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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...
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irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Unless I'm purposefully practicing a particular thing (learning a route, screwing around with Raider+Plasma, learning how to snipe), I always feel like I have a tremendous impact on the game whenever I play LD Chaser or HoF. So many games have been won or lost by clutch returns that I've made as LD, or by the sheer amount of flag denial I've had as HoF. If anything, unless there are no cappers on my team, I feel like I have the least impact on the game when I play flag capper/runner. I bought T2 when it came out and didn't stick around for it to get good, so I can't say anything about T2. But in T1, it was not uncommon for cap scores to go into the 20s on maps like Iceridge and Dangerous Crossing. Though of course if you were playing something like Scarabrae, it's always a retarded low score game that's usually decided by who has control of the middle tower when the timer runs out (lol... so many fond memories of Scarabrae games won or lost by ninjaing the tower at the last possible second).
Thu May 03, 2012 9:22 pm

Eficent Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:52 am Posts: 9	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... I had a CTF game yesterday that was over in about 4 minutes and 50 seconds. That should not even be possible even if the team has no defense what so ever. I agree that CTF has turned into a joke. Trying to defend in pubs is a joke, the generator is stupid easy to kill, all static defense can be sniped from across the map with a spinfuser. I guess I shouldn't be complaining because I have no idea what a solution to it all would be, but I just had to rant after a match that lasted less than 5 minutes. Some people will say get better, and sure I could do that; but less than 5 minutes isn't enough time to even see what you did wrong. I can only imagine anybody who was thinking of putting money into this game never turned it back on again after that. Anyway, just a little rant. I'm a b****, U mad bro, so on and so forth. Ad hominem arguments aside, that took away all my will to play. Can only see it getting worse as time goes on.
Fri May 04, 2012 12:57 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4879 Location: NA East	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... You don't have to know a solution. Plenty of us do. Hopefully, your ranting support will help them realize that the existing solutions are worth while. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Fri May 04, 2012 5:29 am

caaok Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm Posts: 1110	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Eficent wrote: I had a CTF game yesterday that was over in about 4 minutes and 50 seconds. That should not even be possible even if the team has no defense what so ever. I agree that CTF has turned into a joke. Trying to defend in pubs is a joke, the generator is stupid easy to kill, all static defense can be sniped from across the map with a spinfuser. I guess I shouldn't be complaining because I have no idea what a solution to it all would be, but I just had to rant after a match that lasted less than 5 minutes. Some people will say get better, and sure I could do that; but less than 5 minutes isn't enough time to even see what you did wrong. I can only imagine anybody who was thinking of putting money into this game never turned it back on again after that. Anyway, just a little rant. I'm a b**, U mad bro, so on and so forth. Ad hominem arguments aside, that took away all my will to play. Can only see it getting worse as time goes on. Well there's your problem right there, you think the generators matter. The problem is that most pubbies are playing capture the generator, while leaving the flag wide open for cowboy cappers. Having the generator up is a nice bonus provided you're defending your flag. Having a generator up doesn't do s* to increase the difficulty of capping off an empty or mostly empty stand. 5 minute capouts are almost universally due to two things, usually both: 1) Massive teamstacking. 2) Complete lack of flag defense and chasers. Neither have anything to do with balance. Yes, the game is skewed toward offense, but not so much in a 16v16 pub with generally slow grabbers and poor coordination. If you've ever played a pub as a pathfinder against a HoF and a few LD/MD (especially those exploiting the ez-mode of nitroning the stand), it's an exercise in frustration. Now add in the shrikers that dominate pub matches and the occasional sentinel, and cowboy capping suddenly becomes much less of a problem. Why doesn't this always happen? Because invariably half your team is having disco parties in the generator rooms, while there probably aren't even any base assets alive to power. _________________ What we lose with hitscan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY
Fri May 04, 2012 9:10 am

Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... caaok wrote: Eficent wrote: I had a CTF game yesterday that was over in about 4 minutes and 50 seconds. That should not even be possible even if the team has no defense what so ever. I agree that CTF has turned into a joke. Trying to defend in pubs is a joke, the generator is stupid easy to kill, all static defense can be sniped from across the map with a spinfuser. I guess I shouldn't be complaining because I have no idea what a solution to it all would be, but I just had to rant after a match that lasted less than 5 minutes. Some people will say get better, and sure I could do that; but less than 5 minutes isn't enough time to even see what you did wrong. I can only imagine anybody who was thinking of putting money into this game never turned it back on again after that. Anyway, just a little rant. I'm a b**, U mad bro, so on and so forth. Ad hominem arguments aside, that took away all my will to play. Can only see it getting worse as time goes on. Well there's your problem right there, you think the generators matter. The problem is that most pubbies are playing capture the generator, while leaving the flag wide open for cowboy cappers. Having the generator up is a nice bonus provided you're defending your flag. Having a generator up doesn't do s* to increase the difficulty of capping off an empty or mostly empty stand. 5 minute capouts are almost universally due to two things, usually both: 1) Massive teamstacking. 2) Complete lack of flag defense and chasers. Neither have anything to do with balance. Yes, the game is skewed toward offense, but not so much in a 16v16 pub with generally slow grabbers and poor coordination. If you've ever played a pub as a pathfinder against a HoF and a few LD/MD (especially those exploiting the ez-mode of nitroning the stand), it's an exercise in frustration. Now add in the shrikers that dominate pub matches and the occasional sentinel, and cowboy capping suddenly becomes much less of a problem. Why doesn't this always happen? Because invariably half your team is having disco parties in the generator rooms, while there probably aren't even any base assets alive to power. On SunStar, the generator does matter. Also, there's constantly talk on these forums about making the generator matter more, as well as naked spawn servers and the like. Point is, for the most part the generator doesn't matter (but it being down doesn't help your defense any), but it's only going to get MORE important from this point on, which will help nothing in the long run as it means the generator room deathmatch will only grow. Quote: Yes, the game is skewed toward offense, but not so much in a 16v16 pub with generally slow grabbers and poor coordination. We're not talking about the 'generally slow grabbers' though. Rather, we're talking about the impact a skill difference in flag grabbers can have especially relative to their impact in any other role. A hot-s*** soldier or raider can get a lot of kills, but still fall to concentrated bullet spam. A great shot with a Sentinel can be tied up by an infiltrator, or really just about anyone who sneaks up to him outside his LoS. Point is in just about any other role, a PubStar probably isn't going to dictate the outcome of the game, unless that role is the Pathfinder. Due to the design of the game and the brokenness of the class, the PubStar Pathfinder is the one who's going to win the match for you.
Fri May 04, 2012 9:20 am

caaok Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm Posts: 1110	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... A pubstar pathfinder can easily be shut down by mines or forcefields (provided they're well placed) and a HoF. 300+kph means you have no maneuverability and no time to get off more than one decent clearing shot at the stand. Invariably you'll say something about "well people clear the stand!". Firstly, I've been in plenty of pubs where no one does. Secondly, even if they do, we're now talking about a 2v1 or greater situation, which means you shouldn't come out the victor in the first place. The gens barely matter on Sunstar, especially in pubs. Most grabs in pubs are ~150 because pub cappers can't figure out proper routes on the flat terrain. I think I've seen a proper back-to-front grab in a pub maybe... once? Sunstar also has one of the easiest to defend generator rooms. Two players out of 16 can easily shut down anything but the most concerted and coordinated generator offense. I've spent games soloing the generator room as a lone tech when I'm bored. There are two entrances, easily covered by motion sensors and turrets. The game is absolutely not making the gens more relevant any time soon. I'm not sure where you got the delusional idea that naked spawns are coming to pub play, but they aren't. And the game type is essentially a novelty anyway, it's terribly balanced because they attempted to take a small piece of the old games and implement it here without any of the mechanics that balanced it in the old games. Yes, there's constant talk about making the generators more relevant. If anything, they're being made less relevant, and when they do become more relevant, people constantly cry about it (see: oldschool Bella, and the original Temple Ruins with 3x turrets sitting above the flagstand). That was generator relevance. People hated it. Any pubstar can dominate a pub game, which is the point. Pubs aren't balanced due to the inherent skill disparity. I arguably contributed the most to a win for our team using a variety of classes (there's no such thing as a true singlehanded win), whether as a pathfinder, doombringer, tech, raider, juggernaut... Anything is possible depending on who and what you're playing against. A good sentinel or shriker can arguably ruin a game much more so than any cowboy capper. Having more than one of those on a team = say goodbye to your chances of winning. _________________ What we lose with hitscan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY
Fri May 04, 2012 10:04 am

