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How to fix chasing and nerf punting with *ONE* perk.
Author	Message
ZProtoss Alpha Tester Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm Posts: 427	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. DibbzTheLoner wrote: ZProtoss wrote: Here's the problem with this. Reducing mass has a slew of other effects besides more impulse. It would require more testing - though might be workable. The other problem is that there's no health regen penalty mentioned here. -50 HP would not deter people from using this as a primary capping perk (or perk in general). The health regen penalty allows to to craft something thats very powerful, but uniquely suited to chasers only. I'm not intending my proposition as a "chaser only perk". It would work well with both chasing and capping, but with capping being hindered by collision damage and -50 HP. Capping would not be hindered very greatly by collision damage or -50 hp. You would have cappers running 400+ routes with ease on most maps, and 50 HP would do nothing to stop that. In terms of competitive play, if someone gets body blocked they're dead most of the time anyways - more collision damage is hardly a big downside. The main idea of the OP is clear. Providing a strong boost to chasing that otherwise leaves other game mechanics intact. Nothing more.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:02 am

inofor Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:22 am Posts: 567	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. I must say, I like this idea. +1
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:04 am

Tramadolol Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:47 am Posts: 610	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. An actual implentation of this perk would be Hirez's way of saying "there, it's fixed. stop bothering us". If you believe anything different you're quite delusional.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:05 am

turbomettwurst Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:55 am Posts: 48	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. I'd prefer the heavy flag as well, not much heavier, just a tad so everyone else has a slight advantage. But i guess the 300-Sanic freaks will cry to much... I wouldn't add any percs at the current state, the system is annoying enough as is since the grand-beta patch _________________ T2: -]Ctrl+Alt+Del[-
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:05 am

pikkuhukka Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:16 am Posts: 348	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. +1 also I LOVE YOU ZP YOURE SO <3 _________________
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:05 am

poiumty Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:07 pm Posts: 221	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. ZProtoss wrote: poiumty wrote: Problem with this is that a perk, and perks in general, aren't exactly made to have trade-offs. It does break the existing precedent by having a direct trade off within the perk itself. However, there's no reason why a new precedent can't be set in where you have more powerful perks that come at a cost of being specialized (via a downside). It's a stylistic concern rather than a straight gameplay concern really. Game design should try to be consistent. If they have to cut corners to balance the game, then they're not doing a good job. Not saying your suggestion isn't relevant, just that I don't like the idea of having a perk tailored straight for competitive play that isn't intuitive and seems to depend on the suicide to respawn approach. How about a perk that simply increases acceleration from projectiles or going downhill while not carrying the flag? On flag grab, the perk would turn off and cause you to lose speed (either a static amount or the amount gained from the perk in the first place). This would make the perk situational rather than trade-off based, and more suited for chasers rather than flag cappers. If it's still too good, just put it in the primary perk slot so it replaces Reach.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:14 am

Docatron Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:44 pm Posts: 1	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. +1 AND an opportunity for HiRez to make people spend more gold. Win/Win!
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:14 am

TeaL3af Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:30 pm Posts: 767	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. ZProtoss wrote: Tramadolol wrote: No. I don't like being punished for doing my job. Fix discjumping already... that's all. You can't straight buff disk jumping, because then you buff cappers who are using DJs on their routes. Most of the benefit that chasers would be getting would be drastically offset by dramatically faster routes. You could always introduce air resistance so it's hard to maintain high speeds (like over 250) and have the flag boost air resistance slightly then make disc jumping more effective. I like OP's idea though. Maybe it could be slower regen instead of no regen though, like x2 regen delay. Last edited by TeaL3af on Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:17 am

mikeax2 Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:56 pm Posts: 449 Location: Knoxville, TN	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. +1 You are now idea champion! _________________
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:17 am

