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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...
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Casus125 Beta Tester Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:31 am Posts: 293	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... CTF is just a broken game mode, in order for it to be fun it would need about 100x more Sport, and 100x less Game.
Fri May 04, 2012 1:27 pm

FreaK367 Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm Posts: 587 Location: England Steam Gamer Name: FreaK	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Stacking is the problem, but I think stacking is more of a mentality. Most people think stacking begins with the offense, but it begins with the defense, "stacked" teams that steamroll other teams always have the best defense. Multiple Doombringers, Tech's etc.. that can stop the majority of attempts, and the unstacked team usually has 0 defense, or a single guy trying to make a difference, often the unstacked team simply switches bases, everyone goes offense and ignores defense. Since it works out like that, even mediocre cappers on the stacked team can do simple 200+ grabs and get home looking like epic players. Because nobody contested them on the stand or gave them much if any chase. A capper doing 300+ grabs just takes that to another level, no HoF or defense to stop them. And no offensive threat that can dislodge such a huge defense. I just played 6 maps in a row on a stacked/average server, each map I tried to pick the weaker team. First map, despite the enemy team looking stacked, we had the stacking mentality, which means we put about 6 guys on defense knowing the other team couldn't replicate it and we could let our few cappers get the win, and we won 5 - 1. Second map I again picked the weaker team, but this time the team I deemed as the "stackers", took on the stacking mentality, and put 7 guys on defense (3 Doombringers, 3 Tech, 1 Raider, All automatic) and had 2 cappers, my team did the opposite and we lost 5 - 0, the third map, same story 5 - 0, but then on the 4th my team which again looked weaker on paper, made up of mostly the same players took on the stacking mentality, and we won 5 - 1 with about 6 guys on defense and 500 deployables around the flag. Then it switched back for the final 2 maps before I got sick and quit. There's only so much I can take of CTF. It was a weird experience, I predict the weaker/unstacked team correctly 90% of the time, and we get steamrolled. I'm not used to my team winning unless I or another high level usually takes on a primary role and makes the difference to overhaul the stackers (if possible). But the fact that in that server my team just switched the stacking on its head for two of the maps was strange. Same guys changing from useless to pro-stacking like nothing, and the other way around. :S On the plus side though, stacked teams actually work like a team, solid defense, good chasers, and capable offense, which is all good... but not when it's against a team that can't replicate even 5% of that teamwork, which happens most of the time. _________________ Desired: Bind VGS commands to keys. Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap) Large Automatic Nerfs Decent Plasma Gun Nerf Large Jackal Nerf
Fri May 04, 2012 2:24 pm

irimi Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am Posts: 478	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... FreaK367 wrote: Most people think stacking begins with the offense, but it begins with the defense, "stacked" teams that steamroll other teams always have the best defense. Multiple Doombringers, Tech's etc.. that can stop the majority of attempts, and the unstacked team usually has 0 defense, or a single guy trying to make a difference, often the unstacked team simply switches bases, everyone goes offense and ignores defense. irimi wrote: In practically every 5-0 fast victory I've seen, it happens because one side has more defenders than the other. Who's doing the capping actually has little effect on the outcome of the game, because the biggest factor to a successful cap in pubs is whether or not your own flag is home by the time you get there. In every game where both sides have no defense and go all-out offense, the first team that sets up a defense wins. Without exception. Just sayin. caaok wrote: Any pubstar can dominate a pub game, which is the point. Pubs aren't balanced due to the inherent skill disparity. I arguably contributed the most to a win for our team using a variety of classes (there's no such thing as a true singlehanded win), whether as a pathfinder, doombringer, tech, raider, juggernaut... Anything is possible depending on who and what you're playing against. A good sentinel or shriker can arguably ruin a game much more so than any cowboy capper. Having more than one of those on a team = say goodbye to your chances of winning. Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. But many people (like the OP) fail to realize this because they play an extremely limited number of classes (DMB and Soldier, if I'm not mistaken) in a fairly limited number of roles... so the tunnel vision effect essentially makes them see that only one class/player is affecting the outcome of the game. As I said before, the people complaining about Pathfinders should spend some time playing Pathfinders in pubs - either as LD or as a capper - so that they can see what it's really like. At the moment, they're seeing things from an incredibly one-sided and narrow perspective because of their lack of experience in playing different roles.
Fri May 04, 2012 3:08 pm

