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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...
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Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... I'm still failing to see the validity of these pro-Pathfinder arguments that basically revolve around discussing the coordination of a team's defense with HOFs, Techs, and chasers. These PubStar Pathfinders are almost always soloists and the most communication they have with their team is VFF followed by obscenities because someone robbed them of their sweet grab. It's well-known that the best indication of bad design is requiring an unbalanced number or type of assets to counter a given tactic, and given the impotence of defense vs. offense as well as the level of teamwork (implicit or otherwise) to organize a defense versus offense, I'm still seeing Pathfinders being the imbalanced factor. Point is, the generic scrubs on your team are going to probably find themselves around the enemy flagstand more than their own, so whether or not they're explicitly going for the flagstand, their mere presence serves to distract defenders (they could just be going for the gen for all I know), their shots are going to target turrets and other defenses... whereas on the other hand, the only time people hang around their own flagstand is the brief moment where they respawn, before they immediately ski to the join the skirmish inside the enemy gen room. Even in a perfectly-matched game with zero pubstars, you're simply much, much more likely to have more enemies around your flag stand than friendlies, and that's just how this game's miserable excuse for CTF plays. So, given that, I still see zero validity in arguing that Pathfinders are using 'teamwork' to clear the enemy stand, simply because that's just an inevitability. But this ties more into my remarks about how defense is underpowered, impotent, and fairly dull.
Fri May 04, 2012 6:51 pm

irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... A pubstar Soldier can run a 150-200+ route and still be incredibly difficult to catch in the situations you're describing where the Pathfinder seems OP. The fact that Pathfinders are most frequently capping flags (because that's their role, derp) is irrelevant to the fact that capping itself is made easy or hard by the circumstances of the game. As I've said many times before this, in these kinds of games/situations, the game was already ruined well before the Pathfinder even had a chance to VFF. You want to make this into a discussion of chasing vs. capping, defense vs. offense, and incentivizing players to play CTF, then that's great. Those are problems widely acknowledged by most of the posters in this thread. But the reality is that this isn't a "pro Pathfinder" vs. "anti Pathfinder" debate. This is a "blame everything on Pathfinders" vs. "no, look, all these other things are the real causes for what you see" debate. Pathfinders aren't ruining the game. Teamstacking, lack of teamwork in pubs, lack of proper incentives to play proper CTF, including but not limited to flag defense, are ruining the game.
Fri May 04, 2012 7:14 pm

Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Even if everything else was sorted out I still see serious problem with Pathfinders in other capacities. - Light Spinfusor: This is a problem with all spinfusors, but it simply bears repeating: The ability to snipe assets from halfway across the map, even beyond visual range is utterly unnecessary for ANY spinfusor. While it's not always practical for a Pathfinder to snipe the base defenders with constant disc fire and still manage a cap due to speed, it is possible, and it cannot simply be ignored. If a Pathfinder sees that defenses are too thick, he can simply wave off, park himself on a hillside and spam discs at the stand to break them up. The Pathfinder should have effectively zero ability to compromise flag defenses on his own. - Bolt Launcher: It is, for all intents and purposes, the Soldier Spinfusor on a light class. The splash radius and rate of fire are identical, the damage is so much slightly less that it simply will almost never matter, the ammo counts are similar, the only real difference is the bolt launcher has an arcing trajectory. Why does the PATHFINDER get this weapon? The fact that its ballistic trajectory is superior to the mortar is just embarrassing. - Light Assault Rifle: Pursuant to the previous weapon, let me point out that the Soldier Spinfusor comes at expense of the automatic rifle, whereas the Pathfinder's LAR not only does quite good damage at acceptable range with high accuracy, but replaces the nearly-useless shotgun. This class does not deserve what are basically two Soldier primaries on the same loadout. There's other things as well. Health regeneration mid-flight has simplified routes tremendously. Nitron grenades, with their massive knockback and extremely low damage, have further trivialized speed as well as quite obviously making the explosive nitrons an incredibly stupid choice. Ask me, the knockback grenades should be the explosive nitrons which deal tremendous damage to yourself, with the standard nitrons being used only for flag drops. This isn't even factoring in perks like Reach which only serves to compromise defense and trivialize flag grabbing even more. I can accept Pathfinders being the 'capping class', but they give up almost nothing for it. Their weapons are excellent. Their utility is excellent. The packs are good, their upgrades are good. Scouts in TF2 are intended to be the point and flag grabbers, but scouts are incredibly hard to play well. You give up a lot to play a Scout. I don't see Pathfinders in T:A giving up anything at all. Simply adding flag drag and removing the ability to regenerate health at high speeds would do a lot to curtail the soloist capping power of Pathfinders, but I also wouldn't object whatsoever to removing 100 health from the class as well as severely scaling back the effectivness of the Bolt Launcher and LAR, and perhaps the light spinfusor as well. You don't get to be the hands-down best capping class and an incredibly competent duelist as well. It shouldn't work that way.
Fri May 04, 2012 8:14 pm