DibbzTheLoner Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am Posts: 1616 Location: Australia Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz	Re: How to fix chasing with ONE perk. ZProtoss wrote: The main idea of the OP is clear. Providing a strong boost to chasing that otherwise leaves other game mechanics intact. Nothing more. You seem quick to dismiss my idea when yours essentially makes llama grabbing an extremely via tactic. Also cappers frequently explosive-jumper directly before they grab the flag as well as during the flag grab, so I don't see how this perk wouldn't be an EXCELLENT capper perk. Lack of health regen doesn't actually make it a bad capping perk, since the majority of flag grabs are made without having regenerated any health anyway. The flaws in my idea were no worse than the flaws in the OP idea. Anyway, I prettied it up in case it wasn't really clear what I was getting at: DibbzTheLoner wrote: Lightweight -10% Mass, -50 HP, Collision Weakness Upgrade 1: -5% Mass Upgrade 2: -5% Mass Upgrade 3: +20% Force from self damage *Collision Weakness: Colliding with enemy players and Force Fields deals (additional) damage to you based on velocity (the damage would be about 25% as strong as Super Heavy, stacking with Super Heavy, and enemy Forcefields would deal 25% more damage than they normally would) The end result of this is: +44% Velocity change from self-damage. +20% Velocity change from enemy damage. +20% Velocity from jetpacks, jumping and Boost pack. -50 HP All enemies you run into act like they have a weak form of Super Heavy. Force Fields are 25% more damaging. ANY class could make use of this, it's most useful for cappers/chasers but Heavies might also consider using it to improve their mobility, since -50 HP doesn't affect them much and they rarely reach the speeds at which Collion Weakness would be significant. If you don't feel it's quite as impeding to cappers as you wish I could add an effect that causes grabbing the flag to deal 50 damage to users of the perk. The heavy flag hurts your weak undernourished arm _________________ This signature is green. I like the colour green. Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green. Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much! Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:21 am

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How to fix chasing and nerf punting with *ONE* perk.

Author

Message

ZProtoss

Alpha Tester

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 pm
Posts: 427

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

DibbzTheLoner wrote:

ZProtoss wrote:

Here's the problem with this. Reducing mass has a slew of other effects besides more impulse. It would require more testing - though might be workable.

The other problem is that there's no health regen penalty mentioned here. -50 HP would not deter people from using this as a primary capping perk (or perk in general). The health regen penalty allows to to craft something thats very powerful, but uniquely suited to chasers only.

I'm not intending my proposition as a "chaser only perk". It would work well with both chasing and capping, but with capping being hindered by collision damage and -50 HP.

Capping would not be hindered very greatly by collision damage or -50 hp. You would have cappers running 400+ routes with ease on most maps, and 50 HP would do nothing to stop that. In terms of competitive play, if someone gets body blocked they're dead most of the time anyways - more collision damage is hardly a big downside.

The main idea of the OP is clear. Providing a strong boost to chasing that otherwise leaves other game mechanics intact. Nothing more.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:02 am

inofor

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:22 am
Posts: 567

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

I must say, I like this idea. +1

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:04 am

Tramadolol

Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:47 am
Posts: 610

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

An actual implentation of this perk would be Hirez's way of saying "there, it's fixed. stop bothering us".
If you believe anything different you're quite delusional.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:05 am

turbomettwurst

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:55 am
Posts: 48

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

I'd prefer the heavy flag as well, not much heavier, just a tad so everyone else has a slight advantage. But i guess the 300-Sanic freaks will cry to much...

I wouldn't add any percs at the current state, the system is annoying enough as is since the grand-beta patch

_________________
T2: -]Ctrl+Alt+Del[-

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:05 am

pikkuhukka

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:16 am
Posts: 348

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

+1

also

I LOVE YOU ZP YOURE SO <3

_________________

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:05 am

poiumty

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:07 pm
Posts: 221

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

ZProtoss wrote:

poiumty wrote:

Problem with this is that a perk, and perks in general, aren't exactly made to have trade-offs.

It does break the existing precedent by having a direct trade off within the perk itself. However, there's no reason why a new precedent can't be set in where you have more powerful perks that come at a cost of being specialized (via a downside).

