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The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.
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Frostiken Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am Posts: 1045	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Tamburlaine wrote: Even more'n general defence improvements (and doombringer-specific improvements), I would god d*** kill for better chasing. Better self-impulse from standstill, "flag drag", maybe the doombringer can get a new secondary that launchers pathfinders rather than rockets; I don't care. Chasing is fun to do, fun to have done to you, and fun to watch. And you know what another word for fun to watch is? ESPORTS. God Bless America. I'm just going to +1 everything in this post. Also, what's with the pics
Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:10 pm

DrEuthanasia Beta Tester Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm Posts: 1101	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. The thing about air resistance is that it does impose a very significant speed cap, and not just for flag runners. If they hit that cap, you still won't ever be able to catch up to them because no matter how much you can accelerate, you'll eventually hit the same cap and won't be able to close distance any longer. Adding friction to skiing is another issue with a similar problem, but chasers being far more capable of disk jumping would at least grant them some kind of advantage. The answer that you're really looking for is to give the flag mass. Make it slow down anyone holding it so that they simply cannot achieve the same speeds as an unburdened chaser. It would make escorts far more important too, since you'd want someone on your team to pass the thing to if it ended up slowing you down too much. Tamburlaine wrote: Maybe the doombringer can get a new secondary that launchers pathfinders rather than rockets; I don't care. Chasing is fun to do, fun to have done to you, and fun to watch. People laughed when, after the Cloak & Dagger update, I suggested that the Brute get a new grenade named "Thrown Infiltrator". If only they knew just how serious I was being.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:10 pm

Tamburlaine Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:13 am Posts: 1859	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Frostiken wrote: Tamburlaine wrote: Even more'n general defence improvements (and doombringer-specific improvements), I would god d*** kill for better chasing. Better self-impulse from standstill, "flag drag", maybe the doombringer can get a new secondary that launchers pathfinders rather than rockets; I don't care. Chasing is fun to do, fun to have done to you, and fun to watch. And you know what another word for fun to watch is? ESPORTS. God Bless America. I'm just going to +1 everything in this post. Also, what's with the pics I had an explanation written up, but it's simpler just to link you to the Liquipedia page for Elly the ESPORTS Elephant. _________________ oh god where does this link go how did it get here I am not good with computer
Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:26 pm

HazzleHOF Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:50 am Posts: 266	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Yeah, Pathfinders are the elephants in the room when it comes to discussing balance about this game. They do their job a little too well and it's the go-to class for capping and chasing -- or hell -- pretty much most other positions. At least in Legions, the cost of going really fast was that you'd often have little health and regen didn't kick in until you stopped moving entirely for a few seconds. In Ascend the best cappers can freakin' get back to their flag in seconds thanks to the size of most maps and the ridiculous amount of speed that allows them to fly so far. Besides those point, cappers should not have bleeping boost grenades either, period. You should never be able to gain insta-sanics speed by simply slapping two nitron grenades against your buns. Attaining good speed is something that should take some time. Furthermore, there's the quick-thinking decision of which kind of route should you take (short, medium, long) depending on if your flag is home, if the enemy has it and how far from his own flag is he? Oh, and bleep Reach. It needs to go. _________________ "I love the smell of rage-quit in the morning."
Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:28 pm

SkepticTA Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm Posts: 3062	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Frostiken wrote: <rant snipped> You're doing it wrong. _________________ (AHK) T:A Physics Profiler
Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:54 pm

lawlertron Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:07 pm Posts: 517	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Tamburlaine wrote: Even more'n general defence improvements (and doombringer-specific improvements), I would god d*** kill for better chasing. Better self-impulse from standstill, "flag drag", maybe the doombringer can get a new secondary that launchers pathfinders rather than rockets; I don't care. Chasing is fun to do, fun to have done to you, and fun to watch. And you know what another word for fun to watch is? ESPORTS. God Bless America. Esports is why pub defense is so terrible. Because pro teams have amazing snipers. While 90% of pub snipers are awful, and most of the rest are still pretty bad. Luckily most pub pathfinders are also awful and easily stopped by a good DMB on flag.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:03 pm

