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Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?
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alastorchaos Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:00 am Posts: 42	Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much? Keeping it short. Pathfinder is a class that has zero realistic flaws. It needs some. Weapons are a good place to start. (If skill requirement is a flaw, then SEN has "similar" flaws. That's for another topic.) This is a particular call-out to the "upgrades". Nitrons are Nitrons, but the other two...(Weapons TL;DR - There's a line between defending himself and being a rape-train. PTH eats anything...why the hell is this?) Weapons: Bolt Launcher is a 100% direct upgrade from the Light Spinfusor. Note, that if you see a Pathfinder without it, he's in the minority. Every. Single. Pathfinder. Has. It. For the most part. If a weapon's this crazy-bonkers overused in ALL GAME TYPES, it needs some nerfing so it'd be a sidegrade. Particularly for the "FLAG CAPPER CLASS" that isn't a combat specialist in default means. LAR - Bigger upgrade than the Bolt Launcher could ever be. Since (with the lone exception being the sawed-off.) shotguns in this game are outright useless due to the FAST of the game, this weapon kinda gives something with speed, an accurate means to obliterate any enemy that isn't a doombringer or some kind of jug. Nitrons - Meant for the "shove" of things. An impact nitron shouldn't be able to destroy or damage deployables. (It's stupid when a Pathfinder throws a nitron just because he can and it purges mines and motion detectors.) It should only work on players, and the flag. Explosive Nitrons however, should be alright for damaging deployables and players alike in a heavier fashion, even though it's a [size=50]deathmatcher scumbag's choice.[/size] Any thoughts? Honestly, this may fall under "AUTOMATICS SUCK, BAWW QQ" too, but the Bolt Launcher's the primary thing. Not -everyone- has the LAR. There's at least 10 PTH's to 1 who have a Bolt Launcher VS the LAR. At least for all non-DMB classes, "If a class is seen using nothing but <x> and <x> isn't default, there's clearly a reason it's too good, and it needs to be equalized." Nerf doombringer mines? Wouldn't harm me none. Just..it kinda should have those as default, since grenades suck at flag defense minus NITRONS. _________________ Players going out of their way to camp me regardless of role. Can't take this game too seriously! The above combined with teamstacking... Last edited by alastorchaos on Thu May 10, 2012 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed May 09, 2012 10:31 pm

Donut Beta Tester Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:50 am Posts: 451	Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much? [VGN] _________________ SmoothP: LEAD TO THE RETICLE. AIM WHERE YOUR TARGET IS GOING TO BE. 100% SIMPLICITY.
Wed May 09, 2012 10:42 pm

iburnbud Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:56 pm Posts: 688	Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much? giving a use to explosive nitrons sounds interesting. admittedly i dont have them, and may have missed why they would ever be chosen over impacts. _________________ give us maps. we be gone soon.
Wed May 09, 2012 10:45 pm

Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much? All the Pathfinder fanboys are going to flood this thread and moan about how balanced they are. Given that from what I've seen like 40-50% of the playerbase mains Pathfinder, don't be surprised at pure selfish feedback. Fact is, the Pathfinder is incredibly overpowered. The Pathfinder should be likened to the Scout of TF2 - an incredibly hard to play class that has (well, last time I played), some 'acceptable' weapons that really don't have much stopping power but are utility based. A shotgun that let's him airboost, a bat that stuns defenders, an upgrade that lets him pour on the speed. But it's hard to play Scout effectively as he dies from one hit from just about anything. And, obviously, they don't go 300 kph. The problem is that it's hard to make a class capable of high-speed grabs and a second, separate 'chaser' design that doesn't infringe. A chaser needs to have effective weaponry to get back the flag, and he needs to be able to go fast enough to catch up to it. The problem is if you design a class like that, all the Nubfinders simply use that class as the 'capper'. The first thing that needs to happen is flag grabbing needs to be made harder. Remove reach, make map flagstands more defensible, give the flag a huge amount of drag, and implement air resistance / constant drag on all players skiing over a certain threshold, making it harder to get up to speed and harder to maintain the speed. I also wholeheartedly support implementing either speed limits on health regen, or 'block'-based regeneration, so a top-speed capper hitting your stand at full health is no longer ever a possibility. Ignoring the capper / chaser issue, the weapons are definitely overpowered. The Bolt Launcher is little more than a Soldier Spinfusor, and the LAR is the Soldier AR... the difference is that this is two Soldier PRIMARY weapons on a LIGHT CLASS. If you don't see the problem there, your opinion is useless because odds are you're just looking out for your own class at the expense of the quality of gameplay. Frankly, I'd turn the Bolt Launcher into... I don't know... the Shockbolt - fires a whopping 'huge' projectile pre-nerf plasma-sized, but only works on an impact (no splash). However, hitting an enemy with the shockbolt does moderate damage and drains speed from them. I can't see this having much utility at all except in the hands of a chaser. By the way, let me also point out that the Light Spinfusor is a straight 100% upgrade from the Thumper DX. The Bolt Launcher also has a larger splash radius than the Standard Spinfusor. This crap isn't even balanced on paper. Last edited by Frostiken on Wed May 09, 2012 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed May 09, 2012 11:12 pm

