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Poll: Physics
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Styel Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm Posts: 631	Poll: Physics Poll restarted to add another option as requested. Correct All Physics Issues Now Fix Them But Not Main Priority Leave Them As Is Fix Some Of The Physics Issues Results: If you choose "Fix Some Of The Physics Issues" , explain which and why you don't want the others. Physics Issues Include: 100% Inheritance on all weapons The need of more powerful jetpacks with faster recharge speed Remove 72 km/h speed cap True thrust vectoring Non-frictionless skiing/air drag Remove Jetless Air Control Additional information to the problems with the core phyiscs: http://forum.hirezstudios.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=61489&st=0&sk=t&sd=a Inheritance Details: SmoothP wrote: The Ultimate Guide to Inheritance, Version 23: Question: What is this inheritance thing there are so many threads about, and why is it important? Answer: Inheritance is the amount of a shooter's velocity "inherited" by a projectile. In other words, it is how your velocity affects the speed and direction of your shots. Inheritance (or lack of thereof) is what causes shots to fly slower or faster than usual, or to fly sideways or backwards in different situations. Note that when we say "velocity" in this context, we mean velocity with respect to the ground. All velocity is relative, but for the purposes of the game we treat the ground as "special". In real life you don't think about inheritance, because we naturally think of our own reference frame as the important one. This is why you can toss a ball to someone while riding in a car and the ball doesn't suddenly smash through the back window at 65 mph the moment you let it go. Here is a diagram showing how traveling at high speed will cause your shots will fly off in different directions and speeds depending on the inheritance system and the angle of your shot. The black vector on the left side shows how fast you are moving past the ground, the colored vectors show the speed and angle of your shots as you shoot in different directions. The pie slice is your field of view, your reticle would be at the center of it. Question: So inheritance is how your speed affects your shots. Then at what speed is leading shots the simplest and most intuitive? Answer: When standing still. You just look at how your target is moving, and aim at the spot where he's going to be. It's so natural that it's almost ridiculous to mention. Question: Hah, well that's true. It would just be like any point and click shooting game. Is there an inheritance system that makes every shot as simple to predict as when standing still? Answer: Yes, true inheritance. Just like when standing still, you simply look at how your target is moving across your screen, and aim your reticle at the spot where he's going to be. As soon as you realize that the ground is just another moving target, everything clicks and all of the "shots fly sideways out of the gun barrel" inheritance values become utter facepalmery in a game about high speed, outdoor, aerial combat. Question: Wait, isn't 100% inheritance really HIGH? It sounds like such a big, threatening number... Answer: No. In terms of the player's perspective, it is the MIDPOINT. Inheritance values simply refer to whose frame of reference shots are consistent in. True, 100% inheritance makes things consistent for the shooter. 0% inheritance makes things consistent for the ground. 50% inheritance makes things consistent for a potential observer moving with half the ground velocity of the shooter. From the player's perspective, 50% is a mirror image of 150%: shooting "forward" with 50% is exactly the same as shooting "backward" with 150%, and vice versa. True inheritance is the midpoint that makes your perspective consistent, which is the perspective from which you experience the world. In other words, shots fly straight through the reticle with the same speed no matter how fast you're moving or what direction you're aiming. This lets you ignore all factors other than the motion of your target across your screen, and even allows for making accurate shots when looking at the sky. All you need to do is ignore the ground and lead your target exactly like you would if you were standing still. Here is a diagram showing how 50% and 150% inheritance are mirror images of each other, with true inheritance forming a natural, speed independent midpoint in the center: Question: Alright, well how do I minimize the amount of lead needed with true inheritance? Answer: By matching velocities with your target, or flying on a collision course. In other words, by doing what you would do naturally when chasing someone in game or in real life. With 50% inheritance, you'd minimize lead by moving with TWICE the velocity of your target. With 0% inheritance, you'd minimize lead by somehow making your target stand still... Neither of these systems allows YOU to use movement to gain control over your shots as effectively as true inheritance does. TRIBES is a game about freedom of movement, and true inheritance fits hand in hand with that freedom. Question: Hold on, I only take ground shots. Isn't this going to make things harder for me compared to 0%? Answer: If you only shoot at stationary targets, then yes, it will. But stationary targets don't move, so it's trivial to minimize your lead by slowing down or taking a better approach angle. And if you're shooting at moving targets, then you're already predicting movement and aiming accordingly. All you need to do is change your mindset and aim where your target will be relative to your screen instead of aiming where your target will be relative to the ground. Voila, now you can predict MAs just as easily as ground shots and start going for more "blue plates"! Now, it is true that higher levels of inheritance require more skill when randomly juking on the ground. But since you know which way you are juking, you can account for this and aim a bit to the left when juking right, and a bit to the right when juking left. There could also be dedicated close quarters weapons like the T1 / T2 Plasma Rifle, which had reduced (~30%) inheritance and shot large, slowish projectiles that were excellent for corridor battles. Question: Won't true inheritance make you OP in some situations and UP in others? Answer: No. With true inheritance, two people shooting at each other need the EXACT same amount of lead and their shots will take the EXACT same amount of time to hit each other in ANY situation. This natural symmetry is tremendously important and honestly cannot be stressed enough, especially since it's something that isn't immediately apparent. With true inheritance, if you can hit your target, your target can hit you. And again, you both need the exact same amount of lead and your shots will fly at each other at the exact same speed. Nearly all arguments about specific situations in which true inheritance seems strange disappear when thinking about this simple and elegant fact. Question: I still don't get it. Why can't my shots just go where I aimed? Answer: Because unlike with hitscan weapons, projectiles take time to reach their targets, and "where I aimed" can mean many different things. When objects are in motion, you can't just aim straight at them and hope to hit in every situation, you simply have to lead certain shots... it is inevitable. True inheritance makes it so you minimize lead by matching velocities with your target or by moving on a collision course, which is the natural thing to do when trying to hit a target. Other inheritance systems minimize lead in different ways. But only true inheritance makes your shots consistently fly straight through your reticle with the same speed no matter what. Some people argue for 0% inheritance, and feel that "where they aimed" means where they were aiming in relation to the ground. But note