Chargolith Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:40 pm Posts: 43	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. I always groan when, at the start of the game, you see a dozen pathfinders hightailing it to the enemy. It means I'm about to become the enemy teams whipping boy. I think defense needs tweeked a bit. I just don't think one guy flying at 250k should be able to get past 5 defenders. It happens a lot. Imagine if there were only one defender and 5 attackers, it'd be a joke. They should at least have to coordinate a little.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:14 pm

ctrl-k Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:48 am Posts: 89	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. HazzleHOF wrote: Yeah, Pathfinders are the elephants in the room when it comes to discussing balance about this game. They do their job a little too well and it's the go-to class for capping and chasing -- or hell -- pretty much most other positions. At least in Legions, the cost of going really fast was that you'd often have little health and regen didn't kick in until you stopped moving entirely for a few seconds. In Ascend the best cappers can freakin' get back to their flag in seconds thanks to the size of most maps and the ridiculous amount of speed that allows them to fly so far. Besides those point, cappers should not have bleeping boost grenades either, period. You should never be able to gain insta-sanics speed by simply slapping two nitron grenades against your buns. Attaining good speed is something that should take some time. Furthermore, there's the quick-thinking decision of which kind of route should you take (short, medium, long) depending on if your flag is home, if the enemy has it and how far from his own flag is he? Oh, and bleep Reach. It needs to go. So, one guy is complaining about not being able to chase, and you want to take away the only way to actually accomplish that, ie. thrust + nitron jumps?
Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:32 pm

ctrl-k Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:48 am Posts: 89	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. Chargolith wrote: I always groan when, at the start of the game, you see a dozen pathfinders hightailing it to the enemy. It means I'm about to become the enemy teams whipping boy. I think defense needs tweeked a bit. I just don't think one guy flying at 250k should be able to get past 5 defenders. It happens a lot. Imagine if there were only one defender and 5 attackers, it'd be a joke. They should at least have to coordinate a little. A single pathfinder will only get past 5 defenders, if those defenders are completely clueless as to what they should be doing. A lack of player skill is not a balance problem.
Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:39 pm

CherubCow Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:21 pm Posts: 113	Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game. ctrl-k wrote: So, one guy is complaining about not being able to chase, and you want to take away the only way to actually accomplish that, ie. thrust + nitron jumps? We should take away disc/explosion jumping while at it This is making me wonder if I should post a video of chasing.. because chasing is not dead in Ascend. It's difficult on Drydock, of course, but otherwise the amount of routes that cannot be chased number few. Even against the uber-fast cappers there can be good counters... I spend an inordinate amount of time playing LightDefense though :p
Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:45 pm

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The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

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Frostiken

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:42 am
Posts: 1045

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Tamburlaine wrote:

Even more'n general defence improvements (and doombringer-specific improvements), I would god d*** kill for better chasing. Better self-impulse from standstill, "flag drag", maybe the doombringer can get a new secondary that launchers pathfinders rather than rockets; I don't care. Chasing is fun to do, fun to have done to you, and fun to watch.

And you know what another word for fun to watch is?

ESPORTS.

God Bless America.

I'm just going to +1 everything in this post.

Also, what's with the pics

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:10 pm

DrEuthanasia

Beta Tester

Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 1101

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

The thing about air resistance is that it does impose a very significant speed cap, and not just for flag runners. If they hit that cap, you still won't ever be able to catch up to them because no matter how much you can accelerate, you'll eventually hit the same cap and won't be able to close distance any longer. Adding friction to skiing is another issue with a similar problem, but chasers being far more capable of disk jumping would at least grant them some kind of advantage.

