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Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing
Author	Message
johndis Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:10 am Posts: 36	Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing
Thu May 03, 2012 4:58 pm

wooser Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:07 pm Posts: 695	Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing I'm still warey to a fire rate nerf and not an arm-time instead. It'd be possible to keep the jackal from being overnerfed with an arm time, but a fire rate nerf would need to be juuuuust right in order to keep it from being too weak. And hi-rez aren't too good at doing juuuuust right. Again just 1/2 seconds before a shot can be detonated would make a huge difference and would likely be enough to keep the thing balanced with the SSF while not effecting how useful it can be when used well.
Thu May 03, 2012 5:01 pm

johndis Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:10 am Posts: 36	Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing really tho the thing should maybe just reload faster than it can fire two rounds, like it would take as long as it takes to fire three rounds now to fire two. fast reload means you could do one/two mine bursts easier in a straight shootout, but placing three would take twice as much time.
Thu May 03, 2012 5:10 pm

Cyanistic Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:16 pm Posts: 3783 Steam Gamer Name: Cyanistic	Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing johndis wrote: Because more damage = better? To fix an underpowered weapon, it makes a lot of sense to make it do more damage. An extra mine is one way to do it, 3 more powerful mines is yet another way. Handt thought of that though. It isn't underpowered though!
Thu May 03, 2012 5:15 pm

DrEuthanasia Beta Tester Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm Posts: 1101	Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing DeadCellSpawn wrote: hmmm last time i watched the promo video for the cloak and dagger patch the infiltrator fired the jackal directly at the enemy without laying traps and never once in the entire video did they ever say it was only for laying traps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNqaiUl27MQ go check for yourself they never ever say only use this weapon for laying traps or you will upset the balance of the game. that has always been the complainers putting arbitrary rules on the gun because they deem it cheap and unfair. Great example. They spared exactly two whole sentences about the Jackal in that video, one talking about how you can set up traps if you get caught by a motion sensor, and the other one about how reloading it causes its rounds to detonate. How about we look at the weapon's description instead? "The Jackal fires up to three rounds that stick to any surface, and are remote triggered for detonation. Perfect for setting up traps and destroying objectives from a safe distance." Looks to me like Hi-Rez has a development team composed of fallible humans just like us who didn't anticipate that it would be used to frag mediums from stealth without ever giving them a chance to fight back or putting the Infiltrator at any significant risk. Otherwise, they probably would have mentioned that in the video or written it into the weapon description, given how that exact gameplay remains a dominant portion of the Jackal's in-game use.
Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 4848 Location: NA East	Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing Trilandian wrote: So wait, the problem you have with the Thumper is its range? Really?!? On the TCN. My problem is the TCN is the ONLY CLASS WHO'S PACK SHOOTS AT YOU. Am I the only one who gets turret kills anymore? Yes he is the only class that has a slot2 that doesn't damage players (unless you count sabers, which I do), but he is also the only class who has a pack that does, in an active way. There is no reason to give him two "strongest in slot" weapons for slot1 as if to compensate for his lack of second weapon. He doesn't lack a second weapon. In fact, the FACT that he can shoot you with both of his weapons simultaneously when using them properly is insanely powerful, and should be kept in mind. Yesterday defending the Kata gen room, I solo stopped a coordinated effort to attack my gen. Two well placed turrets, a TCNG, and some TCN4 fire, and I triple killed a BRT, RDR, and INF, while taking Fractal damage (was less risky than taking the sticky damage). The RDR had plasma, but made the mistake of coming with shield. Jammer would have f*cked me. That said, once I saw plasma I killed him quickly, so that would have ended jamming (and he would have died faster without that shield) but if they focused on my turrets (which weren't in attention drawing places) It still could have changed the game. TCN is my second most played class. He got too much love in the mega patch. I'm also okay with the Motion Sensor arming time suggestion. Also saw this thread this morning, curious to see what some of you think. DeadCellSpawn wrote: who are you to say what the jackal was or wasn't designed for? are you the one that made the jackal and put it in the game? NO then all you are doing is speculating. I don't think it matters. If HiRez knew what they were doing, this argument might be valid. It obviously isn't, because they obviously don't. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Thu May 03, 2012 5:26 pm

DrEuthanasia Beta Tester Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm Posts: 1101	Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing wooser wrote: I'm still warey to a fire rate nerf and not an arm-time instead. It'd be possible to keep the jackal from being overnerfed with an arm time, but a fire rate nerf would need to be juuuuust right in order to keep it from being too weak. And hi-rez aren't too good at doing juuuuust right. Again just 1/2 seconds before a shot can be detonated would make a huge difference and would likely be enough to keep the thing balanced with the SSF while not effecting how useful it can be when used well. Agreed, but I'm willing to settle on whatever nerf people can actually agree on, so long as it fixes the real problem of Jackal ambushes being impossible to react to in time. More than anything, I want something to actually get done. It doesn't have to be the ideal solution so long as it is one.
Thu May 03, 2012 5:48 pm