that you have to specify this... on it's own, saying "where I aimed" doesn't make sense, you could have been aiming at any number of things at the time you pulled the trigger. And while 0% inheritance might work in a hide and seek corridor shooter, where there are walls constraining your movement and stationary locations on the map are the most important things (eg: corners, choke points, and powerup spawns), it simply doesn't work in TRIBES, which is a game of wide open, outdoor spaces and high speed, aerial combat where chases and high speed duels are extremely important. Question: Wait a minute, isn't low inheritance sort of like an approximation of air resistance or drag? Answer: No. It isn't anything like drag. With drag, shots would start out perfectly straight and with consistent speed but slow down and curve over time. Low inheritance makes shots start out sideways and with varying speeds that can be either faster or slower than normal. Drag would not make you miss a point blank shot by 10 feet, or cause your shots to fly out the side or back of your gun. And drag would slow down shots even when standing still. Drag could be an interesting mechanic to add to the game, and adding it would be quite simple from a programming perspective. But drag is a force that acts over time, and thus affects shots in a completely different way than low inheritance. Also, weapon projectiles are designed to be as dense as possible and minimize air resistance... they wouldn't curve in the wind like a crumpled up piece of paper. Here is a diagram of a disc shot with 50% inheritance, true inheritance, and true inheritance with drag. Even though this is an extreme example, with a player moving at high speed and shooting perpendicular to his direction of motion, the shot does not curve very much and in fact slows down in the direction of aim more than it curves sideways. (The projectile variables in this diagram are for a track and field discus with 50% extra mass. A "real" disc could certainly be made heavier and more aerodynamic...) Question: Okay, I think I understand why inheritance is important, and why high inheritance is good, but 100% still freaks me out for some reason. Are you sure it isn't too high? Wouldn't something like 75%, which was on the disc in T2c, be better? Answer: Remember, true inheritance is not "high", it is the midpoint in terms of the player's perspective. 75% is simply a mirror image of 125%, with slower forward shots and faster backwards ones. The only truly logical options for inheritance are 100% and 0%, and it's quite clear that 0% does not work in TRIBES. And while T1 / T2c were amazing, they were not perfect and did not get everything right. True, 100% inheritance is the only system that frees you from needing to worry about the ground, and thus was the value on the chaingun in every incarnation of TRIBES, which nobody ever found hard or confusing to aim because of it. In fact, the chaingun was the most consistent weapon in the previous games. True inhertance has been used in tons of incredibly successful video games from Asteroids to New Super Mario Bros Wii, and in many mods for T1 / T2 / T:V. Nearly every space / plane game in existence uses true inheritance, and TRIBES combat has a lot in common with aerial dogfights, notably predictable movement in 3D space, and shooting at both airborne and ground targets. And for the final proof of the value of true inheritance, think about taking the shot in the following pic... with true, 100% inheritance, it's easy to aim: you simply lead the target in the direction that it's moving across your screen. With ANY other value, you'd have no idea which way your shot is going to go or how fast it will get there, and thus there is no way to know where to aim. With true inheritance, every shot is the same. You simply lead your target to the reticle, and aim where the target is going to be. ------------------------- A D D E N D U M ------------------------- Lead Reticle / Training Wheels: There has been much talk about a "Training Wheels" perk that adds a moving reticle that shows where your shot would hit the ground. This is what modern fighter planes and helicopters use, and would be an excellent tool for learning to lead ground shots. And as a player got more familar with leading, he would naturally need the reticle less and less as his natural aim would get better and better. At some point a player would simply become comfortable enough with aiming on his own that he'd rather take a different perk. And the beauty of true inheritance is that leading ground shots is the same as leading MAs, so the ground reticle would help a player internalize the amount of lead needed in any situation. Another possiblity that has been discussed for the ground reticle is that it could be available any time you are within your sensor network. This would increase the value of the generators and add some depth and strategy to sensor farming. Also, the targeting laser and beacons in previous TRIBES games were used to create an "aim point" that showed friendly players where to aim in order to hit the painted location. This added a level of teamwork that was quite interesting and fun, though top level players rarely needed to rely on this mechanic. Still, it was valuable for hitting arced shots from behind hills, etc, and would be an excellent addition to the game. Shot Diagrams: Here are a few shot diagrams of typical situations with various inheritance values. The dotted lines are where you would aim in each different system. Notice that the lower the inheritance, the further shots stray from where you aimed, and the more wildly varying the shot speeds. With true inheritance (in blue), the shots always go where you aimed and hit the target on the dotted line. Each animation is slowed to one half speed. Diagram One: The players are traveling in opposite directions, both at 0.75 x the speed of the projectile. This is a typical situation of opposing offensive players flying past each other. Here you have to lead a bit more with 100% inheritance, but your shot hits your target at the spot where you aimed (as usual), while with lower inheritance the shots fly way sideways and slow, creating a large angle between the aim point and the hit point. Diagram Two: The shooter and target are moving parallel to each other, with the shooter at 0.7 x and the target at 0.8 x the speed of the projectile. This is a typical chasing scenario. No explanation is necessary here, as we've all taken this shot many times. Anything less than 100% inheritance plainly makes the shot a lot harder, with massive amounts of lead even though the target is nearly stationary on your screen, and shots that come out sideways and slow, requiring predicting the target's location further out into the future. Diagram Three: The shooter is moving at 0.4 x and the target at 0.3 x the speed of the projectile, with the target moving nearly perpendicular to the shooter. This is a fairly typical medium speed dueling situation... and with any of the systems other than true inheritance, you actually have to lead the WRONG WAY. IE: the target is moving RIGHT across your screen, but you have to aim to the LEFT of the target because of the sideways shots. This is just wrong. Correcting all these physics issues will fix majority of the problems with the game. Not only will it fix the game but it will make sure that Ascend will last for years. It will also stop with the constant threads about the change of physics and the disappointed players that come along with it. ***Suggestion: Adding 100% Inheritance on automatics while nerfing them so that they aren't overpowered and are used as a secondary weapon Thanks to WitchDoctorVega for indirectly showing me this poll site _________________ Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? thesliver wrote: I say "Son, stop being so newb" Physics Poll Last edited by Styel on Thu May 03, 2012 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:33 pm