Wogrim Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:58 pm Posts: 61	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... I haven't played a single Tribes CTF game because it doesn't look fun. From what I've seen the gameplay for cappers is spend 2 minutes per life skiing up to insane speeds such that if you manage to grab the flag it's almost impossible to stop you (using predetermined routes to maximize effectiveness), and everyone else fights each other but it doesn't matter much because it's so hard to stop the cappers. I won't be playing any CTF until they make it so that the capper needs his team a lot more, which would probably be done by limiting speed (by friction or maybe slowing you down when you grab the flag) so that cappers are at least somewhat chasable, or putting the flags in locations that you can only llama grab them (which would allow you to still throw the flag to someone going fast, but it would require a lot more teamwork to grab the flag).
Fri May 04, 2012 3:58 pm

disci Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:48 pm Posts: 1025 Location: Winland	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Oh great. Just what we need. More team work on pubs.
Fri May 04, 2012 4:46 pm

IronKane Beta Tester Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 497	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... SFJake wrote: IronKane wrote: caaok wrote: I think I've seen a proper back-to-front grab in a pub maybe... once? Once you made that statement, you lost all credibility. Crossfire. He was talking about Sunstar SPECIFICALLY you twat. Nobody ever does back to front on Sunstar when the generator is down. There is no back-to-front route on SunStar a$$wipe. Not unless you want to ski through the building and up and over the flag platform. Not what anyone would call a route.
Fri May 04, 2012 5:09 pm

SFJake Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:11 pm Posts: 381	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Thats still what he said you.. hum.. whatever. I'm not the one saying it. Heck, I don't know many routes at all. _________________ http://sfjake.zxq.net
Fri May 04, 2012 5:12 pm

IronKane Beta Tester Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm Posts: 497	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... SFJake wrote: Thats still what he said you.. hum.. whatever. I'm not the one saying it. Heck, I don't know many routes at all. I'll throw out the olive branch and aplogize for responding to name calling with name calling. Let's just agree to argue the points.
Fri May 04, 2012 5:16 pm

Giljo Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:19 pm Posts: 64	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... Bawtzki wrote: I wish all my Temple Ruins matches were that fast. AMEN to that. make that map grass, the volcano combined with a large map, huge base etc, makes it terrible.
Fri May 04, 2012 5:32 pm

Giljo Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:19 pm Posts: 64	Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF... If less than half the team would decide to play flag instead of capture the generator, things would be alot better. I've been in loaded games, with really 3 vs 3 playing D and O moving flag. The rest of the tards play TDM in the gen room. rank 0-15 should have maps with gens removed. Just kill assets and play flag. Introduce gens at rank 16 when folks are used to CTF.
Fri May 04, 2012 5:34 pm

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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

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Casus125

Beta Tester

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:31 am
Posts: 293

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

CTF is just a broken game mode, in order for it to be fun it would need about 100x more Sport, and 100x less Game.

Fri May 04, 2012 1:27 pm

FreaK367

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 587
Location: England
Steam Gamer Name: FreaK

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Stacking is the problem, but I think stacking is more of a mentality.

Most people think stacking begins with the offense, but it begins with the defense, "stacked" teams that steamroll other teams always have the best defense. Multiple Doombringers, Tech's etc.. that can stop the majority of attempts, and the unstacked team usually has 0 defense, or a single guy trying to make a difference, often the unstacked team simply switches bases, everyone goes offense and ignores defense.

Since it works out like that, even mediocre cappers on the stacked team can do simple 200+ grabs and get home looking like epic players. Because nobody contested them on the stand or gave them much if any chase. A capper doing 300+ grabs just takes that to another level, no HoF or defense to stop them. And no offensive threat that can dislodge such a huge defense.

I just played 6 maps in a row on a stacked/average server, each map I tried to pick the weaker team. First map, despite the enemy team looking stacked, we had the stacking mentality, which means we put about 6 guys on defense knowing the other team couldn't replicate it and we could let our few cappers get the win, and we won 5 - 1.

Second map I again picked the weaker team, but this time the team I deemed as the "stackers", took on the stacking mentality, and put 7 guys on defense (3 Doombringers, 3 Tech, 1 Raider, All automatic) and had 2 cappers, my team did the opposite and we lost 5 - 0, the third map, same story 5 - 0, but then on the 4th my team which again looked weaker on paper, made up of mostly the same players took on the stacking mentality, and we won 5 - 1 with about 6 guys on defense and 500 deployables around the flag. Then it switched back for the final 2 maps before I got sick and quit. There's only so much I can take of CTF.

It was a weird experience, I predict the weaker/unstacked team correctly 90% of the time, and we get steamrolled. I'm not used to my team winning unless I or another high level usually takes on a primary role and makes the difference to overhaul the stackers (if possible). But the fact that in that server my team just switched the stacking on its head for two of the maps was strange. Same guys changing from useless to pro-stacking like nothing, and the other way around.

:S

On the plus side though, stacked teams actually work like a team, solid defense, good chasers, and capable offense, which is all good... but not when it's against a team that can't replicate even 5% of that teamwork, which happens most of the time.