ArchangelXv1 Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:05 pm Posts: 1600 Location: Oahu,Hawaii	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... These last few posts just repeatedly point at the core problem...the classes. Before, when you just had the option to choose your armor, then weapons and kit...there were never arguments like this. HiRez created so many problems by going this route...necessary due to their current F2P implementation. _________________ Communication is a very worthy thing. Fool's Epic T1 Movie
Fri May 04, 2012 9:01 pm

Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... ArchangelXv1 wrote: These last few posts just repeatedly point at the core problem...the classes. Before, when you just had the option to choose your armor, then weapons and kit...there were never arguments like this. HiRez created so many problems by going this route...necessary due to their current F2P implementation. I'm starting to think about what would be possible if you combined Sentinel and Infiltrator, then split Pathfinder into a fast but incredibly useless class and a slower but more dueltastic / light offense class. Make the sniper rifles incompatible with the stealth pack and, worst case, you have a sniper with a good pistol and a nice grenade. And the best solution to high speed soloists is still flag drag / regeneration limitations at speed, in my eyes.
Fri May 04, 2012 11:24 pm

Banock Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:58 am Posts: 47	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Ya know, I've read the whole thread and at this point I don't really care. All I know is that 4 out of 5 of the CTF matches I play just SUCK. The game ends quickly 5-0 or 5-1. I could be on the winning team or the losing team, either way i didn't have fun, and THAT'S what this whole thing boils down to. I'm not having fun playing CTF. More power to you if you are having a good time but I'm about ready to just never play CTF again. I enjoy the TDM and REALLY like Capture and Hold but CTF just isn't cutting it. And honestly I don't care if the problem is pathfinders or orbitals or Josie and the pussycats. It just sucks to try to do SOMETHING to defend your base, and realize there IS NO POINT, because you are freaking OUT NUMBERED there and that the matches are going to CONTINUE to play this way once a team gets stacked.
Sat May 05, 2012 12:25 am

disci Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:48 pm Posts: 1025 Location: Winland	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Games you play would be different if most of the people would contribute. Most cappers does nitron jump before grabbing the flag and almost any explosive weapon there is will kill them IF there is anyone guarding the flag. Can't believe you guys complain how hard it is to prevent them to grab the flag, when it's all about awarness and being at the right place. This thread is screaming, "I can't do even the simplest task in this game and that's why PF is OP and should be nerfed". Listen to yourself. It's sad and hilarious at the same time.
Sat May 05, 2012 5:52 am

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4813 Location: NA East	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Single pub star cappers are easy to block. Super Heavy. You don't need snipeable mines, or a FF, you just need Super Heavy, a Chain gun, and knowledge of the routes they are executing. The problem comes when they have multiple LO spamming the stand. That, though is teamwork, and requires teamwork to counter. Typically, as a HoF I can handle up to 3. Past that, I need help, but 3 cappers, or stand spammers, I'll mow down, NP. Nothing is worse than not having a chaser. Nothing. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Sat May 05, 2012 6:02 am