Immie Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:10 pm Posts: 1310	Re: Poll: Physics 100% Inheritance on all weapons I only see this being needed for bullet weapons/anything with very high velocity that is actually reliable for getting midair hits with More powerful jetpacks with faster recharge speed I'd like that, obviously would require a bunch of rebalancing for shield packs/any other energy draining items Remove 72 km/h speed cap Rather than completely remove it, I'd suggest making it a soft cap, where jet acceleration slowed down and stopped at around 100-150 km/h True thrust vectoring It'd be nice if pressing a directional input while jetting simply directed your thrust in that direction, while maintaining the rest of its current functionality Non-frictionless skiing/air drag Obviously would be needed with the jetpack changes above, but I can see this not being changed and not being a huge problem Remove Jetless Air Control I don't want this. After playing TA, T1/2 just feel clunky due to lack of control. I see no reason to go back other than pure nostalgia. Jetless air control simply adds depth on top of thrust vectoring, if done correctly _________________ Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes.
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:01 pm

Styel Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm Posts: 631	Re: Poll: Physics Immie wrote: 100% Inheritance on all weapons I only see this being needed for bullet weapons/anything with very high velocity that is actually reliable for getting midair hits with Which is every projectile Remove 72 km/h speed cap Rather than completely remove it, I'd suggest making it a soft cap, where jet acceleration slowed down and stopped at around 100-150 km/h It has major bugs. When falling faster than 72 km/h, jetting makes you fall faster? It also prevents chasers from gaining speed True thrust vectoring It'd be nice if pressing a directional input while jetting simply directed your thrust in that direction, while maintaining the rest of its current functionality Non-frictionless skiing/air drag Obviously would be needed with the jetpack changes above Yes Remove Jetless Air Control I don't want this. After playing TA, T1/2 just feel clunky due to lack of control. I see no reason to go back other than pure nostalgia. Jetless air control simply adds depth on top of thrust vectoring, if done correctly This causes players movements to be unpredictable. The thrust vectoring will take place of this. _________________ Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? thesliver wrote: I say "Son, stop being so newb" Physics Poll
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:26 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: Poll: Physics Leave jet-less air control alone.... if you look at the characters in third person they're got continuous thruster burn in there jet-boots which easily explains how they can change directions midair. Being unable to change your falling direction without using jetpack is important, because using jetpack slows your fall and is counterintuitive. You'd need to redesign an entirely new key that caused very minor sidewaays thrust without vertical thrust in order to achieve what's already in the game... so no, removing air control is a step backwards. The continuous jet-boot burn easily explains air control and makes it realistic. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:30 pm