WitchDoctorVega Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am Posts: 2482 Location: On the coast, NH Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..	Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing DrEuthanasia wrote: wooser wrote: I'm still warey to a fire rate nerf and not an arm-time instead. It'd be possible to keep the jackal from being overnerfed with an arm time, but a fire rate nerf would need to be juuuuust right in order to keep it from being too weak. And hi-rez aren't too good at doing juuuuust right. Again just 1/2 seconds before a shot can be detonated would make a huge difference and would likely be enough to keep the thing balanced with the SSF while not effecting how useful it can be when used well. Agreed, but I'm willing to settle on whatever nerf people can actually agree on, so long as it fixes the real problem of Jackal ambushes being impossible to react to in time. More than anything, I want something to actually get done. It doesn't have to be the ideal solution so long as it is one. +1 _________________ CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!
Thu May 03, 2012 5:52 pm

johndis Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:10 am Posts: 36	Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing It honestly doesnt make sense that your suit feasibly has the ability to tell you when a missle is locked on to you, but not when a grenade is stuck to your butt
Thu May 03, 2012 5:54 pm

Nark51 Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:54 pm Posts: 854 Location: United Kingdom	Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing The Thumper is bad because it's on a class that shouldn't have it. It's overpowered in the sense that if the TCN wanted to be a Soldier, he could. Just equip the Thumper and a Sawed-off Shotgun or Sparrow Pistol, drop 2 turrets and walah. You have a Soldier-clone with 2 auto-aiming rapid-firing turrets. And while people think that a TCN's only enemy is an INF, and that if the Thumper was nerfed to Thumper DX damage levels it wouldn't change anything, they're failing to take in damage from other sources, or the Thumper's new effectiveness versus a Raider or Brute. A good player using TCN with the loadout I suggested can dominate anything in an indoor environment, because the "penalties" of the class compared to Soldier are null. Soldier has more energy, a bit more runspeed with the Utility Pack? An extra grenade? It all means nothing when you have a 35-ammo Thumper and 2 turrets firing on the enemy. Only after a change is made to the Thumper should the Plasma Gun and Jackal be further nerfed, because as it stands it seems a lot like HiRez is releasing overpowered guns to counter overpowered guns on 3 classes that all rival eachother in common gameplay (INFvsRDR with Jammer, TCNvsRDR, TCNvsINF), instead of fixing the problem. My suggestions: Technician Thumper damage lowered from 910/650-325 to 770/600-275 to match the Thumper DX. Plasma Gun hitbox size reduced a further 10% (still seems far too big compared to the Spinfusor and similar weapons, to me). Maybe an ammo capacity reduction on rounds-per-mag. Jackal, reduce its damage to 400 per projectile, give it a one second arming time to prevent abusing airbursts. _________________ Important things: Possible solutions to D-stacking and ways to incentivize O Nark, certified #1 Chaser & #1 Scrambler Capper in Europe. Also #1 in Rabbit. Last edited by Nark51 on Thu May 03, 2012 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu May 03, 2012 5:55 pm

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Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

Author

Message

johndis

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:10 am
Posts: 36

Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

Thu May 03, 2012 4:58 pm

wooser

Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:07 pm
Posts: 695

Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

I'm still warey to a fire rate nerf and not an arm-time instead. It'd be possible to keep the jackal from being overnerfed with an arm time, but a fire rate nerf would need to be juuuuust right in order to keep it from being too weak. And hi-rez aren't too good at doing juuuuust right.

Again just 1/2 seconds before a shot can be detonated would make a huge difference and would likely be enough to keep the thing balanced with the SSF while not effecting how useful it can be when used well.

Thu May 03, 2012 5:01 pm

johndis

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:10 am
Posts: 36

Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

really tho the thing should maybe just reload faster than it can fire two rounds, like it would take as long as it takes to fire three rounds now to fire two. fast reload means you could do one/two mine bursts easier in a straight shootout, but placing three would take twice as much time.

Thu May 03, 2012 5:10 pm

Cyanistic

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:16 pm
Posts: 3783
Steam Gamer Name: Cyanistic

Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

johndis wrote:

Because more damage = better? To fix an underpowered weapon, it makes a lot of sense to make it do more damage. An extra mine is one way to do it, 3 more powerful mines is yet another way. Handt thought of that though.

It isn't underpowered though!

Thu May 03, 2012 5:15 pm

DrEuthanasia

Beta Tester

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 1101

Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

DeadCellSpawn wrote:

hmmm last time i watched the promo video for the cloak and dagger patch the infiltrator fired the jackal directly at the enemy without laying traps and never once in the entire video did they ever say it was only for laying traps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNqaiUl27MQ

go check for yourself they never ever say only use this weapon for laying traps or you will upset the balance of the game. that has always been the complainers putting arbitrary rules on the gun because they deem it cheap and unfair.

Great example. They spared exactly two whole sentences about the Jackal in that video, one talking about how you can set up traps if you get caught by a motion sensor, and the other one about how reloading it causes its rounds to detonate.

How about we look at the weapon's description instead?