PROJIE Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:16 am Posts: 294	Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much? Frostiken wrote: All the Pathfinder fanboys are going to flood this thread and moan about how balanced they are. Given that from what I've seen like 40-50% of the playerbase mains Pathfinder, don't be surprised at pure selfish feedback. Fact is, the Pathfinder is incredibly overpowered. The Pathfinder should be likened to the Scout of TF2 - an incredibly hard to play class that has (well, last time I played), some 'acceptable' weapons that really don't have much stopping power but are utility based. A shotgun that let's him airboost, a bat that stuns defenders, an upgrade that lets him pour on the speed. But it's hard to play Scout effectively as he dies from one hit from just about anything. And, obviously, they don't go 300 kph. The problem is that it's hard to make a class capable of high-speed grabs and a second, separate 'chaser' design that doesn't infringe. A chaser needs to have effective weaponry to get back the flag, and he needs to be able to go fast enough to catch up to it. The problem is if you design a class like that, all the Nubfinders simply use that class as the 'capper'. The first thing that needs to happen is flag grabbing needs to be made harder. Remove reach, make map flagstands more defensible, give the flag a huge amount of drag, and implement air resistance / constant drag on all players skiing over a certain threshold, making it harder to get up to speed and harder to maintain the speed. I also wholeheartedly support implementing either speed limits on health regen, or 'block'-based regeneration, so a top-speed capper hitting your stand at full health is no longer ever a possibility. Ignoring the capper / chaser issue, the weapons are definitely overpowered. The Bolt Launcher is little more than a Soldier Spinfusor, and the LAR is the Soldier AR... the difference is that this is two Soldier PRIMARY weapons on a LIGHT CLASS. If you don't see the problem there, your opinion is useless because odds are you're just looking out for your own class at the expense of the quality of gameplay. raider, soldier, infiltrator, juggernaut, dmb, tech are all better at dueling soldier/dmb/jug are better at stand d jugs, infs, and raiders are better at clearing you do realize how bad the scout analogy is right? scout deals out insane damage if you can hit at high accuracy (which is around 80% vs. heavier classes and 50-55% against other scouts). glass cannon, much like the pf _________________ Stack 'n' Hack - #1 t2 7 man team 311 - #2 base++, #2 classic team icon - #1 classic team exiled arena - #1 arena voted best player all time - t2 competitive community current best t:a player watch me annihilate newbs - www.twitch.tv/projectileomg
Wed May 09, 2012 11:17 pm

Rithas Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:34 pm Posts: 733 Steam Gamer Name: AngryMarine	Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much? Please don't make anymore analogies frostiken, you're bad at them. The only thing pathfinder has going for it is it's speed and that's it. Won't win any duel against any class that's able to soak up damage assuming the person is on the same skill level. _________________
Thu May 10, 2012 2:08 am

Jennaissance Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:13 pm Posts: 307	Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much? Frostiken wrote: The Pathfinder should be likened to the Scout of TF2 - an incredibly hard to play class that has (well, last time I played), some 'acceptable' weapons that really don't have much stopping power but are utility based. Ahahahaha. Hahaha.
Thu May 10, 2012 3:00 am

FluffyMeowington Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 408 Location: yes	Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much? What Jennaissance said; Scout is really OP as well, but the low health balances it out. Kinda like the PTH. _________________ Rainbow-dye for T:A!
Thu May 10, 2012 3:07 am