Immie Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:10 pm Posts: 1310	Re: Poll: Physics Slow projectiles don't feel good with 100% inheritance. Take at look at Starsiege: Tribes, Tribes: 2, Tribes: Areal Assault, and Tribes: Vengeance, which do not use 100% on disks, grenades, plasma, etc, but do use 100% on the chaingun. Changing the 72km/h cap doesn't change the way the jetpacks work that causes downward acceleration when jetpacking. Air control is super low and people are still forced to travel in very predictable patterns compared to when on the ground. All that removing it does it make the game feel clunky. _________________ Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes. Last edited by Immie on Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:32 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: Poll: Physics Styel wrote: This causes players movements to be unpredictable. The thrust vectoring will take place of this. ... You WANT unpredictable movement. Predictable movement = limited control = game controls feel bad = reduced fun in a high speed shooter = more frustrating duels due to inability to dodge. I don't think you fully understand the ramifications of exactly what you're proposing. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:36 pm

Styel Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm Posts: 631	Re: Poll: Physics DibbzTheLoner wrote: Leave jet-less air control alone.... if you look at the characters in third person they're got continuous thruster burn in there jet-boots which easily explains how they can change directions midair. Being unable to change your falling direction without using jetpack is important, because using jetpack slows your fall and is counterintuitive. You'd need to redesign an entirely new key that caused very minor sidewaays thrust without vertical thrust in order to achieve what's already in the game... so no, removing air control is a step backwards. The continuous jet-boot burn easily explains air control and makes it realistic. So if I was floating in air, when I move my hips should I turn directions? The "Jet-boots" are used during skiing. What happens if you are the type player that doesn't hold down the skiing key when in air? Should you still be able to turn in air without using your jetpack? _________________ Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? thesliver wrote: I say "Son, stop being so newb" Physics Poll
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:38 pm

DrEuthanasia Beta Tester Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm Posts: 1101	Re: Poll: Physics So where's the option for "I want some but not all of these important changes implemented"? Inheritance concerns and jetpacking concerns are not even remotely close to the same thing. It's unreasonable to expect people to agree unanimously with both. As for you two talking about jetless air control, it's a big deal because there's no visual indication of it happening and it has a significant impact on dueling and shot prediction. You can dodge a perfectly aimed blue plate without even knowing about it or using your jets in this game, and decelerate in the middle of a duel for no real reason. It's not an objectively good feature like you make it out to be.
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:38 pm

Styel Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm Posts: 631	Re: Poll: Physics DibbzTheLoner wrote: Styel wrote: This causes players movements to be unpredictable. The thrust vectoring will take place of this. ... You WANT unpredictable movement. Predictable movement = limited control = game controls feel bad = reduced fun in a high speed shooter = more frustrating duels due to inability to dodge. I don't think you fully understand the ramifications of exactly what you're proposing. Have you played the other Tribes? If so, do you notice the lack of mid-air action in Ascend? That is because players are so unpredictable. That is why players wait until you hit the ground to shoot. You can still dodge, but it is easier to judge where to lead. _________________ Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? thesliver wrote: I say "Son, stop being so newb" Physics Poll
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:41 pm

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: Poll: Physics DrEuthanasia wrote: So where's the option for "I want some but not all of these important changes implemented"? Inheritance concerns and jetpacking concerns are not even remotely close to the same thing. It's unreasonable to expect people to agree unanimously with both. This. _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!
Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:41 pm

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Poll: Physics

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Styel

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm
Posts: 631

Poll: Physics

Poll restarted to add another option as requested.