"The Jackal fires up to three rounds that stick to any surface, and are remote triggered for detonation. Perfect for setting up traps and destroying objectives from a safe distance."

Looks to me like Hi-Rez has a development team composed of fallible humans just like us who didn't anticipate that it would be used to frag mediums from stealth without ever giving them a chance to fight back or putting the Infiltrator at any significant risk. Otherwise, they probably would have mentioned that in the video or written it into the weapon description, given how that exact gameplay remains a dominant portion of the Jackal's in-game use.

Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 4848
Location: NA East

Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

Trilandian wrote:

So wait, the problem you have with the Thumper is its range? Really?!?

On the TCN. My problem is the TCN is the ONLY CLASS WHO'S PACK SHOOTS AT YOU. Am I the only one who gets turret kills anymore? Yes he is the only class that has a slot2 that doesn't damage players (unless you count sabers, which I do), but he is also the only class who has a pack that does, in an active way.

There is no reason to give him two "strongest in slot" weapons for slot1 as if to compensate for his lack of second weapon. He doesn't lack a second weapon. In fact, the FACT that he can shoot you with both of his weapons simultaneously when using them properly is insanely powerful, and should be kept in mind.

Yesterday defending the Kata gen room, I solo stopped a coordinated effort to attack my gen. Two well placed turrets, a TCNG, and some TCN4 fire, and I triple killed a BRT, RDR, and INF, while taking Fractal damage (was less risky than taking the sticky damage). The RDR had plasma, but made the mistake of coming with shield. Jammer would have f*cked me. That said, once I saw plasma I killed him quickly, so that would have ended jamming (and he would have died faster without that shield) but if they focused on my turrets (which weren't in attention drawing places) It still could have changed the game.

TCN is my second most played class. He got too much love in the mega patch. I'm also okay with the Motion Sensor arming time suggestion.

Also saw this thread this morning, curious to see what some of you think.

DeadCellSpawn wrote:

who are you to say what the jackal was or wasn't designed for? are you the one that made the jackal and put it in the game? NO then all you are doing is speculating.

I don't think it matters. If HiRez knew what they were doing, this argument might be valid. It obviously isn't, because they obviously don't.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Thu May 03, 2012 5:26 pm

DrEuthanasia

Beta Tester

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 1101

Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

wooser wrote:

Agreed, but I'm willing to settle on whatever nerf people can actually agree on, so long as it fixes the real problem of Jackal ambushes being impossible to react to in time. More than anything, I want something to actually get done. It doesn't have to be the ideal solution so long as it is one.

Thu May 03, 2012 5:48 pm

WitchDoctorVega

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 2482
Location: On the coast, NH
Steam Gamer Name: ..WitchDoctor..

Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

DrEuthanasia wrote:

wooser wrote:

_________________
CYBRIDS 4 LYF! Metagens 4 ever!

Thu May 03, 2012 5:52 pm

johndis

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:10 am
Posts: 36

Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

It honestly doesnt make sense that your suit feasibly has the ability to tell you when a missle is locked on to you, but not when a grenade is stuck to your butt

Thu May 03, 2012 5:54 pm

Nark51

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:54 pm
Posts: 854
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing

The Thumper is bad because it's on a class that shouldn't have it. It's overpowered in the sense that if the TCN wanted to be a Soldier, he could. Just equip the Thumper and a Sawed-off Shotgun or Sparrow Pistol, drop 2 turrets and walah. You have a Soldier-clone with 2 auto-aiming rapid-firing turrets.

And while people think that a TCN's only enemy is an INF, and that if the Thumper was nerfed to Thumper DX damage levels it wouldn't change anything, they're failing to take in damage from other sources, or the Thumper's new effectiveness versus a Raider or Brute.

A good player using TCN with the loadout I suggested can dominate anything in an indoor environment, because the "penalties" of the class compared to Soldier are null. Soldier has more energy, a bit more runspeed with the Utility Pack? An extra grenade? It all means nothing when you have a 35-ammo Thumper and 2 turrets firing on the enemy.

Only after a change is made to the Thumper should the Plasma Gun and Jackal be further nerfed, because as it stands it seems a lot like HiRez is releasing overpowered guns to counter overpowered guns on 3 classes that all rival eachother in common gameplay (INFvsRDR with Jammer, TCNvsRDR, TCNvsINF), instead of fixing the problem.

My suggestions:

Technician Thumper damage lowered from 910/650-325 to 770/600-275 to match the Thumper DX.

Plasma Gun hitbox size reduced a further 10% (still seems far too big compared to the Spinfusor and similar weapons, to me). Maybe an ammo capacity reduction on rounds-per-mag.

Jackal, reduce its damage to 400 per projectile, give it a one second arming time to prevent abusing airbursts.

_________________
Important things:
Possible solutions to D-stacking and ways to incentivize O

Nark, certified #1 Chaser & #1 Scrambler Capper in Europe. Also #1 in Rabbit.

Last edited by Nark51 on Thu May 03, 2012 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu May 03, 2012 5:55 pm

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Jackal and Plasma Gun. Both Need Fixing