disci Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:48 pm Posts: 1025 Location: Winland	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Better pubstar vs a team of bad pubstar, who gonna win? PF is so d* easy to kill on the stand and most of the players running "routes" are so f* easy to catch that I do it with soldier. Grow a pair and try to think what you're doing wrong. If it's llamas standing on your flagstand and no one is taking care of them, then it's your teams fault. Someone should fill the stayD position and clear them out. They are mostly PF's so that means they are easy to kill.
Fri May 04, 2012 11:07 am

IronKane Beta Tester Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 497	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... caaok wrote: I think I've seen a proper back-to-front grab in a pub maybe... once? Once you made that statement, you lost all credibility. Crossfire. While most Pathfinders will do the (stupid imho) flanking grab, I and others do the back the front all the time. I'll usually do it as a Soldier, but I've also done it quite a few times as a Brute as well. Back to topic: They need to create some BIG maps with BIG COMPLEX Bases in addition to these smaller, faster maps. Hi-Rez needs to also ignore the Speed Facists because they always complain about maps where they can't just swoop in for a flag grab or they have too much turret coverage like previous version of Temple Ruins or shielded maps like bella omega. I'm so tired of this "Look at me! See how fast I can go!!!!" mentality.
Fri May 04, 2012 11:17 am

SFJake Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:11 pm Posts: 381	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... IronKane wrote: caaok wrote: I think I've seen a proper back-to-front grab in a pub maybe... once? Once you made that statement, you lost all credibility. Crossfire. He was talking about Sunstar SPECIFICALLY you twat. Nobody ever does back to front on Sunstar when the generator is down. _________________ http://sfjake.zxq.net
Fri May 04, 2012 11:18 am

caaok Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm Posts: 1110	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... IronKane wrote: caaok wrote: I think I've seen a proper back-to-front grab in a pub maybe... once? Once you made that statement, you lost all credibility. Crossfire. While most Pathfinders will do the (stupid imho) flanking grab, I and others do the back the front all the time. I'll usually do it as a Soldier, but I've also done it quite a few times as a Brute as well. Back to topic: They need to create some BIG maps with BIG COMPLEX Bases in addition to these smaller, faster maps. Hi-Rez needs to also ignore the Speed Facists because they always complain about maps where they can't just swoop in for a flag grab or they have too much turret coverage like previous version of Temple Ruins or shielded maps like bella omega. I'm so tired of this "Look at me! See how fast I can go!!!!" mentality. Sunstar bud. Learn how to read a post and infer context instead of reading a sentence and then dismissing it out of hand. I actually agree that we need indoor flag stands and more complex maps, but it's a fact that the playerbase as a whole doesn't want that... so I don't see it happening. The community outrage over making the flag even marginally difficult to cap was, quite frankly, mind boggling. _________________ What we lose with hitscan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY
Fri May 04, 2012 11:50 am

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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

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irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Unless I'm purposefully practicing a particular thing (learning a route, screwing around with Raider+Plasma, learning how to snipe), I always feel like I have a tremendous impact on the game whenever I play LD Chaser or HoF. So many games have been won or lost by clutch returns that I've made as LD, or by the sheer amount of flag denial I've had as HoF.

If anything, unless there are no cappers on my team, I feel like I have the least impact on the game when I play flag capper/runner.