Pingles Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:28 pm Posts: 1733	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... -AEnubis- wrote: Nothing is worse than not having a chaser. Nothing. Or any backup to HoF at all. I actually enjoy HoF but just too depressing getting there and there's nobody to swat away pesky D-destroyers or even to go chase down the dude mid-map who is sending one disc after another at you. You're there, all alone, trying to scan for cappers AND defend the flagstaff d D. It happens quite a bit to me. So I go capping. _________________
Sat May 05, 2012 10:36 am

bloodgulge2 Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:12 pm Posts: 259	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... I mainly play defense/chase pathfinder and offensive inf. I must say that these 5-0 pubstomps only happen when there's a capper, indeed going close to 300, doing a back to front and capping it within 10 seconds. Often in those games, our team doesn't get the e-grab because of offensive incompetence. I must say tough, that these cappers have to be stopped at one of the flagstands, because there is no real combat in-between except for pro snipers. To fix this, the maps would have to be designed so that a 300 grab is only possible when coming in at a bad angle for returning to your base. This way there's the chance to cut the capper off because he needs to make a big circle, or launch a quick offense at their stand to grab it. (for example: in temple, a good left to right can go over 300 easily, and fly back to the other base in a near-straight line. A right to left is far less common, because the capper has to circle a lot more. A solution might be to make the map a little smaller on the sides or back to prevent the pth's from gaining that speed in that direction. A fast grab is still possible in other directions, and will be harder to stop at the stand, but that way, there will be more risk on the way back. Right now, there are plenty of routes that give you both grabbing speed and returning speed, which is very hard to deal with. Eliminating risk while grabbing (speed) should come with added risk to ski back to base. A good angle will give you a quick ski back to base, but will include more risk at the grab. That way, decisions have to be made. Atm people just run the best back-to-front they can find nearly exclusively. _________________ Check out my vid: 10 funny tactics in tribes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMWHb7weiQ
Sat May 05, 2012 10:50 am

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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

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Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

I'm still failing to see the validity of these pro-Pathfinder arguments that basically revolve around discussing the coordination of a team's defense with HOFs, Techs, and chasers.

These PubStar Pathfinders are almost always soloists and the most communication they have with their team is VFF followed by obscenities because someone robbed them of their sweet grab.

It's well-known that the best indication of bad design is requiring an unbalanced number or type of assets to counter a given tactic, and given the impotence of defense vs. offense as well as the level of teamwork (implicit or otherwise) to organize a defense versus offense, I'm still seeing Pathfinders being the imbalanced factor.

Point is, the generic scrubs on your team are going to probably find themselves around the enemy flagstand more than their own, so whether or not they're explicitly going for the flagstand, their mere presence serves to distract defenders (they could just be going for the gen for all I know), their shots are going to target turrets and other defenses... whereas on the other hand, the only time people hang around their own flagstand is the brief moment where they respawn, before they immediately ski to the join the skirmish inside the enemy gen room.

Even in a perfectly-matched game with zero pubstars, you're simply much, much more likely to have more enemies around your flag stand than friendlies, and that's just how this game's miserable excuse for CTF plays.

So, given that, I still see zero validity in arguing that Pathfinders are using 'teamwork' to clear the enemy stand, simply because that's just an inevitability. But this ties more into my remarks about how defense is underpowered, impotent, and fairly dull.

Fri May 04, 2012 6:51 pm

irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

A pubstar Soldier can run a 150-200+ route and still be incredibly difficult to catch in the situations you're describing where the Pathfinder seems OP. The fact that Pathfinders are most frequently capping flags (because that's their role, derp) is irrelevant to the fact that capping itself is made easy or hard by the circumstances of the game. As I've said many times before this, in these kinds of games/situations, the game was already ruined well before the Pathfinder even had a chance to VFF.