Renthrak Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:05 pm Posts: 180	Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much? I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, Pathfinders are quite fragile. It doesn't take much to kill them, and most explosive weapons can 1-shot them with a near-direct hit. Their speed is their biggest and primary advantage. As for the bolt launcher, I've tried it out in target practice, and it doesn't feel any more powerful than other explosive weapons. On the other hand, fighting against Pathfinders is vastly different than the above information would suggest. I often play defense in CTF, and of all the classes in the game, Pathfinders are one of the most unpleasant to encounter. The only class that approaches the lethality of meeting a Pathfinder would be a Plasma Gun Raider, and I win against the Raider more often. The issue is speed. Pathfinders are designed to be able to stay airborne longer than any other class, and are the most maneuverable. This makes perfect sense for their intended role as flag grabbers / chasers. It also makes them one of the best suited to the combat style unique to Tribes games. Most weapons in Tribes are explosive. Disks, grenades, etc. Explosive weapons are extremely difficult to use effectively against any airborne opponent, even more so against a fast and maneuverable one. The best chance for getting a kill with an explosive weapon is to fire at the enemy when they run out of energy and have to land for a second or two, because you can target the ground near the enemy and hurt them with the splash damage. Since the Pathfinder can spend more time in the air, and maneuver more rapidly than any other class, this means that the Pathfinder will have more opportunities to shoot at their opponent on the ground. Consequently, in the hands of a Pathfinder, an explosive weapon equally as powerful as most others will be able to inflict more damage in the same amount of time. The bolt launcher also has a faster refire rate than most explosive weapons with the exception of the Plasma Gun. In practice, a decent Pathfinder can land three shots for every two that their opponent can manage. This is a problem because three hits from the bolt launcher will kill almost any other class, and four will kill anyone without a shield pack and full energy. Against the classes most often defending the flag, Technician, Doombringer, and Juggernaut, the Pathfinder has a huge advantage in any scenario other than taking the flag. The best evidence of this is Arena mode. The most difficult team to fight is one composed entirely of bolt launcher Pathfinders, in my experience. In a game where three weapon hits can kill almost anyone, being faster on attack and evasion is more effective than any hit point upgrades. The result is that of all the classes in the game, a bolt launcher Pathfinder ranks with Raiders and Juggernauts as the MOST effective at removing base defenses and killing opposing players one-on-one. For the tl:dr crowd, a summary. Pathfinders kick butt on offense because they can stay in the air and rain bolts down at anybody else, and dodge anything fired at them better than anyone else. I agree with the OP that altering the bolt launcher to be a force-based rather than damage-based weapon would solve most of the problem, and make them at LEAST as effective for chasing as they already are.
Thu May 10, 2012 3:37 am

raqyee Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:52 am Posts: 1914	Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much? alastorchaos wrote: Weapons: Bolt Launcher is a 100% direct upgrade from the Light Spinfusor. Note, that if you see a Pathfinder without it, he's in the major minority. Every. Single. Pathfinder. Has. It. Stopped reading. _________________ Feel free to add me on steam \| Member of conclave.cc
Thu May 10, 2012 3:58 am

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Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

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alastorchaos

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:00 am
Posts: 42

Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

Keeping it short.

Pathfinder is a class that has zero realistic flaws. It needs some. Weapons are a good place to start. (If skill requirement is a flaw, then SEN has "similar" flaws. That's for another topic.)

This is a particular call-out to the "upgrades". Nitrons are Nitrons, but the other two...(Weapons TL;DR - There's a line between defending himself and being a rape-train. PTH eats anything...why the hell is this?)

Weapons: Bolt Launcher is a 100% direct upgrade from the Light Spinfusor. Note, that if you see a Pathfinder without it, he's in the minority. Every. Single. Pathfinder. Has. It. For the most part.

If a weapon's this crazy-bonkers overused in ALL GAME TYPES, it needs some nerfing so it'd be a sidegrade. Particularly for the "FLAG CAPPER CLASS" that isn't a combat specialist in default means.

LAR - Bigger upgrade than the Bolt Launcher could ever be. Since (with the lone exception being the sawed-off.) shotguns in this game are outright useless due to the FAST of the game, this weapon kinda gives something with speed, an accurate means to obliterate any enemy that isn't a doombringer or some kind of jug.

