 am
Posts: 1478

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

LordOpeth wrote:

While I agree with your points and what you said but staging a protest over a game that is freee to play seems rather absurd.

It being labeled as an F2P is no excuse given many aspects of the game's development. Its based on a old franchise thats long past its conceptual infancy, they had mountains of source materials to refer to, they had a venerable and largely intelligent fan base from the onset, and multiple "logical" solutions being churned out by the tester forums as far back as alpha.

Hirez's development approach is not one that follows conventional logic. And is leaving the players utterly confused as to how they came to that conclusion, nor does it address the root of the problem we are complaining about. Thats why many "design fixes" are openly referred to band aids, since they only address one very specific situation, and usually doesn't solve the issue (just look at the Rage perk).

Theres also things that are getting past QA, and into the live builds, that can only be inferred as them trying to manipulate players in the name of profit (Plasma gun being only the latest in a growing trend).

F2P or not, overall quality of this game should be higher then it is now. The mechanics are inconsistent or utterly flawed, the class and loadout system fails on its basic premise, their response to feedback is either intentionally vague or takes it in the complete opposite direction of what the community was thinking (not just suggestions, but also issue resolution), and getting them to recognize an obvious problem involves it hitting the live servers and watching for player reactions. No matter how you slice is, this paints of an image of gross negligence or major incompetence in their design team.

LordOpeth wrote:

The game appears to be still evolving. I disagree that it should have been put into a released state but if the goal is to bring people to the game the so be it. It appears that the the majority of players of T:A do not contribute to these forums so I can see why that a lot of the design choices are not being made, but only to the "Vets" that have the issues..

Just because people don't post in the forum doesn't mean they can't recognize a potential problem. The quiet ones are the players you should worry about losing, since new accounts joining the forums just to complain about several aspects of the game is the first sign of an upcoming exodus. What little bonds tie them to this game are weakening, and eventually lead to a single event (internal or external) to start hemorrhaging players.

The vets are also very vocal because they don't want another repeat of Tribes Vengeance, where the game is abandoned before its even completed. Patience was pretty thin to begin with, but HR has been continually trying the faith of the Vets in their ability to actually make a great game. We know they have the ability to do so, but for reasons unknown they constantly fall short or make some kind of "off the wall" decision that sets the game back, keeping it from reaching its obvious potential.

LordOpeth wrote:

I still enjoy playing the game. Its the closest f*** thing I got to a modern day tribes and I wholely support it. I hope it becomes successful that we may see modding and other Tribes sequels with the hopes that one day we get that Tribes game us "vets" want.

As much as I love the style of a Tribes game, the novelty can't hide a lot of problems inherent in T:A's physics. I can force myself to ignore a number of things, but its just there... all. the. time.

LordOpeth wrote:

Granted I am still bothered by some of the choices that has made it to the build of today I still support HR and will delightfully give them my money when the game becomes more complete.

I'm about ready to wash my hands of HiRez as a studio unless they somehow pull a Christmas Carol personality change and end up making a worth-while Tribes title. I've lived through this once with Global Agenda (a game that could had been great had they changed the Scope of AvA), but this time they are dragging down one of my all time favorite franchises.... something difficult to forgive in itself, but 2 games in a row?

_________________
"Even if it is just a gimmick, you can bet it'll be a crowd pleaser to see a player's feet kick up in the air and initiate a top down attack."

Thu May 03, 2012 4:30 pm

LordOpeth

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:01 pm
Posts: 650

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

Awesome I was quoted twice in a thread.. 8-)

@starlinvf - I agree with you too man.. I just dont care as much as you do. :twisted:

I just wish they would acknowledge, document whats changing or not changing so we can move on and talk about the game fixes rather the same thing over and over. This was the basis of my comment.

Im having fun with T:A right now and I hope they fix it to the likes of what people have said or stay with their own vision of it. I dont care either way at this point, lets just move on and talk about the lack of defense in game LOL.

_________________
T1 - MrBungle
T2 - (ZOC) MrBungle

Why does allot here expcept dieng in big KABOOM glory but dont give honnor to the silent laser thro your head in air HS your dead ? -uFr49

Thu May 03, 2012 6:06 pm

Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

was going over this in TS with my ream last night

supposedly there are 15 people on the tribes project, according to todd

so we take out stew, KP, Kate, Benjie, Sean, (the other art guy who's name i can't remember), Bart, and Todd you've got 8 people left. a few of those are probably artists, so we're looking at maybe 5-6 programmers?

i know of joe, mick and everett for sure. wouldn't be unheard of if there was a few more behind the scenes... or they could be in support.

point is... there aren't a lot of bodies left if any to communicate with us

most people are busy writing code.

or they're stuck in meetings.

probably meetings

_________________

original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Thu May 03, 2012 6:24 pm

IronKane

Beta Tester

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 497

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

I would like to see some responses from Hi-Rez. Even if it only was an acknowledgment that they had read the thread and are "taking it under advisement" and not commit to anything.

Another thing I would like to see is them creating polls (this forum supports that) on some issues or ideas. That would go a long way towards giving us the feeling that they are in fact considering our input. Right now, it seems like this place is for nothing better than venting.

btw OP, some of those examples are horrible.

Thu May 03, 2012 6:26 pm

NiXXeD

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:02 am
Posts: 657

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

+1 to feedback being two-way. I really like to hear from the devs.

Regarding the other issues:
-Screen crack/etc. I agree entirely. It only provides bonus to the side that's already winning. Though honestly either I've gotten used to it, or it's reduced in levels, but I haven't noticed this a lot lately.
-72kph barrier - this annoys me a lot. The jets/physics feel a lot different (in a bad way) vs old tribes to me. I don't like that air control is jet-less. I don't like that disc jumps are less effective. Overall, it seems like some of the same feel is there, but there are some big hurdles still to go.

Thu May 03, 2012 6:40 pm

Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

By the way guys, the only time Hi-Rez has actually done something that seemed even remotely to do with what the community has complained about was the Plasma hitbox. Before that, they've been ignoring us since roughly two months before beta ended.

I guarantee you that if I (we) didn't bring up the huge plasma hitbox, their 'fix' would've just been a damage or rate of fire tweak.

Even DICE manages to listen to their community better than Hi-Rez... most of the BF3 patches have been 90% player feedback driven.

Thu May 03, 2012 7:32 pm

Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

Frostiken wrote:

so that whole jackal flareup was... what then?

_________________

original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Thu May 03, 2012 7:56 pm

Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

Wobberjockey wrote:

Frostiken wrote:

so that whole jackal flareup was... what then?

Because they totally fixed it.

Thu May 03, 2012 8:04 pm

Wobberjockey

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:30 am
Posts: 8726
Location: In a handbasket, heading somewhere

Re: Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street

Frostiken wrote:

Wobberjockey wrote:

Frostiken wrote:

so that whole jackal flareup was... what then?

Because they totally fixed it.

90% of the 'fixes' suggested by the community would nerf the weapon so much as to be objectively useless. literally weakening it to the point where it would be in an inferior weapon in every situation to every other option.

_________________

original art at http://tinyurl.com/shazbotsig
The Tribes READ ME. Quite possibly the most important thread you'll never read

Fri May 04, 2012 12:27 am

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Constructive & Formal Protest: Feedback is a two-way street