The answer that you're really looking for is to give the flag mass. Make it slow down anyone holding it so that they simply cannot achieve the same speeds as an unburdened chaser. It would make escorts far more important too, since you'd want someone on your team to pass the thing to if it ended up slowing you down too much.

Tamburlaine wrote:

Maybe the doombringer can get a new secondary that launchers pathfinders rather than rockets; I don't care. Chasing is fun to do, fun to have done to you, and fun to watch.

People laughed when, after the Cloak & Dagger update, I suggested that the Brute get a new grenade named "Thrown Infiltrator".

If only they knew just how serious I was being.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:10 pm

Tamburlaine

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:13 am
Posts: 1859

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Frostiken wrote:

Tamburlaine wrote:

God Bless America.

I'm just going to +1 everything in this post.

Also, what's with the pics

I had an explanation written up, but it's simpler just to link you to the Liquipedia page for Elly the ESPORTS Elephant.

_________________
oh god where does this link go how did it get here I am not good with computer

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:26 pm

HazzleHOF

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:50 am
Posts: 266

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Yeah, Pathfinders are the elephants in the room when it comes to discussing balance about this game. They do their job a little too well and it's the go-to class for capping and chasing -- or hell -- pretty much most other positions. At least in Legions, the cost of going really fast was that you'd often have little health and regen didn't kick in until you stopped moving entirely for a few seconds. In Ascend the best cappers can freakin' get back to their flag in seconds thanks to the size of most maps and the ridiculous amount of speed that allows them to fly so far.

Besides those point, cappers should not have bleeping boost grenades either, period. You should never be able to gain insta-sanics speed by simply slapping two nitron grenades against your buns. Attaining good speed is something that should take some time. Furthermore, there's the quick-thinking decision of which kind of route should you take (short, medium, long) depending on if your flag is home, if the enemy has it and how far from his own flag is he?

Oh, and bleep Reach. It needs to go.

_________________

"I love the smell of rage-quit in the morning."

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:28 pm

SkepticTA

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 3062

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Frostiken wrote:

You're doing it wrong.

_________________

(AHK) T:A Physics Profiler

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:54 pm

lawlertron

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:07 pm
Posts: 517

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Tamburlaine wrote:

God Bless America.

Esports is why pub defense is so terrible. Because pro teams have amazing snipers. While 90% of pub snipers are awful, and most of the rest are still pretty bad.

Luckily most pub pathfinders are also awful and easily stopped by a good DMB on flag.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:03 pm

Chargolith

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:40 pm
Posts: 43

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

I always groan when, at the start of the game, you see a dozen pathfinders hightailing it to the enemy. It means I'm about to become the enemy teams whipping boy.

I think defense needs tweeked a bit. I just don't think one guy flying at 250k should be able to get past 5 defenders. It happens a lot. Imagine if there were only one defender and 5 attackers, it'd be a joke. They should at least have to coordinate a little.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:14 pm

ctrl-k

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:48 am
Posts: 89

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

HazzleHOF wrote:

So, one guy is complaining about not being able to chase, and you want to take away the only way to actually accomplish that, ie. thrust + nitron jumps?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:32 pm

ctrl-k

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:48 am
Posts: 89

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

Chargolith wrote:

A single pathfinder will only get past 5 defenders, if those defenders are completely clueless as to what they should be doing. A lack of player skill is not a balance problem.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:39 pm

CherubCow

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:21 pm
Posts: 113

Re: The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.

ctrl-k wrote:

So, one guy is complaining about not being able to chase, and you want to take away the only way to actually accomplish that, ie. thrust + nitron jumps?

We should take away disc/explosion jumping while at it :roll:

This is making me wonder if I should post a video of chasing.. because chasing is not dead in Ascend. It's difficult on Drydock, of course, but otherwise the amount of routes that cannot be chased number few. Even against the uber-fast cappers there can be good counters... I spend an inordinate amount of time playing LightDefense though :p

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:45 pm

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The elephant in the room: Pathfinders are ruining this game.