Nitrons - Meant for the "shove" of things. An impact nitron shouldn't be able to destroy or damage deployables. (It's stupid when a Pathfinder throws a nitron just because he can and it purges mines and motion detectors.) It should only work on players, and the flag. Explosive Nitrons however, should be alright for damaging deployables and players alike in a heavier fashion, even though it's a [size=50]deathmatcher scumbag's choice.[/size]

Any thoughts? Honestly, this may fall under "AUTOMATICS SUCK, BAWW QQ" too, but the Bolt Launcher's the primary thing. Not -everyone- has the LAR. There's at least 10 PTH's to 1 who have a Bolt Launcher VS the LAR.

At least for all non-DMB classes, "If a class is seen using nothing but <x> and <x> isn't default, there's clearly a reason it's too good, and it needs to be equalized."

Nerf doombringer mines? Wouldn't harm me none. Just..it kinda should have those as default, since grenades suck at flag defense minus NITRONS.

_________________
Players going out of their way to camp me regardless of role.
Can't take this game too seriously! The above combined with teamstacking...

Last edited by alastorchaos on Thu May 10, 2012 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed May 09, 2012 10:31 pm

Donut

Beta Tester

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:50 am
Posts: 451

Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

[VGN]

_________________
SmoothP:

LEAD TO THE RETICLE. AIM WHERE YOUR TARGET IS GOING TO BE. 100% SIMPLICITY.

Wed May 09, 2012 10:42 pm

iburnbud

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:56 pm
Posts: 688

Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

giving a use to explosive nitrons sounds interesting. admittedly i dont have them, and may have missed why they would ever be chosen over impacts.

_________________
give us maps. we be gone soon.

Wed May 09, 2012 10:45 pm

Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

All the Pathfinder fanboys are going to flood this thread and moan about how balanced they are. Given that from what I've seen like 40-50% of the playerbase mains Pathfinder, don't be surprised at pure selfish feedback.

Fact is, the Pathfinder is incredibly overpowered. The Pathfinder should be likened to the Scout of TF2 - an incredibly hard to play class that has (well, last time I played), some 'acceptable' weapons that really don't have much stopping power but are utility based. A shotgun that let's him airboost, a bat that stuns defenders, an upgrade that lets him pour on the speed. But it's hard to play Scout effectively as he dies from one hit from just about anything. And, obviously, they don't go 300 kph.

The problem is that it's hard to make a class capable of high-speed grabs and a second, separate 'chaser' design that doesn't infringe. A chaser needs to have effective weaponry to get back the flag, and he needs to be able to go fast enough to catch up to it. The problem is if you design a class like that, all the Nubfinders simply use *that* class as the 'capper'.

The first thing that needs to happen is flag grabbing needs to be made harder. Remove reach, make map flagstands more defensible, give the flag a huge amount of drag, and implement air resistance / constant drag on all players skiing over a certain threshold, making it harder to get up to speed and harder to maintain the speed. I also wholeheartedly support implementing either speed limits on health regen, or 'block'-based regeneration, so a top-speed capper hitting your stand at full health is no longer ever a possibility.

Ignoring the capper / chaser issue, the weapons are definitely overpowered. The Bolt Launcher is little more than a Soldier Spinfusor, and the LAR is the Soldier AR... the difference is that this is two Soldier PRIMARY weapons on a LIGHT CLASS. If you don't see the problem there, your opinion is useless because odds are you're just looking out for your own class at the expense of the quality of gameplay.

Frankly, I'd turn the Bolt Launcher into... I don't know... the Shockbolt - fires a whopping 'huge' projectile pre-nerf plasma-sized, but only works on an impact (no splash). However, hitting an enemy with the shockbolt does moderate damage and drains speed from them. I can't see this having much utility at all except in the hands of a chaser.

By the way, let me also point out that the Light Spinfusor is a straight 100% upgrade from the Thumper DX. The Bolt Launcher also has a larger splash radius than the Standard Spinfusor. This crap isn't even balanced on paper.

Last edited by Frostiken on Wed May 09, 2012 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed May 09, 2012 11:12 pm

PROJIE

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:16 am
Posts: 294

Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

Frostiken wrote:

raider, soldier, infiltrator, juggernaut, dmb, tech are all better at dueling
soldier/dmb/jug are better at stand d
jugs, infs, and raiders are better at clearing

you do realize how bad the scout analogy is right? scout deals out insane damage if you can hit at high accuracy (which is around 80% vs. heavier classes and 50-55% against other scouts). glass cannon, much like the pf

_________________
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team 311 - #2 base++, #2 classic
team icon - #1 classic
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current best t:a player
watch me annihilate newbs - www.twitch.tv/projectileomg

Wed May 09, 2012 11:17 pm

Rithas

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:34 pm
Posts: 733
Steam Gamer Name: AngryMarine

Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

Please don't make anymore analogies frostiken, you're bad at them.