You want to make this into a discussion of chasing vs. capping, defense vs. offense, and incentivizing players to play CTF, then that's great. Those are problems widely acknowledged by most of the posters in this thread.

But the reality is that this isn't a "pro Pathfinder" vs. "anti Pathfinder" debate. This is a "blame everything on Pathfinders" vs. "no, look, all these other things are the real causes for what you see" debate.

Pathfinders aren't ruining the game. Teamstacking, lack of teamwork in pubs, lack of proper incentives to play proper CTF, including but not limited to flag defense, are ruining the game.

Fri May 04, 2012 7:14 pm

Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Even if everything else was sorted out I still see serious problem with Pathfinders in other capacities.

- Light Spinfusor: This is a problem with all spinfusors, but it simply bears repeating: The ability to snipe assets from halfway across the map, even beyond visual range is utterly unnecessary for ANY spinfusor. While it's not always practical for a Pathfinder to snipe the base defenders with constant disc fire and still manage a cap due to speed, it is possible, and it cannot simply be ignored. If a Pathfinder sees that defenses are too thick, he can simply wave off, park himself on a hillside and spam discs at the stand to break them up. The Pathfinder should have effectively zero ability to compromise flag defenses on his own.

- Bolt Launcher: It is, for all intents and purposes, the Soldier Spinfusor on a light class. The splash radius and rate of fire are identical, the damage is so much slightly less that it simply will almost never matter, the ammo counts are similar, the only real difference is the bolt launcher has an arcing trajectory. Why does the PATHFINDER get this weapon? The fact that its ballistic trajectory is superior to the mortar is just embarrassing.

- Light Assault Rifle: Pursuant to the previous weapon, let me point out that the Soldier Spinfusor comes at expense of the automatic rifle, whereas the Pathfinder's LAR not only does quite good damage at acceptable range with high accuracy, but replaces the nearly-useless shotgun. This class does *not* deserve what are basically two Soldier primaries on the same loadout.

There's other things as well. Health regeneration mid-flight has simplified routes tremendously. Nitron grenades, with their massive knockback and extremely low damage, have further trivialized speed as well as quite obviously making the explosive nitrons an incredibly stupid choice. Ask me, the knockback grenades should be the explosive nitrons which deal tremendous damage to yourself, with the standard nitrons being used only for flag drops.

This isn't even factoring in perks like Reach which only serves to compromise defense and trivialize flag grabbing even more.

I can accept Pathfinders being the 'capping class', but they give up almost nothing for it. Their weapons are excellent. Their utility is excellent. The packs are good, their upgrades are good. Scouts in TF2 are intended to be the point and flag grabbers, but scouts are incredibly hard to play well. You give up a lot to play a Scout. I don't see Pathfinders in T:A giving up anything at all.

Simply adding flag drag and removing the ability to regenerate health at high speeds would do a lot to curtail the soloist capping power of Pathfinders, but I also wouldn't object whatsoever to removing 100 health from the class as well as severely scaling back the effectivness of the Bolt Launcher and LAR, and perhaps the light spinfusor as well. You don't get to be the hands-down best capping class and an incredibly competent duelist as well. It shouldn't work that way.

Fri May 04, 2012 8:14 pm

ArchangelXv1

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:05 pm
Posts: 1600
Location: Oahu,Hawaii

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

These last few posts just repeatedly point at the core problem...the classes. Before, when you just had the option to choose your armor, then weapons and kit...there were never arguments like this.

HiRez created so many problems by going this route...necessary due to their current F2P implementation.

_________________
Communication is a very worthy thing.

Fool's Epic T1 Movie

Fri May 04, 2012 9:01 pm

Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

ArchangelXv1 wrote:

I'm starting to think about what would be possible if you combined Sentinel and Infiltrator, then split Pathfinder into a fast but incredibly useless class and a slower but more dueltastic / light offense class. Make the sniper rifles incompatible with the stealth pack and, worst case, you have a sniper with a good pistol and a nice grenade.

And the best solution to high speed soloists is still flag drag / regeneration limitations at speed, in my eyes.