_________________

Desired:
Bind VGS commands to keys.
Full XP Refund for free/gold. (cheap)
Large Automatic Nerfs
Decent Plasma Gun Nerf
Large Jackal Nerf

Fri May 04, 2012 2:24 pm

irimi

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
Posts: 478

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

FreaK367 wrote:

Most people think stacking begins with the offense, but it begins with the defense, "stacked" teams that steamroll other teams always have the best defense. Multiple Doombringers, Tech's etc.. that can stop the majority of attempts, and the unstacked team usually has 0 defense, or a single guy trying to make a difference, often the unstacked team simply switches bases, everyone goes offense and ignores defense.

irimi wrote:

In practically every 5-0 fast victory I've seen, it happens because one side has more defenders than the other. Who's doing the capping actually has little effect on the outcome of the game, because the biggest factor to a successful cap in pubs is whether or not your own flag is home by the time you get there.

In every game where both sides have no defense and go all-out offense, the first team that sets up a defense wins. Without exception.

Just sayin.

caaok wrote:

Any pubstar can dominate a pub game, which is the point. Pubs aren't balanced due to the inherent skill disparity. I arguably contributed the most to a win for our team using a variety of classes (there's no such thing as a true singlehanded win), whether as a pathfinder, doombringer, tech, raider, juggernaut... Anything is possible depending on who and what you're playing against. A good sentinel or shriker can arguably ruin a game much more so than any cowboy capper. Having more than one of those on a team = say goodbye to your chances of winning.

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. But many people (like the OP) fail to realize this because they play an extremely limited number of classes (DMB and Soldier, if I'm not mistaken) in a fairly limited number of roles... so the tunnel vision effect essentially makes them see that only one class/player is affecting the outcome of the game.

As I said before, the people complaining about Pathfinders should spend some time playing Pathfinders in pubs - either as LD or as a capper - so that they can see what it's really like. At the moment, they're seeing things from an incredibly one-sided and narrow perspective because of their lack of experience in playing different roles.

Fri May 04, 2012 3:08 pm

Wogrim

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 61

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

I haven't played a single Tribes CTF game because it doesn't look fun.

From what I've seen the gameplay for cappers is spend 2 minutes per life skiing up to insane speeds such that if you manage to grab the flag it's almost impossible to stop you (using predetermined routes to maximize effectiveness), and everyone else fights each other but it doesn't matter much because it's so hard to stop the cappers.

I won't be playing any CTF until they make it so that the capper needs his team a lot more, which would probably be done by limiting speed (by friction or maybe slowing you down when you grab the flag) so that cappers are at least somewhat chasable, or putting the flags in locations that you can only llama grab them (which would allow you to still throw the flag to someone going fast, but it would require a lot more teamwork to grab the flag).

Fri May 04, 2012 3:58 pm

disci

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:48 pm
Posts: 1025
Location: Winland

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Oh great. Just what we need. More team work on pubs. :lol:

Fri May 04, 2012 4:46 pm

IronKane

Beta Tester

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 497

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

SFJake wrote:

IronKane wrote:

caaok wrote:

I think I've seen a proper back-to-front grab in a pub maybe... once?

Once you made that statement, you lost all credibility. Crossfire.

He was talking about Sunstar SPECIFICALLY you twat. Nobody ever does back to front on Sunstar when the generator is down.

There is no back-to-front route on SunStar a$$wipe. Not unless you want to ski through the building and up and over the flag platform. Not what anyone would call a route.

Fri May 04, 2012 5:09 pm

SFJake

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:11 pm
Posts: 381

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Thats still what he said you.. hum.. whatever. I'm not the one saying it. Heck, I don't know many routes at all.

_________________
http://sfjake.zxq.net

Fri May 04, 2012 5:12 pm

IronKane

Beta Tester

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 497

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

SFJake wrote:

Thats still what he said you.. hum.. whatever. I'm not the one saying it. Heck, I don't know many routes at all.

I'll throw out the olive branch and aplogize for responding to name calling with name calling. Let's just agree to argue the points.

Fri May 04, 2012 5:16 pm

Giljo

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:19 pm
Posts: 64

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

Bawtzki wrote:

I wish all my Temple Ruins matches were that fast.

AMEN to that. make that map grass, the volcano combined with a large map, huge base etc, makes it terrible.

Fri May 04, 2012 5:32 pm

Giljo

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:19 pm
Posts: 64

Re: Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...

If less than half the team would decide to play flag instead of capture the generator, things would be alot better.

I've been in loaded games, with really 3 vs 3 playing D and O moving flag. The rest of the tards play TDM in the gen room.

rank 0-15 should have maps with gens removed. Just kill assets and play flag.

Introduce gens at rank 16 when folks are used to CTF.

Fri May 04, 2012 5:34 pm

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Starting to absolutely loathe CTF...