The only thing pathfinder has going for it is it's speed and that's it. Won't win any duel against any class that's able to soak up damage assuming the person is on the same skill level.

_________________

Thu May 10, 2012 2:08 am

Jennaissance

Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:13 pm
Posts: 307

Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

Frostiken wrote:

The Pathfinder should be likened to the Scout of TF2 - an incredibly hard to play class that has (well, last time I played), some 'acceptable' weapons that really don't have much stopping power but are utility based.

Ahahahaha. Hahaha.

Thu May 10, 2012 3:00 am

FluffyMeowington

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 408
Location: yes

Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

What Jennaissance said; Scout is really OP as well, but the low health balances it out. Kinda like the PTH.

_________________

Rainbow-dye for T:A!

Thu May 10, 2012 3:07 am

Renthrak

Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:05 pm
Posts: 180

Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

I can see both sides of this.

On the one hand, Pathfinders are quite fragile. It doesn't take much to kill them, and most explosive weapons can 1-shot them with a near-direct hit. Their speed is their biggest and primary advantage. As for the bolt launcher, I've tried it out in target practice, and it doesn't feel any more powerful than other explosive weapons.

On the other hand, fighting against Pathfinders is vastly different than the above information would suggest. I often play defense in CTF, and of all the classes in the game, Pathfinders are one of the most unpleasant to encounter. The only class that approaches the lethality of meeting a Pathfinder would be a Plasma Gun Raider, and I win against the Raider more often.

The issue is speed. Pathfinders are designed to be able to stay airborne longer than any other class, and are the most maneuverable. This makes perfect sense for their intended role as flag grabbers / chasers. It also makes them one of the best suited to the combat style unique to Tribes games. Most weapons in Tribes are explosive. Disks, grenades, etc. Explosive weapons are extremely difficult to use effectively against any airborne opponent, even more so against a fast and maneuverable one. The best chance for getting a kill with an explosive weapon is to fire at the enemy when they run out of energy and have to land for a second or two, because you can target the ground near the enemy and hurt them with the splash damage. Since the Pathfinder can spend more time in the air, and maneuver more rapidly than any other class, this means that the Pathfinder will have more opportunities to shoot at their opponent on the ground. Consequently, in the hands of a Pathfinder, an explosive weapon equally as powerful as most others will be able to inflict more damage in the same amount of time. The bolt launcher also has a faster refire rate than most explosive weapons with the exception of the Plasma Gun. In practice, a decent Pathfinder can land three shots for every two that their opponent can manage. This is a problem because three hits from the bolt launcher will kill almost any other class, and four will kill anyone without a shield pack and full energy. Against the classes most often defending the flag, Technician, Doombringer, and Juggernaut, the Pathfinder has a huge advantage in any scenario other than taking the flag.

The best evidence of this is Arena mode. The most difficult team to fight is one composed entirely of bolt launcher Pathfinders, in my experience. In a game where three weapon hits can kill almost anyone, being faster on attack and evasion is more effective than any hit point upgrades.

The result is that of all the classes in the game, a bolt launcher Pathfinder ranks with Raiders and Juggernauts as the MOST effective at removing base defenses and killing opposing players one-on-one.

For the tl:dr crowd, a summary. Pathfinders kick butt on offense because they can stay in the air and rain bolts down at anybody else, and dodge anything fired at them better than anyone else.

I agree with the OP that altering the bolt launcher to be a force-based rather than damage-based weapon would solve most of the problem, and make them at LEAST as effective for chasing as they already are.

Thu May 10, 2012 3:37 am

raqyee

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:52 am
Posts: 1914

Re: Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?

alastorchaos wrote:

Weapons: Bolt Launcher is a 100% direct upgrade from the Light Spinfusor. Note, that if you see a Pathfinder without it, he's in the major minority. Every. Single. Pathfinder. Has. It.

Stopped reading.

_________________

Feel free to add me on steam | Member of conclave.cc

Thu May 10, 2012 3:58 am

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Pathfinder's Loadout Perfection: Too much?