Fri May 04, 2012 11:24 pm

Banock

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:58 am
Posts: 47

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Ya know, I've read the whole thread and at this point I don't really care. All I know is that 4 out of 5 of the CTF matches I play just SUCK. The game ends quickly 5-0 or 5-1. I could be on the winning team or the losing team, either way i didn't have fun, and THAT'S what this whole thing boils down to.

I'm not having fun playing CTF.

More power to you if you are having a good time but I'm about ready to just never play CTF again. I enjoy the TDM and REALLY like Capture and Hold but CTF just isn't cutting it.

And honestly I don't care if the problem is pathfinders or orbitals or Josie and the pussycats. It just sucks to try to do SOMETHING to defend your base, and realize there IS NO POINT, because you are freaking OUT NUMBERED there and that the matches are going to CONTINUE to play this way once a team gets stacked.

Sat May 05, 2012 12:25 am

disci

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:48 pm
Posts: 1025
Location: Winland

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Games you play would be different if most of the people would contribute. Most cappers does nitron jump before grabbing the flag and almost any explosive weapon there is will kill them IF there is anyone guarding the flag. Can't believe you guys complain how hard it is to prevent them to grab the flag, when it's all about awarness and being at the right place.

This thread is screaming, "I can't do even the simplest task in this game and that's why PF is OP and should be nerfed". Listen to yourself. It's sad and hilarious at the same time.

Sat May 05, 2012 5:52 am

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4813
Location: NA East

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Single pub star cappers are easy to block. Super Heavy. You don't need snipeable mines, or a FF, you just need Super Heavy, a Chain gun, and knowledge of the routes they are executing.

The problem comes when they have multiple LO spamming the stand. That, though is teamwork, and requires teamwork to counter. Typically, as a HoF I can handle up to 3. Past that, I need help, but 3 cappers, or stand spammers, I'll mow down, NP.

Nothing is worse than not having a chaser. Nothing.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Sat May 05, 2012 6:02 am

Pingles

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1733

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

-AEnubis- wrote:

Nothing is worse than not having a chaser. Nothing.

Or any backup to HoF at all. I actually enjoy HoF but just too depressing getting there and there's nobody to swat away pesky D-destroyers or even to go chase down the dude mid-map who is sending one disc after another at you. You're there, all alone, trying to scan for cappers AND defend the flagstaff d D.

It happens quite a bit to me. So I go capping.

_________________

Sat May 05, 2012 10:36 am

bloodgulge2

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:12 pm
Posts: 259

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

I mainly play defense/chase pathfinder and offensive inf. I must say that these 5-0 pubstomps only happen when there's a capper, indeed going close to 300, doing a back to front and capping it within 10 seconds. Often in those games, our team doesn't get the e-grab because of offensive incompetence.

I must say tough, that these cappers have to be stopped at one of the flagstands, because there is no real combat in-between except for pro snipers.

To fix this, the maps would have to be designed so that a 300 grab is only possible when coming in at a bad angle for returning to your base. This way there's the chance to cut the capper off because he needs to make a big circle, or launch a quick offense at their stand to grab it. (for example: in temple, a good left to right can go over 300 easily, and fly back to the other base in a near-straight line. A right to left is far less common, because the capper has to circle a lot more.

A solution might be to make the map a little smaller on the sides or back to prevent the pth's from gaining that speed in that direction. A fast grab is still possible in other directions, and will be harder to stop at the stand, but that way, there will be more risk on the way back.

Right now, there are plenty of routes that give you both grabbing speed and returning speed, which is very hard to deal with.

Eliminating risk while grabbing (speed) should come with added risk to ski back to base. A good angle will give you a quick ski back to base, but will include more risk at the grab.

That way, decisions have to be made. Atm people just run the best back-to-front they can find nearly exclusively.

_________________
Check out my vid: 10 funny tactics in tribes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMWHb7weiQ

Sat May 05, 2012 10:50 am

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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...