I bought T2 when it came out and didn't stick around for it to get good, so I can't say anything about T2. But in T1, it was not uncommon for cap scores to go into the 20s on maps like Iceridge and Dangerous Crossing. Though of course if you were playing something like Scarabrae, it's always a retarded low score game that's usually decided by who has control of the middle tower when the timer runs out (lol... so many fond memories of Scarabrae games won or lost by ninjaing the tower at the last possible second).

Thu May 03, 2012 9:22 pm

Eficent

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:52 am
Posts: 9

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

I had a CTF game yesterday that was over in about 4 minutes and 50 seconds. That should not even be possible even if the team has no defense what so ever. I agree that CTF has turned into a joke. Trying to defend in pubs is a joke, the generator is stupid easy to kill, all static defense can be sniped from across the map with a spinfuser. I guess I shouldn't be complaining because I have no idea what a solution to it all would be, but I just had to rant after a match that lasted less than 5 minutes. Some people will say get better, and sure I could do that; but less than 5 minutes isn't enough time to even see what you did wrong. I can only imagine anybody who was thinking of putting money into this game never turned it back on again after that.

Anyway, just a little rant. I'm a b****, U mad bro, so on and so forth. Ad hominem arguments aside, that took away all my will to play. Can only see it getting worse as time goes on.

Fri May 04, 2012 12:57 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4879
Location: NA East

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

You don't have to know a solution. Plenty of us do. Hopefully, your ranting support will help them realize that the existing solutions are worth while.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Fri May 04, 2012 5:29 am

caaok

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 1110

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Eficent wrote:

Well there's your problem right there, you think the generators matter.

The problem is that most pubbies are playing capture the generator, while leaving the flag wide open for cowboy cappers. Having the generator up is a nice bonus provided you're defending your flag. Having a generator up doesn't do s*** to increase the difficulty of capping off an empty or mostly empty stand.

5 minute capouts are almost universally due to two things, usually both:
1) Massive teamstacking.
2) Complete lack of flag defense and chasers.

Neither have anything to do with balance. Yes, the game is skewed toward offense, but not so much in a 16v16 pub with generally slow grabbers and poor coordination. If you've ever played a pub as a pathfinder against a HoF and a few LD/MD (especially those exploiting the ez-mode of nitroning the stand), it's an exercise in frustration. Now add in the shrikers that dominate pub matches and the occasional sentinel, and cowboy capping suddenly becomes much less of a problem.

Why doesn't this always happen? Because invariably half your team is having disco parties in the generator rooms, while there probably aren't even any base assets alive to power.

_________________
What we lose with hitscan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY

Fri May 04, 2012 9:10 am

Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

caaok wrote:

Eficent wrote:

On SunStar, the generator *does* matter. Also, there's constantly talk on these forums about making the generator matter more, as well as naked spawn servers and the like.

Point is, for the most part the generator doesn't matter (but it being down doesn't help your defense any), but it's only going to get MORE important from this point on, which will help nothing in the long run as it means the generator room deathmatch will only grow.

Quote:

Yes, the game is skewed toward offense, but not so much in a 16v16 pub with generally slow grabbers and poor coordination.

We're not talking about the 'generally slow grabbers' though. Rather, we're talking about the impact a skill difference in flag grabbers can have especially relative to their impact in any other role. A hot-s*** soldier or raider can get a lot of kills, but still fall to concentrated bullet spam. A great shot with a Sentinel can be tied up by an infiltrator, or really just about anyone who sneaks up to him outside his LoS.

Point is in just about any other role, a PubStar probably isn't going to dictate the outcome of the game, unless that role is the Pathfinder. Due to the design of the game and the brokenness of the class, the PubStar Pathfinder is the one who's going to win the match for you.

Fri May 04, 2012 9:20 am

caaok

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 1110

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

A pubstar pathfinder can easily be shut down by mines or forcefields (provided they're well placed) and a HoF. 300+kph means you have no maneuverability and no time to get off more than one decent clearing shot at the stand.