Correct All Physics Issues Now
Fix Them But Not Main Priority
Leave Them As Is
Fix Some Of The Physics Issues

Results:

If you choose "Fix Some Of The Physics Issues" , explain which and why you don't want the others.

Physics Issues Include:

Additional information to the problems with the core phyiscs:
http://forum.hirezstudios.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=61489&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Inheritance Details:

SmoothP wrote:

The Ultimate Guide to Inheritance, Version 23:

Question: What is this inheritance thing there are so many threads about, and why is it important?

Answer: Inheritance is the amount of a shooter's velocity "inherited" by a projectile. In other words, it is how your velocity affects the speed and direction of your shots. Inheritance (or lack of thereof) is what causes shots to fly slower or faster than usual, or to fly sideways or backwards in different situations.

Note that when we say "velocity" in this context, we mean velocity with respect to the ground. All velocity is relative, but for the purposes of the game we treat the ground as "special". In real life you don't think about inheritance, because we naturally think of our own reference frame as the important one. This is why you can toss a ball to someone while riding in a car and the ball doesn't suddenly smash through the back window at 65 mph the moment you let it go.

Here is a diagram showing how traveling at high speed will cause your shots will fly off in different directions and speeds depending on the inheritance system and the angle of your shot. The black vector on the left side shows how fast you are moving past the ground, the colored vectors show the speed and angle of your shots as you shoot in different directions. The pie slice is your field of view, your reticle would be at the center of it.

Question: So inheritance is how your speed affects your shots. Then at what speed is leading shots the simplest and most intuitive?

Answer: When standing still. You just look at how your target is moving, and aim at the spot where he's going to be. It's so natural that it's almost ridiculous to mention.

Question: Hah, well that's true. It would just be like any point and click shooting game. Is there an inheritance system that makes every shot as simple to predict as when standing still?

Answer: Yes, true inheritance. Just like when standing still, you simply look at how your target is moving across your screen, and aim your reticle at the spot where he's going to be. As soon as you realize that the ground is just another moving target, everything clicks and all of the "shots fly sideways out of the gun barrel" inheritance values become utter facepalmery in a game about high speed, outdoor, aerial combat.

Question: Wait, isn't 100% inheritance really HIGH? It sounds like such a big, threatening number...

Answer: No. In terms of the player's perspective, it is the MIDPOINT. Inheritance values simply refer to whose frame of reference shots are consistent in. True, 100% inheritance makes things consistent for the shooter. 0% inheritance makes things consistent for the ground. 50% inheritance makes things consistent for a potential observer moving with half the ground velocity of the shooter. From the player's perspective, 50% is a mirror image of 150%: shooting "forward" with 50% is exactly the same as shooting "backward" with 150%, and vice versa.

True inheritance is the midpoint that makes *your perspective* consistent, which is the perspective from which you experience the world. In other words, shots fly straight through the reticle with the same speed no matter how fast you're moving or what direction you're aiming. This lets you ignore all factors other than the motion of your target across your screen, and even allows for making accurate shots when looking at the sky. All you need to do is ignore the ground and lead your target exactly like you would if you were standing still.

Here is a diagram showing how 50% and 150% inheritance are mirror images of each other, with true inheritance forming a natural, speed independent midpoint in the center:

Question: Alright, well how do I minimize the amount of lead needed with true inheritance?

Answer: By matching velocities with your target, or flying on a collision course. In other words, by doing what you would do naturally when chasing someone in game or in real life.

With 50% inheritance, you'd minimize lead by moving with TWICE the velocity of your target. With 0% inheritance, you'd minimize lead by somehow making your target stand still... Neither of these systems allows YOU to use movement to gain control over your shots as effectively as true inheritance does.

TRIBES is a game about freedom of movement, and true inheritance fits hand in hand with that freedom.

Question: Hold on, I only take ground shots. Isn't this going to make things harder for me compared to 0%?