It's a stylistic concern rather than a straight gameplay concern really.

Game design should try to be consistent. If they have to cut corners to balance the game, then they're not doing a good job. Not saying your suggestion isn't relevant, just that I don't like the idea of having a perk tailored straight for competitive play that isn't intuitive and seems to depend on the suicide to respawn approach.

How about a perk that simply increases acceleration from projectiles or going downhill while not carrying the flag? On flag grab, the perk would turn off and cause you to lose speed (either a static amount or the amount gained from the perk in the first place).
This would make the perk situational rather than trade-off based, and more suited for chasers rather than flag cappers. If it's still too good, just put it in the primary perk slot so it replaces Reach.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:14 am

Docatron

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:44 pm
Posts: 1

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

+1

AND an opportunity for HiRez to make people spend more gold. Win/Win!

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:14 am

TeaL3af

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:30 pm
Posts: 767

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

ZProtoss wrote:

Tramadolol wrote:

No.
I don't like being punished for doing my job.
Fix discjumping already... that's all.

You can't straight buff disk jumping, because then you buff cappers who are using DJs on their routes. Most of the benefit that chasers would be getting would be drastically offset by dramatically faster routes.

You could always introduce air resistance so it's hard to maintain high speeds (like over 250) and have the flag boost air resistance slightly then make disc jumping more effective.

I like OP's idea though. Maybe it could be slower regen instead of no regen though, like x2 regen delay.

Last edited by TeaL3af on Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:17 am

mikeax2

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:56 pm
Posts: 449
Location: Knoxville, TN

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

+1

You are now idea champion!

_________________

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:17 am

DibbzTheLoner

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 am
Posts: 1616
Location: Australia
Steam Gamer Name: Dibbz

Re: How to fix chasing with *ONE* perk.

ZProtoss wrote:

The main idea of the OP is clear. Providing a strong boost to chasing that otherwise leaves other game mechanics intact. Nothing more.

You seem quick to dismiss my idea when yours essentially makes llama grabbing an extremely via tactic. Also cappers frequently explosive-jumper directly before they grab the flag as well as during the flag grab, so I don't see how this perk wouldn't be an EXCELLENT capper perk.

Lack of health regen doesn't actually make it a bad capping perk, since the majority of flag grabs are made without having regenerated any health anyway.

The flaws in my idea were no worse than the flaws in the OP idea.

Anyway, I prettied it up in case it wasn't really clear what I was getting at:

DibbzTheLoner wrote:

Lightweight
-10% Mass, -50 HP, Collision Weakness
Upgrade 1: -5% Mass
Upgrade 2: -5% Mass
Upgrade 3: +20% Force from self damage

*Collision Weakness: Colliding with enemy players and Force Fields deals (additional) damage to you based on velocity (the damage would be about 25% as strong as Super Heavy, stacking with Super Heavy, and enemy Forcefields would deal 25% more damage than they normally would)

The end result of this is:

+44% Velocity change from self-damage.
+20% Velocity change from enemy damage.
+20% Velocity from jetpacks, jumping and Boost pack.
-50 HP
All enemies you run into act like they have a weak form of Super Heavy.
Force Fields are 25% more damaging.

ANY class could make use of this, it's most useful for cappers/chasers but Heavies might also consider using it to improve their mobility, since -50 HP doesn't affect them much and they rarely reach the speeds at which Collion Weakness would be significant.

If you don't feel it's quite as impeding to cappers as you wish I could add an effect that causes grabbing the flag to deal 50 damage to users of the perk. The heavy flag hurts your weak undernourished arm

_________________
This signature is green. I like the colour green.
Wait, why are you still reading? It should be obvious that this signature is pointless and just here to be green.
Stop reading already! You're procrastinating too much!

Last edited by DibbzTheLoner on Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:21 am

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How to fix chasing and nerf punting with ONE perk.