Invariably you'll say something about "well people clear the stand!". Firstly, I've been in plenty of pubs where no one does. Secondly, even if they do, we're now talking about a 2v1 or greater situation, which means you shouldn't come out the victor in the first place.

The gens barely matter on Sunstar, especially in pubs. Most grabs in pubs are ~150 because pub cappers can't figure out proper routes on the flat terrain. I think I've seen a proper back-to-front grab in a pub maybe... once? Sunstar also has one of the easiest to defend generator rooms. Two players out of 16 can easily shut down anything but the most concerted and coordinated generator offense. I've spent games soloing the generator room as a lone tech when I'm bored. There are two entrances, easily covered by motion sensors and turrets.

The game is absolutely not making the gens more relevant any time soon. I'm not sure where you got the delusional idea that naked spawns are coming to pub play, but they aren't. And the game type is essentially a novelty anyway, it's terribly balanced because they attempted to take a small piece of the old games and implement it here without any of the mechanics that balanced it in the old games. Yes, there's constant talk about making the generators more relevant. If anything, they're being made less relevant, and when they do become more relevant, people constantly cry about it (see: oldschool Bella, and the original Temple Ruins with 3x turrets sitting above the flagstand). That was generator relevance. People hated it.

Any pubstar can dominate a pub game, which is the point. Pubs aren't balanced due to the inherent skill disparity. I arguably contributed the most to a win for our team using a variety of classes (there's no such thing as a true singlehanded win), whether as a pathfinder, doombringer, tech, raider, juggernaut... Anything is possible depending on who and what you're playing against. A good sentinel or shriker can arguably ruin a game much more so than any cowboy capper. Having more than one of those on a team = say goodbye to your chances of winning.

_________________
What we lose with hitscan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY

Fri May 04, 2012 10:04 am

disci

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:48 pm
Posts: 1025
Location: Winland

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Better pubstar vs a team of bad pubstar, who gonna win?

PF is so d*** easy to kill on the stand and most of the players running "routes" are so f*** easy to catch that I do it with soldier. Grow a pair and try to think what you're doing wrong. If it's llamas standing on your flagstand and no one is taking care of them, then it's your teams fault. Someone should fill the stayD position and clear them out. They are mostly PF's so that means they are easy to kill.

Fri May 04, 2012 11:07 am

IronKane

Beta Tester

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 497

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

caaok wrote:

I think I've seen a proper back-to-front grab in a pub maybe... once?

Once you made that statement, you lost all credibility. Crossfire. While most Pathfinders will do the (stupid imho) flanking grab, I and others do the back the front all the time. I'll usually do it as a Soldier, but I've also done it quite a few times as a Brute as well.

Back to topic: They need to create some BIG maps with BIG COMPLEX Bases in addition to these smaller, faster maps. Hi-Rez needs to also ignore the Speed Facists because they always complain about maps where they can't just swoop in for a flag grab or they have too much turret coverage like previous version of Temple Ruins or shielded maps like bella omega.

I'm so tired of this "Look at me! See how fast I can go!!!!" mentality.

Fri May 04, 2012 11:17 am

SFJake

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:11 pm
Posts: 381

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

IronKane wrote:

caaok wrote:

I think I've seen a proper back-to-front grab in a pub maybe... once?

Once you made that statement, you lost all credibility. Crossfire.

He was talking about Sunstar SPECIFICALLY you twat. Nobody ever does back to front on Sunstar when the generator is down.

_________________
http://sfjake.zxq.net

Fri May 04, 2012 11:18 am

caaok

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 1110

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

IronKane wrote:

caaok wrote:

I think I've seen a proper back-to-front grab in a pub maybe... once?

Sunstar bud. Learn how to read a post and infer context instead of reading a sentence and then dismissing it out of hand.

I actually agree that we need indoor flag stands and more complex maps, but it's a fact that the playerbase as a whole doesn't want that... so I don't see it happening. The community outrage over making the flag even marginally difficult to cap was, quite frankly, mind boggling.

_________________
What we lose with hitscan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XevsFIitY

Fri May 04, 2012 11:50 am

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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...