Answer: If you only shoot at stationary targets, then yes, it will. But stationary targets don't move, so it's trivial to minimize your lead by slowing down or taking a better approach angle.

And if you're shooting at moving targets, then you're *already* predicting movement and aiming accordingly. All you need to do is change your mindset and aim where your target will be relative to your screen instead of aiming where your target will be relative to the ground. Voila, now you can predict MAs just as easily as ground shots and start going for more "blue plates"!

Now, it is true that higher levels of inheritance require more skill when randomly juking on the ground. But since you know which way you are juking, you can account for this and aim a bit to the left when juking right, and a bit to the right when juking left. There could also be dedicated close quarters weapons like the T1 / T2 Plasma Rifle, which had reduced (~30%) inheritance and shot large, slowish projectiles that were excellent for corridor battles.

Question: Won't true inheritance make you OP in some situations and UP in others?

Answer: No. With true inheritance, two people shooting at each other need the EXACT same amount of lead and their shots will take the EXACT same amount of time to hit each other in ANY situation. This natural symmetry is tremendously important and honestly cannot be stressed enough, especially since it's something that isn't immediately apparent.

With true inheritance, if you can hit your target, your target can hit you. And again, you both need the exact same amount of lead and your shots will fly at each other at the exact same speed. Nearly all arguments about specific situations in which true inheritance seems strange disappear when thinking about this simple and elegant fact.

Question: I still don't get it. Why can't my shots just go where I aimed?

Answer: Because unlike with hitscan weapons, projectiles take time to reach their targets, and "where I aimed" can mean many different things. When objects are in motion, you can't just aim straight at them and hope to hit in every situation, you simply have to lead certain shots... it is inevitable.

True inheritance makes it so you minimize lead by matching velocities with your target or by moving on a collision course, which is the natural thing to do when trying to hit a target. Other inheritance systems minimize lead in different ways. But only true inheritance makes your shots consistently fly straight through your reticle with the same speed no matter what.

Some people argue for 0% inheritance, and feel that "where they aimed" means where they were aiming in relation to the ground. But note that you have to specify this... on it's own, saying "where I aimed" doesn't make sense, you could have been aiming at any number of things at the time you pulled the trigger. And while 0% inheritance might work in a hide and seek corridor shooter, where there are walls constraining your movement and stationary locations on the map are the most important things (eg: corners, choke points, and powerup spawns), it simply doesn't work in TRIBES, which is a game of wide open, outdoor spaces and high speed, aerial combat where chases and high speed duels are extremely important.

Question: Wait a minute, isn't low inheritance sort of like an approximation of air resistance or drag?

Answer: No. It isn't anything like drag. With drag, shots would start out perfectly straight and with consistent speed but slow down and curve over time. Low inheritance makes shots start out sideways and with varying speeds that can be either faster or slower than normal. Drag would not make you miss a point blank shot by 10 feet, or cause your shots to fly out the side or back of your gun. And drag would slow down shots even when standing still.

Drag could be an interesting mechanic to add to the game, and adding it would be quite simple from a programming perspective. But drag is a force that acts over time, and thus affects shots in a completely different way than low inheritance. Also, weapon projectiles are designed to be as dense as possible and minimize air resistance... they wouldn't curve in the wind like a crumpled up piece of paper.

Here is a diagram of a disc shot with 50% inheritance, true inheritance, and true inheritance with drag. Even though this is an extreme example, with a player moving at high speed and shooting perpendicular to his direction of motion, the shot does not curve very much and in fact slows down in the direction of aim more than it curves sideways.

(The projectile variables in this diagram are for a track and field discus with 50% extra mass. A "real" disc could certainly be made heavier and more aerodynamic...)

Question: Okay, I think I understand why inheritance is important, and why high inheritance is good, but 100% still freaks me out for some reason. Are you *sure* it isn't too high? Wouldn't something like 75%, which was on the disc in T2c, be better?

Answer: Remember, true inheritance is not "high", it is the midpoint in terms of the player's perspective. 75% is simply a mirror image of 125%, with slower forward shots and faster backwards ones. The only truly logical options for inheritance are 100% and 0%, and it's quite clear that 0% does not work in TRIBES.

And while T1 / T2c were amazing, they were not perfect and did not get everything right. True, 100% inheritance is the only system that frees you from needing to worry about the ground, and thus *was* the value on the chaingun in every incarnation of TRIBES, which nobody ever found hard or confusing to aim because of it. In fact, the chaingun was the *most* consistent weapon in the previous games.

True inhertance has been used in tons of incredibly successful video games from Asteroids to New Super Mario Bros Wii, and in many mods for T1 / T2 / T:V. Nearly every space / plane game in existence uses true inheritance, and TRIBES combat has a lot in common with aerial dogfights, notably predictable movement in 3D space, and shooting at both airborne and ground targets.

And for the final proof of the value of true inheritance, think about taking the shot in the following pic... with true, 100% inheritance, it's easy to aim: you simply lead the target in the direction that it's moving across your screen. With ANY other value, you'd have no idea which way your shot is going to go or how fast it will get there, and thus there is no way to know where to aim.

With true inheritance, every shot is the same. You simply lead your target to the reticle, and aim where the target is going to be.

------------------------- A D D E N D U M -------------------------

Lead Reticle / Training Wheels:

There has been much talk about a "Training Wheels" perk that adds a moving reticle that shows where your shot would hit the ground. This is what modern fighter planes and helicopters use, and would be an excellent tool for learning to lead ground shots. And as a player got more familar with leading, he would naturally need the reticle less and less as his natural aim would get better and better. At some point a player would simply become comfortable enough with aiming on his own that he'd rather take a different perk. And the beauty of true inheritance is that leading ground shots is the same as leading MAs, so the ground reticle would help a player internalize the amount of lead needed in any situation.

Another possiblity that has been discussed for the ground reticle is that it could be available any time you are within your sensor network. This would increase the value of the generators and add some depth and strategy to sensor farming.

Also, the targeting laser and beacons in previous TRIBES games were used to create an "aim point" that showed friendly players where to aim in order to hit the painted location. This added a level of teamwork that was quite interesting and fun, though top level players rarely needed to rely on this mechanic. Still, it was valuable for hitting arced shots from behind hills, etc, and would be an excellent addition to the game.

Shot Diagrams:

Here are a few shot diagrams of typical situations with various inheritance values. The dotted lines are where you would aim in each different system. Notice that the lower the inheritance, the further shots stray from where you aimed, and the more wildly varying the shot speeds. With true inheritance (in blue), the shots always go where you aimed and hit the target on the dotted line. Each animation is slowed to one half speed.

Diagram One: The players are traveling in opposite directions, both at 0.75 x the speed of the projectile. This is a typical situation of opposing offensive players flying past each other. Here you have to lead a bit more with 100% inheritance, but your shot hits your target at the spot where you aimed (as usual), while with lower inheritance the shots fly *way* sideways and slow, creating a large angle between the aim point and the hit point.

Diagram Two: The shooter and target are moving parallel to each other, with the shooter at 0.7 x and the target at 0.8 x the speed of the projectile. This is a typical chasing scenario. No explanation is necessary here, as we've all taken this shot many times. Anything less than 100% inheritance plainly makes the shot a lot harder, with massive amounts of lead even though the target is nearly stationary on your screen, and shots that come out sideways and slow, requiring predicting the target's location further out into the future.

Diagram Three: The shooter is moving at 0.4 x and the target at 0.3 x the speed of the projectile, with the target moving nearly perpendicular to the shooter. This is a fairly typical medium speed dueling situation... and with any of the systems other than true inheritance, you actually have to lead the WRONG WAY. IE: the target is moving RIGHT across your screen, but you have to aim to the LEFT of the target because of the sideways shots. This is just wrong.

Correcting all these physics issues will fix majority of the problems with the game. Not only will it fix the game but it will make sure that Ascend will last for years. It will also stop with the constant threads about the change of physics and the disappointed players that come along with it.

***Suggestion: Adding 100% Inheritance on automatics while nerfing them so that they aren't overpowered and are used as a secondary weapon

Thanks to WitchDoctorVega for indirectly showing me this poll site

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Physics Poll

Last edited by Styel on Thu May 03, 2012 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:33 pm

Immie

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:10 pm
Posts: 1310

Re: Poll: Physics

100% Inheritance on all weapons
I only see this being needed for bullet weapons/anything with very high velocity that is actually reliable for getting midair hits with
More powerful jetpacks with faster recharge speed
I'd like that, obviously would require a bunch of rebalancing for shield packs/any other energy draining items
Remove 72 km/h speed cap
Rather than completely remove it, I'd suggest making it a soft cap, where jet acceleration slowed down and stopped at around 100-150 km/h
True thrust vectoring
It'd be nice if pressing a directional input while jetting simply directed your thrust in that direction, while maintaining the rest of its current functionality
Non-frictionless skiing/air drag
Obviously would be needed with the jetpack changes above, but I can see this not being changed and not being a huge problem
Remove Jetless Air Control
I don't want this. After playing TA, T1/2 just feel clunky due to lack of control. I see no reason to go back other than pure nostalgia. Jetless air control simply adds depth on top of thrust vectoring, if done correctly

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Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:01 pm

Styel

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm
Posts: 631

Re: Poll: Physics

Immie wrote:

100% Inheritance on all weapons
I only see this being needed for bullet weapons/anything with very high velocity that is actually reliable for getting midair hits with
Which is every projectile
Remove 72 km/h speed cap
Rather than completely remove it, I'd suggest making it a soft cap, where jet acceleration slowed down and stopped at around 100-150 km/h
It has major bugs. When falling faster than 72 km/h, jetting makes you fall faster? It also prevents chasers from gaining speed
True thrust vectoring
It'd be nice if pressing a directional input while jetting simply directed your thrust in that direction, while maintaining the rest of its current functionality
Non-frictionless skiing/air drag
Obviously would be needed with the jetpack changes above
Yes
Remove Jetless Air Control
I don't want this. After playing TA, T1/2 just feel clunky due to lack of control. I see no reason to go back other than pure nostalgia. Jetless air control simply adds depth on top of thrust vectoring, if done correctly

This causes players movements to be unpredictable. The thrust vectoring will take place of this.

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Physics Poll

Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:26 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: Poll: Physics

Leave jet-less air control alone.... if you look at the characters in third person they're got continuous thruster burn in there jet-boots which easily explains how they can change directions midair.

Being unable to change your falling direction without using jetpack is important, because using jetpack slows your fall and is counterintuitive.
You'd need to redesign an entirely new key that caused very minor sidewaays thrust without vertical thrust in order to achieve what's already in the game... so no, removing air control is a step backwards.

The continuous jet-boot burn easily explains air control and makes it realistic.

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Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:30 pm

Immie

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:10 pm
Posts: 1310

Re: Poll: Physics

Slow projectiles don't feel good with 100% inheritance. Take at look at Starsiege: Tribes, Tribes: 2, Tribes: Areal Assault, and Tribes: Vengeance, which do not use 100% on disks, grenades, plasma, etc, but do use 100% on the chaingun.

Changing the 72km/h cap doesn't change the way the jetpacks work that causes downward acceleration when jetpacking.

Air control is super low and people are still forced to travel in very predictable patterns compared to when on the ground. All that removing it does it make the game feel clunky.

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Last edited by Immie on Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:32 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: Poll: Physics

Styel wrote:

This causes players movements to be unpredictable. The thrust vectoring will take place of this.

... You WANT unpredictable movement. Predictable movement = limited control = game controls feel bad = reduced fun in a high speed shooter = more frustrating duels due to inability to dodge.

I don't think you fully understand the ramifications of exactly what you're proposing.

Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:36 pm

Styel

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm
Posts: 631

Re: Poll: Physics

DibbzTheLoner wrote:

So if I was floating in air, when I move my hips should I turn directions? The "Jet-boots" are used during skiing. What happens if you are the type player that doesn't hold down the skiing key when in air? Should you still be able to turn in air without using your jetpack?

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Physics Poll

Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:38 pm

DrEuthanasia

Beta Tester

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 1101

Re: Poll: Physics

So where's the option for "I want some but not all of these important changes implemented"? Inheritance concerns and jetpacking concerns are not even remotely close to the same thing. It's unreasonable to expect people to agree unanimously with both.

As for you two talking about jetless air control, it's a big deal because there's no visual indication of it happening and it has a significant impact on dueling and shot prediction. You can dodge a perfectly aimed blue plate without even knowing about it or using your jets in this game, and decelerate in the middle of a duel for no real reason. It's not an objectively good feature like you make it out to be.

Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:38 pm

Styel

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:20 pm
Posts: 631

Re: Poll: Physics

DibbzTheLoner wrote:

Styel wrote:

This causes players movements to be unpredictable. The thrust vectoring will take place of this.

Have you played the other Tribes? If so, do you notice the lack of mid-air action in Ascend? That is because players are so unpredictable. That is why players wait until you hit the ground to shoot. You can still dodge, but it is easier to judge where to lead.

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Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

thesliver wrote:

I say "Son, stop being so newb"

Physics Poll

Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:41 pm

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: Poll: Physics

DrEuthanasia wrote:

This.

Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:41 pm

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Poll: Physics